Having an automatic locker up front would be a good way to save some money, if your driving style allows it without blowing up birfields all the time.
Ram assist steering and a locked diff (2 Viewers)
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I've had the Corvette assist, and my issue with them was it felt it was driving grandma's car because it gave so much assist. What I'm considering, though, is simply using the controller to run an assist ram. The Corvette ram isn't nearly robust enough to move jammed, large tires. Everything leaks eventually (even the Corvette system) - the benefit I see of using the controller is you're using a system that was designed to provide hydraulic assist to one's steer rather then tapping fluid from a spot it was not designed to be tapped from. On the Corvette, you can (and I did) take the assist off and the entire system continues to work (albeit with harder steering). In my case, that means that, while I wouldn't have super assist with the added ram, I would still have power assist even if the ram portion wasn't working. But I don't know, I'm still not convinced that how and where I wheel it would make any difference - and that's probably the greatest impediment to putting either system on board.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
Adding something else that can break if you don't need it is always a bad idea.
as I said before, I don't know. I'm reluctant to tap the steering box because I've not had good luck with those type of modifications (general, such as 750 hp in a 400ci SBC - 3x is fine, 4x, not so much).
breaking, there's nothing additional to break - the kid in me did take the C3 valve apart and it simply is a plunger that detects steering movement that is tied to the steering arm as the arm moves one direction or the other, a rod pulls on the valve or compresses the valve. When it detects this, it adds pump pressure to the indicated side.
Unlike the steering box conversion, it doesn't use movement to determine pressure. The saginaw box tap conversion takes pressure from either side of the steering box to determine where to add steering assist (to the right or the left). To me, that seems like a really good way to get vague or uncontrolled assistance. Simply because the pressure increases on one line does not, actually, mean there was a steering input. For example, if the pump starts to go bad you will get pressure fluctuations and it wouldn't take much of a fluctuation for the ram to think "oh, there's a steering input" and toss you off a cliff at speed.
The benefit of the C3 control valve is it allows driver input to control how much pressure goes to the assist and it works seamlessly - add to the benefits that you can determine how much assistance the system will give.
And finally, do you honestly believe that Saginaw would have developed an entire new system to control an assist ram? If all they had to do was take pressure off the box via a drilling operation and a $2.00 nipple, do you really think the engineers wouldn't have done it?
anyway, point is, I don't know, you might convince me - but I've talked to people like the guy from Alaska Off-road Adventure about that conversion and my opinion is based upon what he (and lots of others have said...) with that said, it wasn't unanimously one way or the other... but I tell people that if they see anything I build on a trailer, it better look broken or call 911 - I'm still on the side of running a control valve rather then drilling and tapping a hole.
breaking, there's nothing additional to break - the kid in me did take the C3 valve apart and it simply is a plunger that detects steering movement that is tied to the steering arm as the arm moves one direction or the other, a rod pulls on the valve or compresses the valve. When it detects this, it adds pump pressure to the indicated side.
Unlike the steering box conversion, it doesn't use movement to determine pressure. The saginaw box tap conversion takes pressure from either side of the steering box to determine where to add steering assist (to the right or the left). To me, that seems like a really good way to get vague or uncontrolled assistance. Simply because the pressure increases on one line does not, actually, mean there was a steering input. For example, if the pump starts to go bad you will get pressure fluctuations and it wouldn't take much of a fluctuation for the ram to think "oh, there's a steering input" and toss you off a cliff at speed.
The benefit of the C3 control valve is it allows driver input to control how much pressure goes to the assist and it works seamlessly - add to the benefits that you can determine how much assistance the system will give.
And finally, do you honestly believe that Saginaw would have developed an entire new system to control an assist ram? If all they had to do was take pressure off the box via a drilling operation and a $2.00 nipple, do you really think the engineers wouldn't have done it?
anyway, point is, I don't know, you might convince me - but I've talked to people like the guy from Alaska Off-road Adventure about that conversion and my opinion is based upon what he (and lots of others have said...) with that said, it wasn't unanimously one way or the other... but I tell people that if they see anything I build on a trailer, it better look broken or call 911 - I'm still on the side of running a control valve rather then drilling and tapping a hole.
Honestly, basing an opinion on the Alaska Off road Adventure people is a recipe for disaster...
Hydraulic ram assist steering is based on regulating pressures between the steering gear box and hydraulic ram. They work in balance with each other, not in-spite of each other. If you disconnect the steering ram and leave the box attached, when you try to turn the wheel the ram will either extend fully or retract fully before you can easily turn the wheel. If you disconnect the steering gear box and leave the ram attached, the box will have to go to full lock before the ram will actuate. Flow goes the easiest direction. You are just using the steering box as the orbital valve to run the ram. A very simple system that has been in use on machinery for a long time.
The only way for vague/uncontrolled steering or get "tossed off a cliff" is for the entire system to fail at once including your drag link and tie rod. In fact, having a ram on there would actually allow steering if your Drag link were to fail. So consider it a safety feature. Thinking that a pump going bad would create a pressure variation and could be able to cause such an issue shows a lack on understanding of hydraulic systems in general. A Drilled box HA system requires driver input to control how much pressure goes to the assist, and it works seamlessly as long as the ram is not oversized.
Some very well known and respected companies (Howe, PSC Motorsports) and a slew of smaller companies (West Texas Offroad, Trail Gear) providing hydro assist supplies and drilling power steering boxes to the off road industry. They would not risk their reputation or business if every third box tossed a dude and his kids off of Cliffhanger in Moab or Cadillac Hill on the 'Con. Additionally, not one of those companies have sold a kit using a corvette or ford control device for a HA ram. That speaks volumes to me.
Personally, I have no idea if your idea would work or not. And, I'm not going to spend a couple hundred bucks on something that might or might not work. Drilling and tapping works beautifully, and since I already have the drill and taps, it's free (minus hoses and a ram).
If you are that curious, give it a try and let us know. Please, I love new ideas, but get frustrated when people keep pressing an untried idea that is a bit contrary to common knowledge. It reminds me too much of Backwoodsgoop..
Hydraulic ram assist steering is based on regulating pressures between the steering gear box and hydraulic ram. They work in balance with each other, not in-spite of each other. If you disconnect the steering ram and leave the box attached, when you try to turn the wheel the ram will either extend fully or retract fully before you can easily turn the wheel. If you disconnect the steering gear box and leave the ram attached, the box will have to go to full lock before the ram will actuate. Flow goes the easiest direction. You are just using the steering box as the orbital valve to run the ram. A very simple system that has been in use on machinery for a long time.
The only way for vague/uncontrolled steering or get "tossed off a cliff" is for the entire system to fail at once including your drag link and tie rod. In fact, having a ram on there would actually allow steering if your Drag link were to fail. So consider it a safety feature. Thinking that a pump going bad would create a pressure variation and could be able to cause such an issue shows a lack on understanding of hydraulic systems in general. A Drilled box HA system requires driver input to control how much pressure goes to the assist, and it works seamlessly as long as the ram is not oversized.
Some very well known and respected companies (Howe, PSC Motorsports) and a slew of smaller companies (West Texas Offroad, Trail Gear) providing hydro assist supplies and drilling power steering boxes to the off road industry. They would not risk their reputation or business if every third box tossed a dude and his kids off of Cliffhanger in Moab or Cadillac Hill on the 'Con. Additionally, not one of those companies have sold a kit using a corvette or ford control device for a HA ram. That speaks volumes to me.
Personally, I have no idea if your idea would work or not. And, I'm not going to spend a couple hundred bucks on something that might or might not work. Drilling and tapping works beautifully, and since I already have the drill and taps, it's free (minus hoses and a ram).
If you are that curious, give it a try and let us know. Please, I love new ideas, but get frustrated when people keep pressing an untried idea that is a bit contrary to common knowledge. It reminds me too much of Backwoodsgoop..
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
My wife and I watched that show once. Her comment is they wouldn't last a day following behind our 100 series. We do harder stuff just running up in the hills for a picnic.
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The guy I talked to from (I agree) train wreck of a show is very knowledgeable about both axles and steering - why you judge him by a character he played on a TV show seems a bit, well, reaching. His Jeep and the brother and sister 4runner were anything but crap boxes and both built by people who really do know what they're doing... and I base that opinion from watching the entertaining show, and from meeting and talking with him - all while spending a good amount of time crawling over his Jeep.
Perhaps you should check out what he does with high pinion 44s, you might change your opinion. Of course, I don't know everything so it isn't news to say I learned a bunch from him. His builds HP 44s with dana 50 pinions that are pretty neat - dana 60 strength (he claims more than 60), with dana 44 clearance... it's well thought out stuff. He's also a really nice guy in person - which I suspect you are as well, but lord knows that if I judged you from how you seem on this end of the computer... well, I'm sure you just play this way on the internet.
And finally, I didn't realize I was trying to talk you into doing anything - I'm asking you questions so I can make an informed decision for what I'm doing on my vehicle. I know this is stating what you've already said a thousand times - but don't ever do anything I do, as we know, it's a complete shipwreck.
Perhaps you should check out what he does with high pinion 44s, you might change your opinion. Of course, I don't know everything so it isn't news to say I learned a bunch from him. His builds HP 44s with dana 50 pinions that are pretty neat - dana 60 strength (he claims more than 60), with dana 44 clearance... it's well thought out stuff. He's also a really nice guy in person - which I suspect you are as well, but lord knows that if I judged you from how you seem on this end of the computer... well, I'm sure you just play this way on the internet.
And finally, I didn't realize I was trying to talk you into doing anything - I'm asking you questions so I can make an informed decision for what I'm doing on my vehicle. I know this is stating what you've already said a thousand times - but don't ever do anything I do, as we know, it's a complete shipwreck.
It's more than the character on the TV show. The entire thing is a lie... Those rigs were s*** boxes. A bunch of cruisers on this form have done better and more extreme trails in the actual wild areas of Alaska (instead of a off road park). It would be like taking marital advice from Roxanne, She might be the perfect domestic goddess, but there is no way I'd respect her..
A d44 can never be as strong as a D60. Almost as strong as a stock D60 I'd buy, almost... But not even a mildly built 60. The mass is not there. Even comparing the U joints alone shows a huge difference in strength. A D44 can be strong, but has serious limitations due to the design.
Someone can be the nicest person in the world, but if they are happily giving bad advice or portraying a REALLY bad image to the masses, I'll call a spade a spade. Judge me as you see fit, it makes no matter to me. In this case you are suggesting a untried and untested hydro assist system (in the rocks at least) and hinting that a system that you personally have no experience with (but many have) is unsafe. That raises a red flag in my book.
You aren't talking me into doing anything. I was saying that if you want to prove or work with your ideas, then it's better to actually do it instead of talking about it. It's not a proven (or even tried) off road solution. But, as I said, I love new ideas, and if it turns out to be the next best thing to sliced bread I'll be holding up a "GOOD ON YA MATE" banner. It's always better to prove the assholes on a forum wrong, right???
I'm not trying to single you out or say you don't know anything. Honestly, I had never known that the Corvettes had a hydro assist system on them. I'm not a car guy. It's an interesting option, but I'm not going to poo poo a tried and true system that works well without some sort of proof..
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For those that have hydro-assist on rigs driven on the street at all, does it affect "return to center" after turning?
So to sum up your opinion:
- you have no idea whether the Corvette system could work because up and until I mentioned it, you never heard of it and your entire opinion is based on google.
- you only know about the drilled system because of what others have done and do not believe there are any weaknesses in it - even though, you have no idea even if there are alternatives.
- you judge people without ever talking to them, or seeing their work - in short, your entire opinion is media driven
- you're calling me out because I asked about the system and its benefits and weaknesses - thanks for the help
let's call that spade a spade, you're pretty judgmental and you base those judgments off a faulty premises (or no premise at all). Are you headed to Road Warriors this weekend? If you do, you need to know that it's not real - it's all makeup - it was done solely to entertain people. Of course, I know that's a hard concept for someone who lives in Las Vegas.
**CHAT ALERT** This thread should be closed because this thread is now buick trying to prove himself, not about steering.
What a s*** show. Maybe buick is backwoodsgoop with a new username. They certainly act the same.
What a s*** show. Maybe buick is backwoodsgoop with a new username. They certainly act the same.
Not one bit. Return to center is based on your front axle alignment. All the ram does is give extra power when necessary and acts like the world's greatest steering damper..
Redgrrr
I have a problem with 40s
all the bickering really takes away all the great work both of you perform.
I subscribe to both of your threads and while I appreciate the difference in opinion it really detracts from the information gained that I otherwise would never have access to.
An honest thank you for documenting your work on mud.
I subscribe to both of your threads and while I appreciate the difference in opinion it really detracts from the information gained that I otherwise would never have access to.
An honest thank you for documenting your work on mud.
Here's a video of how to port a Toyota box for ram assist.
As far as building the right setup, just buy a ram that has the same throw as your tie rod and build the rest yourself if you feel like it. Rams are cheap. http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motor...cylinder-assist-gears-kits-components?cat=465
As far as building the right setup, just buy a ram that has the same throw as your tie rod and build the rest yourself if you feel like it. Rams are cheap. http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motor...cylinder-assist-gears-kits-components?cat=465
**CHAT ALERT** This thread should be closed because this thread is now buick trying to prove himself, not about steering.
What a **** show. Maybe buick is backwoodsgoop with a new username. They certainly act the same.
buickdood = Alfred w. ?
Too bad a good thread is now polluted...
47coeman
Love those 45's
A great vid on porting TNX...
To get back to earlier questions, @rusty_tlc , If the strength of your knuckle is still a big concern, instead of the Six shooter knuckles you can also do a 5 stud mod on your stock knuckle. All it takes is someone who can weld, some steel, and a grinder. Bobby Long used to sell a "kit" for the parts, but it was not exactly a huge deal to homebrew one.
Cheap and easy bolt method (not the strongest but it'll help).
And if you want to, you can go full hog and run it with a cone washer.
This setup is neat, and does not require new steering arms or knuckles. However, the problems are that you better have the knuckle centered properly, or it'll leak, and I have not seen anyone actually make shims for this setup. It easily could be done, and probably should be. But it gets overlooked most likely.
Cheap and easy bolt method (not the strongest but it'll help).
And if you want to, you can go full hog and run it with a cone washer.
This setup is neat, and does not require new steering arms or knuckles. However, the problems are that you better have the knuckle centered properly, or it'll leak, and I have not seen anyone actually make shims for this setup. It easily could be done, and probably should be. But it gets overlooked most likely.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
Shims wouldn't be a big deal, I fab then for equipment at work often enough.
For determining the proper ram length, the easiest way is to put your front end on jack stands. Steer to full lock, Take a straight edge and lay it on the side of a leaf spring so that it goes straight up and touches the tie rod. Make a mark on the tie rod. Cycle the steering to the other side (full lock) and make another mark on the tie rod. The distance between the marks is the throw necessary for the hydraulic ram.
It's "better" to have a ram that's slightly too short and limits your steering than to have one that is too long and will try to rip the knuckles off and crush your steering stops (the stock steering stops are no match for ram assist steering). However, putting a spacer inside the ram is also not complex. So fine tuning the throw of the ram to precisely matching the travel distance of your tie rod is not hard.
I can post pics later today of how to measure if you guys want.
It's "better" to have a ram that's slightly too short and limits your steering than to have one that is too long and will try to rip the knuckles off and crush your steering stops (the stock steering stops are no match for ram assist steering). However, putting a spacer inside the ram is also not complex. So fine tuning the throw of the ram to precisely matching the travel distance of your tie rod is not hard.
I can post pics later today of how to measure if you guys want.
