RTH rolled 80 in Menden VT

[ppc]

I know I'll get some argument here but my preference is to lock the center diff in conditions like that. I find that way the rear does not out drive the front. Sounds like you were in a bit of a hurry and should have been running a little slower. Speed limits are set based upon dry conditions. The Po Po could have cited you for speeding and reckless driving if he wanted to.
I'm glad everyone is safe and sound. When your wife delivers and recovers I think she needs to do a Janay Rice on you!!

 

[AaronM33]

I know I'll get some argument here but my preference is to lock the center diff in conditions like that. I find that way the rear does not out drive the front. Sounds like you were in a bit of a hurry and should have been running a little slower. Speed limits are set based upon dry conditions. The Po Po could have cited you for speeding and reckless driving if he wanted to.
I'm glad everyone is safe and sound. When your wife delivers and recovers I think she needs to do a Janay Rice on you!!

Yeah man, I keep replaying it in my head and wishing I'd just hit the brakes and chugged along as slow as that bus wanted to go. We really weren't in a hurry and were actually in time to meet up at noon. The VT State Police Sgt said the same about the speed limit and ticket, and of course I already knew that. It was a really stupid mistake on my part.

 

[Heckraiser]

Been there, done that. Glad you (and especially the family) are OK! These toyotas hold up pretty good when it counts

 

[SmokingRocks]

Everyone says put the new tires on the rear... And I understand the argument but I disagree with it, personally I would always put new tires on the front (if Im only buying two, which I don't think I have done that since I was pinching pennies in college).

Let me preface this by saying that I am comfortable with this because I have been extensively and professionally trained in vehicle control and recovery (a need to know when handling someone else's 200k track car). If you are thinking about putting two tires on your teenagers FZJ-80 (or any vehicle for that matter) I would strongly suggest you do all four. To handle more traction in the front than rear takes a patient and knowledgeable driver.

Now let me explain further, I get why they say to put new tires on the rear because for the average joe or jane oversteer can be a scary thing and if the driver is unfamiliar with the situation usually results in driver lock up. Uncorrected - or overcorrected - oversteer can turn into pretty bad wrecks. So new on the rear makes sense for most drivers.

But before I get flamed let me tell you why I prefer new tires on the front. If my vehicle knocks sideways I want to have the best bite possible at the front end so that I can counter the slide. In the event you lose traction at the rear having 8/32nd more tread wouldn't have done much more for you anyway, something else is wrong (overdriving conditions is a typical cause).

Furthermore most of your braking happens at the front tires and understeer is just as dangerous as oversteer. So if you cant stop because you are sliding around on the front you will rear end someone. Or think about making a corner on a undivided highway, hitting a patch of slush and understeering into head on traffic, not a good scenario to be in.

IMO by putting new tires on the rear and not the front you open yourself up for many more dangerous situations that happen more frequently while maybe lessening your chance of an oversteer condition that shouldn't happen if you aren't overdriving the conditions anyway.

 

[Alleycats]

Glad everyone is ok, when driving on slush and ice you really need to be on your game, especially with kids in the car.

 

[BILT4ME]

Everyone says put the new tires on the rear... And I understand the argument but I disagree with it, personally I would always put new tires on the front (if Im only buying two, which I don't think I have done that since I was pinching pennies in college).

Let me preface this by saying that I am comfortable with this because I have been extensively and professionally trained in vehicle control and recovery (a need to know when handling someone else's 200k track car). If you are thinking about putting two tires on your teenagers FZJ-80 (or any vehicle for that matter) I would strongly suggest you do all four. To handle more traction in the front than rear takes a patient and knowledgeable driver.

Now let me explain further, I get why they say to put new tires on the rear because for the average joe or jane oversteer can be a scary thing and if the driver is unfamiliar with the situation usually results in driver lock up. Uncorrected - or overcorrected - oversteer can turn into pretty bad wrecks. So new on the rear makes sense for most drivers.

But before I get flamed let me tell you why I prefer new tires on the front. If my vehicle knocks sideways I want to have the best bite possible at the front end so that I can counter the slide. In the event you lose traction at the rear having 8/32nd more tread wouldn't have done much more for you anyway, something else is wrong (overdriving conditions is a typical cause).

Furthermore most of your braking happens at the front tires and understeer is just as dangerous as oversteer. So if you cant stop because you are sliding around on the front you will rear end someone. Or think about making a corner on a undivided highway, hitting a patch of slush and understeering into head on traffic, not a good scenario to be in.

IMO by putting new tires on the rear and not the front you open yourself up for many more dangerous situations that happen more frequently while maybe lessening your chance of an oversteer condition that shouldn't happen if you aren't overdriving the conditions anyway.

Take a look at what the tire people say, then do your own search (putting new tires on the rear) and find ANYONE that states they should be placed on the front and post it here.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52

The problem is that the rear loses traction and will kick out the rear causing the car to slide. I consider myself to be well above the average driver. I have had this happen in deep snow in a front wheel drive car. I had the better tires on the front, thinking the same rationality as you.... then as I changed lanes, doing about 35 mph, changing lanes gradually, the rear suddenly kicked out and wanted to pass the front. Now, I saved it because I know enough to ACCELERATE with a FWD car to pull it out of this situation, but if my wife had been driving, we would have spun. If I would have been driving a RWD, I would have decelerated, steered into the slide, and if that didn't save it, accelerate hard to keep the rear sliding and drift. In a AWD once it starts sliding, you have to go with it and steer into the slide. You MAY be able to pull it out of it with hard acceleration, but that won't happen with an 80 unless it has had an LS6 installed. 4WD vehicels are similar to AWD, but the front and rear axles travel the same speed and it tends to go in whatever direction it is pointed when it finally gets traction. You can steer into it to help control.

It took me a while to agree with it, but I've seen multiple non-sponsored track driving tests and they all come out the same. Good tires on the rear on ALL vehicles regardless of front, rear, or all wheel drive.

 

[retrofive]

Some conservation here on 'mud on the matter.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/new-tires-dot-decrees-where-they-go-wtf.819525/#post-9384229

 

[SmokingRocks]

I've read the 'expert reports' (mainly derived from litigation) and I've done it both ways. In the end I still would do it my way for me. Didn't suggest you do that for someone who doesn't understand car control. Our countries ''drivers education'' is woefully inadequate in teaching any kind of skid control which is too bad because a lot of accidents could be avoided.

If you are in a situation that traction is compromised and you dangerously kick out the tail because of a lane change you are overdriving the conditions regardless of how you cut it. The maneuver should have never been attempted at that speed in those conditions. That's how accidents happen, regardless of tread life.

Whatever floats your fancy though really. Point is you should rotate your tires regularly so that when it comes time for new tires you aren't looking at 2 good ones and 2 toast ones, your looking at 4 old tires that need to be replaced with 4 new tires.

 

[BILT4ME]

I agree SmokingRocks!

For those that understand how this stuff works, it's typically a non-issue because we understand the limits and restrictions of what and how we do it, typically because we have already pushed something past that limit and gained experience or learned from others.

Yes, in this case it was overdriving the conditions. Second, it's a 4WD, all tires should be the same...yes, I'll probably get flamed for that whole tread and tire size differential BS,...... but on 4WD, replace in sets of 4 whenever possible.

If it always played out that way, then no one would be able to drift race or run dirt tracks because they would lose it and spin.

I don't have to worry about the worn tires on the rear because I replace in sets of 4 (or usually 5) and rotate my tires every 10K and I torque the lug nuts in a star pattern to the FSM required torque using a torque wrench......

 

[landtank]

I'm on my phone and haven't read all the details but if this is totaled call cruiserparts and provide them pictures. They will come and get it with a check in hand and as far as I'm concernered very reasonable.

Choke this truck up to saving your lives and appreciate that for what is in and take a flight home and start looking for another one.

That's what I did when my son totaled his

 

[VuickB6]

I've read the 'expert reports' (mainly derived from litigation) and I've done it both ways. In the end I still would do it my way for me. Didn't suggest you do that for someone who doesn't understand car control. Our countries ''drivers education'' is woefully inadequate in teaching any kind of skid control which is too bad because a lot of accidents could be avoided.

If you are in a situation that traction is compromised and you dangerously kick out the tail because of a lane change you are overdriving the conditions regardless of how you cut it. The maneuver should have never been attempted at that speed in those conditions. That's how accidents happen, regardless of tread life.

Whatever floats your fancy though really. Point is you should rotate your tires regularly so that when it comes time for new tires you aren't looking at 2 good ones and 2 toast ones, your looking at 4 old tires that need to be replaced with 4 new tires.

I don't care what causes you to be in an undesirable situation the fact is that the good rear tires will provide stability and steering and braking on the front end won't matter if the rear can't do its job. Rain, snow, or shine it's better to have them on the rear. This isn't all stemming from litigation.

 

[SmokingRocks]

I don't care what causes you to be in an undesirable situation the fact is that the good rear tires will provide stability and steering and braking on the front end won't matter if the rear can't do its job. Rain, snow, or shine it's better to have them on the rear. This isn't all stemming from litigation.

lets just say I do not agree with you and here is why.

Going the right speed for the conditions, knowing how to handle a vehicle (this ins't just thinking that you know) and having better tires on the front will always keep you out of trouble. Sorry if you don't think so but that is just the case, probably why all mechanics use to recommend this as most mechanics know how to handle a vehicle.

Good tires on the rear will make it less likely to fishtail which aids in what people think is 'vehicle stability'. That is it. It will not make you slow down faster, it will not help you steer better than if you were to have the new ones on the front. Its better for an inexperienced driver to have new tires on the rear but for a trained driver (and many of us exist) it is far more detrimental. Remember vehicle stability is not just a result of the rear tires grip alone, it is a result of front and rear tires having grip. If the fronts dont have bite, cant turn, cant stop (front on avg do 80% braking) then it doesn't matter if the rear are tracking straight and true the vehicle is out of control and 'vehicle stability' is out the window. I think this is why most people (those who don't understand how to handle a car in loss of traction situations) think that oversteer is more dangerous than understeer. Both situations are dangerous.

What I have been saying is that for a trained driver oversteer is safer than understeer even though it seems counter intuitive from a untrained perspective.


Finally Yes! All of it stems from litigation after a driver lost control because after they were instructed to have the new tires put on the front they overdrove the conditions, were inexperienced and undertrained in driving and crashed. The test prove what I said above, however they blanket their findings by saying it is best for all drivers to put them on the rear to keep themselves out of future legal trouble.

 

[AaronM33]

Been there, done that. Glad you (and especially the family) are OK! These toyotas hold up pretty good when it counts

Dang man, that looks nasty. How many times did that tumble? Was it just you in the truck? That's such a shame, I love those 3rd gen 4Runners too. Actually that's what I was shopping for before I stumbled across my 80. I actually thought a little bit about trying to graft a 3rd gen face onto my truck now that it's torn to pieces anyway.

As far as the front/ rear new tires conversation goes, I don't know what to think. Honestly, I usually do* put tires on 5 at a time and rotate them religiously so it's a moot point for me. Not this time because I'm trying to pay my way through undergrad now as a married 30 year old with a baby on the way. Sometimes you know better but the funds just aren't there. Oh well, learn a lesson and move on gratefully.

I guess this could change any day depending on closer inspection but I do plan on fixing this truck. Met Crusha last night at his shop and shook hands on a parts deal. Very cool. Now it's time to research DIY windshield replacement and figure out how to push out these dents. More pics to come later this week. It's finals time...

 

[CoffeeGeek]

I know all too well the worn tires in the rear situation. Like many snow belters on a budget I frequently put new tires on the front of a car in the hopes of being able to go in the mess. When my then wife needed tires on the lexus es300 we put tires on the front as the rears still had plenty tread left due to her lead foot. What I did not expect was the softer than I had been used to tires (first time with a car that had "performance tires" wore out more than expected in the rear of the car. Some time later she ran into a situation where the road was greasy (not wet?) and the rear of the vehicle slid out faster than she could react. If I was driving, I do not know if I could have felt the situation happening and done so,etching differnent nth am her to avoid the inevitable crash. Car did not roll but needed a new roof . What I do believe is that had I replaced all four that the accident may not have happened.

My future cars either got all four tires or only rears on rear wheel drive BMW with staggered wheel size.

I am glad you all made it out safely.

 

[AaronM33]

I know all too well the worn tires in the rear situation. Like many snow belters on a budget I frequently put new tires on the front of a car in the hopes of being able to go in the mess.

I am glad you all made it out safely.

Yeah i'm thinking I'll never do just 2 again. The new tires write checks the old can't cash. I felt pretty confident all weekend because it was stopping and turning great. I actually tried to skid around an unplowed parking lot earlier that day and it had great traction. Oh well, time to move on. Also, thanks for the good vibes.

 

[AaronM33]

Pics of the dent in the roof. It looks close but I don't think it will effect (affect?) the windshield. Guess I'll pull the headliner down and try to pop this back up. I want to erase these little reminders as much as possible...

 

[AaronM33]

Pics of the rear quarter. How do I fix this guys (and gals)? Pop it out from inside? Weld something and pull with a slide hammer? Maybe I should pay a body shop to do these dents... I really don't want to look at this huge dent every day and remember what an idiot I've been.

 

[AaronM33]

Can you say Toyota Army Green Monstaliner? You can now!

I worked with Eric @magnetman to develop this shade of Monstaliner. I sent a painted steel sample to Eric and he was able to match perfectly to the Army/Dark green of the Toyota FJ Cruiser. I didn't do a perfect job applying it, but that was mostly user error. I applied during the night in a dimly lit garage, while it was raining outside...the humidity gave me about 30 mins of pot-life, so I had to work quick. Overall, I am very happy with the end result.

View attachment 956124 View attachment 956125 View attachment 956128 View attachment 956129 View attachment 956130

This might be my next color choice, since I pretty much have to stick to Monstaliner now...

 

[Heckraiser]

Dang man, that looks nasty. How many times did that tumble? Was it just you in the truck? That's such a shame, I love those 3rd gen 4Runners too. Actually that's what I was shopping for before I stumbled across my 80. I actually thought a little bit about trying to graft a 3rd gen face onto my truck now that it's torn to pieces anyway.

That was one roll at 45mph, landing back on her feet. However the roll was very sudden, it rolled towards the driver's side, however the driver's side (except for the front fender) and most of the roof didn't even touch the ground. It flipped completely in the air until the passenger side roof struck. (I would love to see a video, to be honest got sideways in a patch of hidden ice (wind-blown snow) and popped back out onto dry pavement going 45mph sideways. Me and two good buddies in the vehicle. Thankfully my 6'4" friend was in the back seat and not riding shotgun.

 

[Dirty Koala]

This might be my next color choice, since I pretty much have to stick to Monstaliner now...

Glad you like. The Army green ans black combo could look pretty good.