Pulsing/droning vibration at highway speeds (4 Viewers)

[fussychicken]

Wanted to give an update:

So I took off my new rear driveshaft this weekend, thinking I was going to rotate the slip yoke 180 deg, just to see what would happen.

Much to my surprise, I noticed something new that I didn't catch when I was first installing it a few months ago. There are pink paint match marks on the shaft potentially(?) indicating how the slip yoke should be aligned. And even more to my surprise, they indicate that the shaft was balanced "out of phase" or aka "inverted phase." (You can see the 80 series guys talking about inverted phase here for their front shaft )

Just as a refresher, when I got the new shaft I took out the slip yoke to hand grease the splines. (I unfortunately didn't pay attention to the alignment before taking out the slip yoke to grease the splines.) When I put it back together I put it "in phase" with all three zerk fittings pointing in the same direction. I feel kind of like an idiot for not noticing these pink marks before. So I got kind of excited thinking this was my problem. So rotated the slip yoke 90 deg to line up the pink marks in the inverted phase and tried it.

Sadly it did not fix it. I have only taken a quick drive, but the vibes are still there. Seems like the vibration pitch is a touch higher and peaks around 70mph now. But still pretty bad.

So now I'm a bit confused. I tried to find some other pictures of brand new shafts to see their orientation.

• This one is just like the old one I had on before. In phase, with white paint marks instead of pink
• This one on partsouq also shows "in phase" alignment, but only shows one white paint mark. It also seems like all zerks are pointed the same direction for this alignment.

Just to be sure I wasn't going crazy, I drove around the truck this weekend without the rear shaft with the CDL on, and once again it was great. Super smooth with no vibes or noise. So it has to be something in the rear. I also tried to move around the transfer case output shaft when the driveshaft was off and it felt tight. No slop. I also checked the U-joint flexibility and they felt fine. I think no whacks needed.

Anyway, on to next steps. I've got new rear sus upper arms coming this week. Going to try that first. And then if that doesn't work, will probably try swapping the slip yoke again 90 more deg to make it back in phase again the other direction.


Curious if anyone here has any advice on alignment here? Did your new shaft come with paint marks indicating an in phase or out of phase alignment?



Pink marks very similar to the white ones on my old shaft. Just out of phase:

 

[krispykritter]

This is .... weird. I know, very clearly, that unless you have a driveshaft with ZERO angle between the front and rear yokes, you MUST have the u-joints installed in complementary angles because the u-joints are not CV joints, and therefore, change speed as they rotate. This manifests as a vibration, and the larger the angle the shaft is at, the more drastic the speed change/vibration. The complementary angles ensure that as one joint speeds up, the other joint slows down by an identical amount.

I've seen the u-joint thread from the 80 series in the past and I truly can't wrap my mind around why it would be different for their chassis. On the 100, the angle between the transfer-case and the front diff is minimal or non-existent, so it seems likely that screwing this up would have minimal effect on the front (I have not tested this!).

I know there's a big belief that "Mr. T" is always right, but this sure looks like a major screw up. I know this isn't really what you want to hear, but your path to quickly determining whether this shaft itself is the issue is probably to just buy another shaft, or find a local shop that can balance the driveshaft you have now.

If you're really lucky, maybe someone local will let you borrow their driveshaft to compare against your current one?

It seems very obvious from here that the issue is specific to your driveshaft, and there's enough questions about it's condition that you may want to just call it bad and try again. Having used OEM toyota shafts twice now, I ordered a Tom Wood driveshaft this time around and am pretty happy with it. I ordered the heavier wall version since I keep stuffing them into rocks.

I had a nearly brand-new OEM Toyota shaft rebalanced at a local shop a few years ago, and much to my surprise, they added a bunch of weights to it to get it to balance out. That one, however, wasn't causing super-bad vibrations; just enough to be annoying and getting it checked/balanced was an easy thing to do at the time.

Edit: I can try to dig my damaged shafts out of the shed and take a look for paint marks. I don't remember seeing marks on them but I also wasn't really paying close attention either.

 

[uHu]

 

[fussychicken]

This is .... weird.

...

I know there's a big belief that "Mr. T" is always right, but this sure looks like a major screw up. I know this isn't really what you want to hear, but your path to quickly determining whether this shaft itself is the issue is probably to just buy another shaft, or find a local shop that can balance the driveshaft you have now.

Weird indeed! Yeah, I think my next steps would be to bite the bullet and just take it to a driveline shop. But I've also read that new parts have a 12 month warranty? I ordered this shaft from Serra Decatur during one of their mega-sales. I know many dealers don't want to ship driveshafts due to damage, but they seemed to have packed this shaft well. I looked over it in detail this weekend and there wasn't any dings or areas where missing weights had been ripped off.

So yeah... weird....

I wonder if I can get them to send me a new one? Really curious if it will have the white paint match marks like all the other ones I've seen.

Edit: I can try to dig my damaged shafts out of the shed and take a look for paint marks. I don't remember seeing marks on them but I also wasn't really paying close attention either.

Many thanks for the offer, but I think probably not needed? From almost every example I've seen, it seems like it should be in phase like I had it in the first place. Similar to the point you mention above. So something doesn't seem to be adding up here.

 

[fussychicken]

Even though I now think I'm going crazy, I have some good news?

I'm still finding this hard to believe, but I swapped out my rear sus upper control arms and it appears to have made a major difference! I also put the shaft back in phase (even though the pink marks indicate otherwise), and with the new rear arms in, I'd say the overall vibration and noise was cut down about 60-70%. Which is blowing my mind.

Could just two new arms do so much? I've had really good results replacing other hard rubber parts in the front with new motor/trans/diff mounts, but I'm still surprised by this. I'm guessing it won't do as much, but I still went ahead and ordered the remaining lower arms and panhard rod arm from Impex. Will take a few weeks to get here, but I gotta try it now.


Drive Shaft Phasing:

I did a bunch more homework over the last few days, and to your point @krispykritter I feel like the shaft HAS to be in phase. I can't find any other example of inverted phase for any other vehicle except for that 80 series front drive shaft example. But I still don't know what the pink marks mean. For anyone reading this that buys a new shaft, please take pics and post them.

And even though the vibration has improved, the vibration "flavor" is still the same as it was before when I had it in phase. It is just much reduced. I still think even though this is an OEM shaft, there is a good chance it isn't balanced well.

So I looked into the two remaining driveline shops here in the bay area, but both have some pretty mixed reviews. I'm not sure I want them to mess with the shaft and make it even worse. There is a shop with good reviews about 1.5 hours away from me in Modesto, but I can't say like I feel like making the trek just yet.

I called Serra Toyota and tried to talk with Eric to see about a warranty replacement. His helper said that they didn't want to deal with it and Eric said I would need to take it to a local dealer and they should take it in on warranty. Of course all my local dealers were like no way, if you didn't buy it from us, get out of here. Kind of annoyed, but I've gotten so many smoking deals from them on parts I guess I can't complain too much.

The other option is to just buy another one from a local dealer, compare it to the pink mark one, and see what I get. I might still do that.


Tom Wood's

Thanks for bringing this up @krispykritter ! I had never heard of them before. I see that @MongooseGA had some issues with his, but overall this seems like a decent option. Currently showing only $410 for a 2 piece shaft. Given their mostly good reputation I will say I'm curious to try one of these.

Even better though were some good videos on their youtube page. This one in particular was the best explanation I've seen yet of the different types of vibes you get between balance issues vs angle misalignment issues. This has convinced me even more that I probably still have a shaft balance issue.


Next Steps

I've got a small road trip coming up in a week, so might just roll with this new setup and see how much it bothers me. Will probably try out the new remaining rear sus arms next after I get them from Impex. And then maybe bite the bullet and drive to Modesto? Or maybe just try another new OEM shaft from a local dealer? Hmm...



Even though the old ones didn't have any tearing, the rubber was of course hard as a rock:

New and shiny!

 

[LJE]

Good news! Can you do me a favor, and take some pictures showing the driveshaft angle at the transfer case and rear diff?

 

[krispykritter]

Hi @fussychicken Glad to hear the vibrations have greatly reduced! Progress always feels good! A couple of points to raise:

Is your vehicle AHC? If yes, is there a chance that the rear ride height has chanced due to replacing the arms and thus moving the ride height sensor? This will cause driveline alignment changes and could have the effect of bring it all closer to alignment and reducing angle misalignment vibrations. My rear upper arms were a LOT worse than yours when I replaced them, and I didn't have driveline vibes before or after replacement. I did have an annoying tendency to change direction between on and off throttle.

As for the Tom Wood shaft - I did NOT buy a double cardan, I would only suggest you do that if you are VERY comfortable adjusting the angles of your driveline. Our trucks are designed to have to just have two u-joints, and as such, our pinion is designed to be at a complementary angle to the t-case flange. For a double-cardan joint to work, you need to adjust the axle pinion to point directly at t-case flange (because the double-cardan joint is a CV joint, you want the single u-joint end to have zero angle, and all the angle to be in the double-cardan end). The only way to do that is to have adjustable arms, and I really don't know how well all the other stuff would take to being shifted to a 10 degree up angle. There's some discussion of that in the thread you linked.

The Tom Wood shaft that I bought was a standard one-piece driveshaft replacement. It feels good so far but I've only driven it probably 100 miles so far so I can't give it a big recommendation yet. This weekend I'll be driving something like 3-500 miles on and off road so I should have a better feel for it by Monday.

As for the balance vs angle video - my personal experience was that bad angle gave me no vibrations at low speed and came in more and more as speeds increased, becoming noticeable around 45 and intrusive around 65. Definitely could feel a large difference between on power and off power, but did not go entirely away when off power. I would imagine the balance issue would not change hardly at all between on and off power but haven't really experienced that so this is just a guess (I believe the video said this as well).

 

[fussychicken]

Good news! Can you do me a favor, and take some pictures showing the driveshaft angle at the transfer case and rear diff?

I tried my best here, but not sure if these are helpful or not. Hard to get the camera angle just right here. In general it seemed like both the diff and transfer case are pretty darn close to 0 deg. The rear diff might be angled up just a tad, and the transfer case might be angled DOWN just a tad. From what I've read you actually want them to both be angled up or down?

Just for reference this is with new motor and trans mounts installed about 5k miles ago. And of course the new rear upper arms this week.

 

[fussychicken]

Is your vehicle AHC? If yes, is there a chance that the rear ride height has chanced due to replacing the arms and thus moving the ride height sensor? This will cause driveline alignment changes and could have the effect of bring it all closer to alignment and reducing angle misalignment vibrations.

Good call out, and yes It is AHC. Last year I went through the full flow with techstream to get the pressures right and checked the heights. This week when I put in the new arms, I paint marked the arm. I also just checked the heights and they are in spec.

As for the Tom Wood shaft - I did NOT buy a double cardan, I would only suggest you do that if you are VERY comfortable adjusting the angles of your driveline.

Oh yeah totally. If I go down this path, I was just thinking about this one with the normal U-joints and the slip yoke. Seems to look much like the OEM one?

Toyota Land Cruiser Conventional Rear Drive Shaft

Toyota Land Cruiser Rear Drive Shaft, Standard If your Toyota Land Cruiser is not lifted and you are not experiencing vibrations due to increased angles, this is the shaft for you. A great option for replacing the old worn out stock drive shaft with something that is upgraded without departing...

4xshaft.com

The Tom Wood shaft that I bought was a standard one-piece driveshaft replacement. It feels good so far but I've only driven it probably 100 miles so far so I can't give it a big recommendation yet. This weekend I'll be driving something like 3-500 miles on and off road so I should have a better feel for it by Monday.

I'm assuming you got one with a slip yoke? And yeah, looking forward to hearing about your trip!

 

[fussychicken]

Wanted to share an update. My curiosity was too strong, so I went ahead and ordered ANOTHER brand new drive shaft from my local dealer. (Price wasn't actually that bad). Same pink marks as the other brand new shaft, but this time they were IN PHASE. So it is true, Mr. T isn't always right!

I was excited when I saw this at the parts counter, and quickly went home to go install it. Took it for a test drive, and no dice. Same as before. <sad trombone>

I drove around like this for a while and also realized I was delusional about the improvement that I got from the new rear upper arms. While it might have damped the vibration a bit, the drone was just as bad and unbearable.

Given the three driveshafts were all pretty similar from a drone/vibration standpoint I figure it has to be something else. The good news is that I'm more confident than ever that it is the rear output bearing in the transfer case. While I had tried to move it around like @LJE did in his video, I did this when it was cold and I didn't get much movement. The breakthrough seemed to come when I tried it again when it was hot, and there was much more movement.

So I'm gearing up to do the bearing swap soon. Really hoping this will be the root cause.


Three driveshaft walk into a bar...

Two appear to have been balanced in phase, while one does not!

 

[LJE]

That's super interesting that you saw a difference hot vs cold on that output bearing!
It's really not too bad of a job. A press would have made it easier, but I did it without one.

 

[krispykritter]

Wanted to share an update. My curiosity was too strong, so I went ahead and ordered ANOTHER brand new drive shaft from my local dealer. (Price wasn't actually that bad). Same pink marks as the other brand new shaft, but this time they were IN PHASE. So it is true, Mr. T isn't always right!

I was excited when I saw this at the parts counter, and quickly went home to go install it. Took it for a test drive, and no dice. Same as before. <sad trombone>

I drove around like this for a while and also realized I was delusional about the improvement that I got from the new rear upper arms. While it might have damped the vibration a bit, the drone was just as bad and unbearable.

Given the three driveshafts were all pretty similar from a drone/vibration standpoint I figure it has to be something else. The good news is that I'm more confident than ever that it is the rear output bearing in the transfer case. While I had tried to move it around like @LJE did in his video, I did this when it was cold and I didn't get much movement. The breakthrough seemed to come when I tried it again when it was hot, and there was much more movement.

So I'm gearing up to do the bearing swap soon. Really hoping this will be the root cause.


Three driveshaft walk into a bar...
View attachment 3834194

Two appear to have been balanced in phase, while one does not!
View attachment 3834195

View attachment 3834196

Dang - that definitely sucks. Hopefully it's the bearing and getting that swapped will solve your issue. I also have three driveshafts, but that's because I keep stuffing them into rocks.

If you ever wind up in the Denver area and wanna unload a spare.....

 

[fussychicken]

So I loaded up the parts canon and gave it another shot. Ready - Aim - Fire: BOOM! Still missed!

Transfer Case Rear Bearing: No Change
I was convinced it was going to be the transfer case rear bearing just like @LJE had. Took it all apart and once again sad trombone. The bearing was fine. Maybe a teeny tiny bit worse than the brand new bearing I put in, but nothing like what @LJE had. Was really surprised. I put the new bearing (and seal) in anyway, and took it out for a drive. No change.

I read in the 80 series forums that folks there have had this bearing go bad as well. But for the 100 series folks it seems like just one person so far.


New Rear LCA and Panhard Bar: Tiny Improvement
After I had felt some small improvement with the rear UCAs I went ahead and ordered new rear LCAs and Panhard bar from Impex. Shipping was fast with DHL once Impex got them in stock, but that took a few weeks. In any case, they finally came in and I quickly installed them. Once again sad trombone. The rubber in the old ones were as hard as a rock, but still in solid shape. It seemed to mute the vibrations a touch (just like the rear UCAs had done) but there was still basically the same drone and vibration.

At least one side benefit is the ride is indeed a touch smoother and the final bit of idle vibration that I had is nearly gone. (Changing the engine mounts also helped greatly for idle vibes)


Flipping the Shaft Around: Somewhat Better?
There seems to be highly conflicting information out there about which direction the rear shaft should run. In other words, should the yoke be by the diff or by the TC? Based on many photos I’ve seen on BAT it seems like most 100s have the yoke by the diff, but not all. I read that a few folks have had luck switching this and putting the yoke by the TC. I’ve gotten good at taking off the driveshaft so I decided to give this a shot. And HMMM! We might be onto something. There is still vibration, but the drone is much less. And the speed range is different. Now there is drone and vibration from 60mph-68ish, but from 70mph and above it is MUCH better.


Next Steps:
To me this makes me think it is gotta be driveshaft related. Just as a refresher, I’ve purchased TWO new OEM shafts and both of them vibrate. Although one of them appears to have been balanced out of phase. And also I have driven without the rear shaft (with CD locked) three different times now and it has always been smooth as can be.

In any case, I think I’m going to make the drive out to one of the few good driveline shops in the area that is about 2 hours away. Take both shafts and see if they can spin them up and see how balanced they are. If both OEM shafts are bad from Toyota I’m gonna be really happy to have found the problem but mad at Toyota.


Do I need a new bearing? Not really!

At least the new rubber is soft:

FINALLY SOME GOOD NEWS! At least I was able to fix our dishwasher during this time. Changing out the heating element wasn't too bad and now our dishes dry!

 

[fussychicken]

Can you do me a favor, and take some pictures showing the driveshaft angle at the transfer case and rear diff?

Here is some slightly more accurate data. I used the Tremec app (its free) to get these. I ran it a few times, and most of the times it was close to these numbers.

In these cases "Angle 1" is the TC and Angle 2 is the Diff angle.
So it seems like both of them are pointing slightly up? Less than 1 deg diff so should be okay?
Edit: See the post below for what these actually mean

 

[krispykritter]

Yeah - those angles sound pretty ideal. I need to do this with mine yet again. Adjustable links can be a real pain in the ... backend. Everything I've read (and checked on my truck) has said that the tail end of the t-case should have a very slight up angle. I think that means the pinion flange should have a very slight down angle to match.

 

[fussychicken]

So I was getting confused with the Tremec App and while it was giving me "green" numbers I couldn't figure out what they meant by "Angle 1 and 2"

Then I figured out the app is trying to look at not not 1, but 2 things.
1. Is your TC and Diff pointing in equal and opposite directions. They should ideally be parallel
2. It is also looking at the angle between the driveshaft and the TC (aka Angle 1) and the angle between the driveshaft and the diff (aka Angle 2). According to the app you ALSO don't want these angles to be big.

In other words, you could have you TC pointing at 0 deg and your diff point at 0 deg (which is parallel) but if there is a large vertical difference between them, the driveshaft angle will have to be large. (aka lifted truck) So this is also something you don't want according to Tremec and they suggested it should be no more than 3 deg.

After measuring some more today I made this chart to help me understand it more.

A few things I noticed:

• The Tremec app will show you the TC Angle, Diff Angle, and Driveshaft angle when you are measuring them, but they they aren't included in the "final results" So just write it down while you are doing the measurements.
• The good news is my TC and Diff seem to be pretty parallel. It is hard to get exact numbers here, but they both seem to be close to 0 deg. The TC might be pointed a touch up, and the diff might be pointed a touch down, but they are close.
• That being said, with both of them at zero-ish, that actually puts the "Angle 1 and 2" at close to the 3 deg recommendation from Tremec. And this is in a bone stock truck. And in this bone stock mode, the driveshaft is at a -2.5% angle. So in other words, it might almost be worth trying to point the TC down a touch, and having the diff point up a touch.
• For those that want to dive in more, this site helped me today understand it better: How To Properly Measure Driveline Alignment with the TREMEC Smart Phone App - https://inthegaragemedia.com/blueprint-your-driveline/

As far as how this relates to my vibration, I have no idea. Even though the TC and diff appear to be properly set parallel, I do wonder if the new motor mounts and trans mounts I put in changed the TC angle in a major way. But then when I changed all the rear sus arms, it should have moved all that back to stock angles as well. I wonder if there is a way to monkey with the TC mount to get it to point down a touch more? Anyone ever played around with this? Instead, it seems like most people get adjustable rear lower sus arms and try and point the diff up?

 

[LJE]

So I was getting confused with the Tremec App and while it was giving me "green" numbers I couldn't figure out what they meant by "Angle 1 and 2"

Then I figured out the app is trying to look at not not 1, but 2 things.
1. Is your TC and Diff pointing in equal and opposite directions. They should ideally be parallel
2. It is also looking at the angle between the driveshaft and the TC (aka Angle 1) and the angle between the driveshaft and the diff (aka Angle 2). According to the app you ALSO don't want these angles to be big.

In other words, you could have you TC pointing at 0 deg and your diff point at 0 deg (which is parallel) but if there is a large vertical difference between them, the driveshaft angle will have to be large. (aka lifted truck) So this is also something you don't want according to Tremec and they suggested it should be no more than 3 deg.

After measuring some more today I made this chart to help me understand it more.

View attachment 3845508

A few things I noticed:

• The Tremec app will show you the TC Angle, Diff Angle, and Driveshaft angle when you are measuring them, but they they aren't included in the "final results" So just write it down while you are doing the measurements.
• The good news is my TC and Diff seem to be pretty parallel. It is hard to get exact numbers here, but they both seem to be close to 0 deg. The TC might be pointed a touch up, and the diff might be pointed a touch down, but they are close.
• That being said, with both of them at zero-ish, that actually puts the "Angle 1 and 2" at close to the 3 deg recommendation from Tremec. And this is in a bone stock truck. And in this bone stock mode, the driveshaft is at a -2.5% angle. So in other words, it might almost be worth trying to point the TC down a touch, and having the diff point up a touch.
• For those that want to dive in more, this site helped me today understand it better: How To Properly Measure Driveline Alignment with the TREMEC Smart Phone App - https://inthegaragemedia.com/blueprint-your-driveline/

As far as how this relates to my vibration, I have no idea. Even though the TC and diff appear to be properly set parallel, I do wonder if the new motor mounts and trans mounts I put in changed the TC angle in a major way. But then when I changed all the rear sus arms, it should have moved all that back to stock angles as well. I wonder if there is a way to monkey with the TC mount to get it to point down a touch more? Anyone ever played around with this? Instead, it seems like most people get adjustable rear lower sus arms and try and point the diff up?

Lots of good info!

Out of curiosity, do you get any vibration/resonance when you're at a stop, idling in gear? I do. Goes away as soon as I drop it in neutral...

 

[RapidRob]

Lots of good info!

Out of curiosity, do you get any vibration/resonance when you're at a stop, idling in gear? I do. Goes away as soon as I drop it in neutral...

Did you mention an aftermarket Torque converter or is that my imagination?.
Could that have an effect?

 

[RapidRob]

Did you mention an aftermarket Torque converter or is that my imagination?.
Could that have an effect?

And by the way did you ever decide if your body mounts were okay? I did send pics and measurements in the other thread.

 

[LJE]

Did you mention an aftermarket Torque converter or is that my imagination?.
Could that have an effect?

Quite possibly. I have no idea what else was done to the trans, so it's on the suspect list. Drives & shifts smooth though.

And by the way did you ever decide if your body mounts were okay? I did send pics and measurements in the other thread.

I actually just measured these last night! I'll go update that.