Seeking your thoughts on new drawer system (2 Viewers)

[slimbuddha]

I really like the design, but I would also like to see it reversed: fridge on passenger. Ultimately, I plan to be able to fold down or remove the 60 portion of the middle seat and be able to lay down for trips when I am solo. Even with the top half having the cage, I could still slip my legs under.

 

[TrekboxX]

I really like the design, but I would also like to see it reversed: fridge on passenger. Ultimately, I plan to be able to fold down or remove the 60 portion of the middle seat and be able to lay down for trips when I am solo. Even with the top half having the cage, I could still slip my legs under.

Thank you for the input! Yes, you could absolutely slip your legs under the cage and sleep. Actually, the new design raises the bottom of the cage 2" for just this reason.

Originally, I was hoping to be able to offer it both ways- fridge on left and right. But it just isn't possible without making two completely different systems (which I may still do, depending on what you all want). I chose to do the fridge on the driver's side. I'll explain my reasoning, and I'd love your feedback. Here are a few things I thought about when making this decision:

Pros:
1. The fridge on the driver's side increases your visibility out the back window by placing the higher-sitting fridge directly behind the driver. Unless you're fully loaded. Then you can't see out the back, anyways.
2. Normally, I believe a full drawer (at least for me) with tools, etc. weighs much more than a fridge. Placing the drawer on the passenger side helps offset the driver/battery/etc. - the 100 seems to sit driver side low to begin with.
3. Day to day, if you need to haul a longer item, you can just tumble the single second row seat and still have the other two available (I keep the little one in the 2nd row center).
4. Because the rear cargo area is asymmetrical, having the fridge on the driver side gives you quite a bit more space between the fridge barrier and the side of the truck. This space is very usable (around 8"+). On the pass side it would be a tight fit (around 6") for anything except pretty small items.


Cons:
1. Putting it on the passenger side seems to be the "cool" way. Maybe because across the pond they drive from the right side?
2. Yes, you would have to tumble the whole second row to sleep on the pass side. I don't see this as a huge deal, at least for me. I don't pack cargo on the seats.
3. You need another 3' or so of electrical wire to run across to driver's side.

That's all I can think of for now. I'd love to hear what you guys think. Fridge left or right?

David

 

[sonk76]

1. The fridge on the driver's side increases your visibility out the back window by placing the higher-sitting fridge directly behind the driver. Unless you're fully loaded. Then you can't see out the back, anyways.

While I don't have a strong perspective on which side is better, I did want to point out that by the time folks are adding drawer systems, many have already added (or are contemplating adding) tire carriers to the rear, which tend to have the spare tire on the passenger side. At least for those folks, the visibility point might be reversed (i.e., the spare tire already blocks visibility on the passenger side, so the fridge on that side would not take away any more visibility.)

Not suggesting that this alone would shift the balance the other way, but just wanted to bring up in case you were not already considering it.

 

[hoser]

In reality, the only lost space is in the thickness of the drawer sides themselves. If you look at the metal systems, they usually have at least 3/4" thick structure for the box anyways. They also use wood for the top.

I'm not sure what you mean 3/4" box structure... most look like Slee's old drawers. The 'rail' on the side of the drawer is just for the slide mechanism... which can be substituted for accuride type you are using.

So it's not just the sides. If you have two drawers side by side and count all the layers, it's 7-8 layers of metal vs 7-8 layers of wood. If you count front to back, it's 3-4 layers of wood/metal depending on the design.

7x.75" wood is 5.25" total

7-8 layers of metal is probably 1/2" total?

 

[TrekboxX]

I'm not sure what you mean 3/4" box structure... most look like Slee's old drawers. The 'rail' on the side of the drawer is just for the slide mechanism... which can be substituted for accuride type you are using.

So it's not just the sides. If you have two drawers side by side and count all the layers, it's 7-8 layers of metal vs 7-8 layers of wood. If you count front to back, it's 3-4 layers of wood/metal depending on the design.

7x.75" wood is 5.25" total

7-8 layers of metal is probably 1/2" total?

That's a great point. I guess I didn't realize that the carcass was also just vertical sheet. I can definitely see the benefit of the thinner metal. I could definitely do sheet metal. The other issue I would have is that 16 gauge galvanized is about twice the weight of the ply... it's all about compromises. What are your thoughts on this and the other points listed above?

 

[TrekboxX]

While I don't have a strong perspective on which side is better, I did want to point out that by the time folks are adding drawer systems, many have already added (or are contemplating adding) tire carriers to the rear, which tend to have the spare tire on the passenger side. At least for those folks, the visibility point might be reversed (i.e., the spare tire already blocks visibility on the passenger side, so the fridge on that side would not take away any more visibility.)

Not suggesting that this alone would shift the balance the other way, but just wanted to bring up in case you were not already considering it.

Good point. See, this is why I like this forum! After all- I'm trying to please you guys, not me. I have the system I want(until I rip it out so I can roll with an "official" one). After mulling it over tonight, I don't think it would be a big deal to offer it both ways, as long as the customer is ok with the pros and cons.

 

[hoser]

What are your thoughts on this and the other points listed above?

I think for me the biggest benefit of using wood would be the weight advantage. I'm guessing 3/4" is a slight overkill and so if using slightly thinner would, the advantage would be even greater.

As far as noise, I'm not really hearing any noises from within my metal drawers as they are lined with carpet. The top surface is carpeted wood which I much prefer over metal.

I can see what you mean about being able to modify and drill wood easier for the end user but actually, most those parts that one would drill into (side wings and top surface) on the outback drawer are also wood.

What I do like about your drawers is the craftsmanship of being hand built in the US (local, even). The full extension slides are a nice feature especially for fridge access. Though, I don't quite understand the need for the slides to lock in the closed position. It seems like it makes opening the drawer a two handed operation?

 

[TrekboxX]

I think for me the biggest benefit of using wood would be the weight advantage. I'm guessing 3/4" is a slight overkill and so if using slightly thinner would, the advantage would be even greater.

As far as noise, I'm not really hearing any noises from within my metal drawers as they are lined with carpet. The top surface is carpeted wood which I much prefer over metal.

I can see what you mean about being able to modify and drill wood easier for the end user but actually, most those parts that one would drill into (side wings and top surface) on the outback drawer are also wood.

What I do like about your drawers is the craftsmanship of being hand built in the US (local, even). The full extension slides are a nice feature especially for fridge access. Though, I don't quite understand the need for the slides to lock in the closed position. It seems like it makes opening the drawer a two handed operation?

Yes, 3/4 may be a slight overkill. 1/2 is definitely not enough (I tried) and 5/8 has a few drawbacks. It doesn't resist warp nearly as well as 3/4, and it also doesn't have enough thickness imo to adequately hold standard fasteners. It is also a bit thin when counterboring fasteners for a clean, stackable design.

As far as the areas where folks would want to modify- I can easily see tie downs on the top, an array of electrical accessories mounted to the carcass under the wings, a pull pal or pistol safe mounted to the front of the carcass, and even a gun rack or fire extinguisher bolted to the drawer side. I'm hoping these will be seen as a very high quality and robust drawer system that comes complete, but is infinitely customizeable.

Yes, opening the drawer is a two handed operation. I've found this to be good and bad. While slightly less convenient than the arb system, the handle seems more robust (time will tell) and it forces you to focus on opening the drawer. I've seen the benefit of this first hand when the wife opens the 200lb drawer on a slope. I can easily see how the weight of the drawer could suprise someone. It doesn't allow you to just pull a handle and see what happens. With the full extension slides (super handy), it would definitely hit you square in the hips and knock you over. But, you'd learn! The inconvenience is that you have to set whatever is in your hands down on the gate first.

Having said all of this, if I found a good robust slam latch I'd definitely test it out. I've tried the paddle latches and so far, they don't seem up to the task. I can easily use the same slides that only lock out, and combined with a slam latch you'd have a single hand-opening drawer. I just haven't found the right one.

Please don't think I'm only defending these, I'm just conveying my thought process. I very much appreciate your input- keep it coming!

 

[jonharis]

In your list of benifets of wood over metal you mentioned that wood was quieter than metal. This is not the impression I have seen with any drawer system or any other product, (e.g. My camper which has zero wood in its construction.) Almost every drawer system I have seen with wood as a primary component in the drawers themselves has had issues with squeaking and fitment issues due to expanding and contracting wood. I've never seen any of the issues you mentioned with a metal drawer system. No noise, no cracking, no stress fractures, strength issues etc. Now perhaps you have solved all of the problems associated with a wood drawer in which I really applaud your craftsmanship, but I can't help but think a quality system will use both wood and metal in key areas for the best compromise on weight, strength and noise.

After two years of hard use my drawers are still absolutely silent. They are more than strong enough for anything I could possibly load in them and they are in like new condition.

Again, I'm not bashing anything you are doing, in fact I think some of your ideas are far and away better than those implemented by others. I just wonder how the system will hold up under hard use in tough weather conditions with dust, water and various gunk ingress over time.

 

[RobRed]

I've had both wood and now metal. Both were/are silent.

I would suspect construction methodology to be a big factor. In my wood based system I used lots of dado, glue and very high quality hardware. The Baltic birch is extremely stable material, lesser woods would suffer to a larger degree from heat and moisture.

FYI I have inspected 1407s current build and observed the highest level of care and craftsmanship.

 

[TrekboxX]

In your list of benifets of wood over metal you mentioned that wood was quieter than metal. This is not the impression I have seen with any drawer system or any other product, (e.g. My camper which has zero wood in its construction.) Almost every drawer system I have seen with wood as a primary component in the drawers themselves has had issues with squeaking and fitment issues due to expanding and contracting wood. I've never seen any of the issues you mentioned with a metal drawer system. No noise, no cracking, no stress fractures, strength issues etc. Now perhaps you have solved all of the problems associated with a wood drawer in which I really applaud your craftsmanship, but I can't help but think a quality system will use both wood and metal in key areas for the best compromise on weight, strength and noise.

After two years of hard use my drawers are still absolutely silent. They are more than strong enough for anything I could possibly load in them and they are in like new condition.

Again, I'm not bashing anything you are doing, in fact I think some of your ideas are far and away better than those implemented by others. I just wonder how the system will hold up under hard use in tough weather conditions with dust, water and various gunk ingress over time.

When I am speaking of the noise level- I'm talking more about the noise of the cargo against the material, not the drawers themselves making noise. To me, if you are spending $1500 and up for a couple of drawers- they better be silent! No, I just mean that the wood is inherently quieter in terms of things banging/rattling against it. In fact, the only noise I get from my system is when carelessly packed items rattle against the metal cage. Yes, if you cover either with a sound deadener, they should both be pretty good. And for me personally, a bed liner product or similar is more desirable than carpet.

I don't know, of course, what wooden drawer systems you have seen, but I would imagine that most of them have been DIY systems, since there aren't many wood systems on the market. These systems may or may not have been built by an experienced woodworker. I have not invented any new methods for building wood drawers, but actually just use tried and true proper techniques. In my personal system, I used "solid" core high-layer count hardwood ply with the proper moisture content, dadoed, piloted, screwed and glued. The dadoes were sized properly- too tight and the glue joint becomes starved, too loose and the glue joint will be weak. Done properly the joint is stronger than the material itself. The wood is completely sealed on all sides. This makes expansion and contraction of the wood almost non-existent. I would happily pit it's durability against any drawer system out there. I think it would fair well. No nails are used- nails squeak and are for building houses, not drawer systems or any other quality furniture-type woodwork, imo. If techniques are used properly, and the natural tendencies of wood are taken into account, not fought or overlooked, wood is an exceptional material and has few equals when it comes to strength/weight, rigidity, and resistance to fatigue. Another example of this is the rocking chairs that I make. They are made of approximately 130 individual pieces of wood, none of them square. All joinery is finished by hand and not a single piece of metal is used in the chair. The back braces are thin, flexible, and are free to float. they are incredibly strong. They may take me 9 months to make (spare time) and cost $12,000 if you were to buy one, but they don't squeak- ever. I'll throw up a pic or two below- these are not mine, but very similar. Mine are on an external hard drive since I've changed computers recently. Ok, enough tangent!

I'm very happy to hear that your drawer system has been good for you. I have no problems with what's out there, I just know that for me the drawers that were available when I was looking weren't what I wanted. They were all limiting for me in some way. Having the background that I do I knew I could do better-for me. You are right, the perfect drawer system would use all materials where they are best used- wood, metal, donkey fur, whatever. I agree, but I think with my background I see the wood to have more capability than others may that have less experience with it or with correctly-made wood products. People just naturally think "it's made of STEEL!", so it must be strong. Your camper (absolutely awesome, btw) is a great example of a craftsman using metal who truly understands the material. If the metal is used in a way that minimizes any fatigue/work hardening by overbuilding, structural shapes, gusseting, etc., it will stand the test of time. But the cost of this is money and often weight. I would never build a trailer frame, for example, out of wood. It's not the right material. But I wouldn't build a racing kayak out of metal, either! Here's another example you may find humorous. I used to fly a 1952 Hiller (helicopter). It had wooden rotor blades. No, really, it did. They took some maintenance to ensure they had not warped, etc., but they were exceptionally strong, light, and fatigue resistant. If you've ever seen slow-mo video of a rotor blade you know the extreme flexing they are subject to. Fast forward. I'm flying a state of the art BH407. Each rotor blade is made of high-tech composite honeycomb core with a thin sheet (metal) skin. And they cost $70k. Each. And there are 4 of them. And guess what cracks? Yep, the sheet metal. And when it does- into the garbage can. The Hiller's blades you just give a little sand and finish and off you go!

Ok, enough rant. One more point- in my production system I don't have the luxury of using some of the construction methods mentioned above due to cost (man-hours), turn around time, and shipping logistics. So, I had to use other methods to ensure the reliability of the system. The wood will be CNC cut for accuracy/repeatability, covered on all sides of every piece with Line-X to reduce sound and moisture-related issues to nil, and fastened with connector bolts and cross dowels- a tried and true method which is incredibly strong. A nice by-product of this type of construction as opposed to a glued/permanent method is that, like your OS drawer system, each part is removable to access or modify the system, and repairable.

After all of this- I'm not at all opposed to the metal used in the drawers. I just want to have the best compromise that will do the job, and do it well! Maybe if I knew someone who could mold carbon fiber...

I've had both wood and now metal. Both were/are silent.

I would suspect construction methodology to be a big factor. In my wood based system I used lots of dado, glue and very high quality hardware. The Baltic birch is extremely stable material, lesser woods would suffer to a larger degree from heat and moisture.

FYI I have inspected 1407s current build and observed the highest level of care and craftsmanship.

Thanks, Rob. It was good to see you, and hear your cool exhaust!

 

[TrekboxX]

Another thought to consider- the truck's body will twist and move, especially during off road driving. Having the drawers "wedged" into the cargo area will promote the system twisting as well. It is my belief that mounting it on padding-carpet, rubber, whatever- to only the floor and not allowing any contact anywhere else will help to minimize this effect whether the drawers are metal or wood.

 

[Hugh Heifer]

I bet if you made plans and/or templates and a list of parts folks would buy that from you. I have been studying your build and your CADs in an attempt at moding your work for my needs. Great work BTW.

 

[jonharis]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I hope to see these in person some day. If I was just beging my build I would be watching these extremely closely.

A note on carpet: i had mine out for just a few days and found the sound to be unacceptably loud. The road and driveline noise were greatly increased. Leaving the OEM carpet installed regardless of drawer system is a great recommendation.

 

[RobRed]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I hope to see these in person some day. If I was just beging my build I would be watching these extremely closely.

A note on carpet: i had mine out for just a few days and found the sound to be unacceptably loud. The road and driveline noise were greatly increased. Leaving the OEM carpet installed regardless of drawer system is a great recommendation.

Ditto. Carpet plus FatMat is even better.

 

[TrekboxX]

I bet if you made plans and/or templates and a list of parts folks would buy that from you. I have been studying your build and your CADs in an attempt at moding your work for my needs. Great work BTW.

Thanks. I am contemplating eventually having an option for plans and perhaps a hardware kit. I'm not sure. I don't know how popular it would be, once folks see the price for just a kit. The hardware for a system like this can get quite pricey. It would probably make more sense to buy a complete system and spend time customizing it.

I was hoping to begin manufacturing the first production model next week, but I've gotten sidetracked with this Rim Fire that's burning near Yosemite. We have a family cabin up there that is threatened, so I've had to run up there during the night to get our belongings. Time will tell. but it's already scorched all my favorite fishing spots!

Anyways, I'm trying to finish up the cad work. Hopefully we'll have something tangible soon!

 

[Hugh Heifer]

Good luck with the fire. Wish you the best.

Heifer-net

 

[FloridaFJ80]

Keep us updated.. I love this storage system. Cant wait for the 80 series system. Though I dont see what would change other than the side wings and front fitment. The rest would be exactly the same as you have it here sans the 100 series wings. You may be able to offer both, all you would need would be a nice template for the sides on the 80 series and the same for the 60 series.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[TrekboxX]

You're exactly right. I already have a couple guys willing to donate their 80 for fitment. Had a meeting with my CNC guy yesterday. We should be starting the first production system within a week or so. I've also had a number of 60 owners interested, so ot looks like I'll be designing one for them as well. Things are a couple of weeks behind (my) schedule due to me having to fly home to MI due to a death in the family, but hopefully things will start moving along now...

 

[RobRed]

Mounting points will be different. The 100 has nice retained nuts in the floor to hold drawers in place(from 3rd row). It's been too many years I don't recall the floor in my 80 having the same. The third row seats were bracketed to the wheel wells.