Poor 100 snow+ice handling. (1 Viewer)

[uHu]

I always have the CDL on when there is "something" on the road. That something will generally be snow, slush or ice. It gives an added stability, easier to keep moving in the desired direction, particularly when it gets deep, or uphill. The behaviour of the vehicle is different though, when locked. If accellerating, or trying to, it will oversteer; while when coasting, it will understeer. It is easy to handle, I just make sure to loose enough speed before the curves, and rather give some extra power through the curve to keep steady.

 

[arbetrader]

I always have the CDL on when there is "something" on the road. That something will generally be snow, slush or ice. It gives an added stability, easier to keep moving in the desired direction, particularly when it gets deep, or uphill. The behaviour of the vehicle is different though, when locked. If accellerating, or trying to, it will oversteer; while when coasting, it will understeer. It is easy to handle, I just make sure to loose enough speed before the curves, and rather give some extra power through the curve to keep steady.

You see, and I disagree with this. I've experimented quite extensively over the last few days of heavy snow, Ice and slushy conditions. There was never a time that having the center diff locked gave me better control on regular snow covered road driving. In fact, in my LX, the opposite thing happened. I had less control. The traction was slightly better, and ONLY slightly, however control was inhibited more than that. It was quite noticeable.

However, once I was climbing up a snowy obstacle, the opposite proved to be true. With the center diff locked, I had much more traction and control when the going got very tough, for example - Offroad snowy driving, or just plain rock crawling. There is simply no arguing that matter.

I'm not sure if the fact that I have a limited slip rear differential made that difference (I kind of think it did); as it will engage instantly (causing more rear torque bias-and understeer) as opposed to the time it would take an ATRAC equipped rig to transfer power back and forth; not to mention an open diff on a 98-99 MY cruiser when the rear is unlocked.

These are my findings. I'd be interested to see if another unlocked LX owner would like to chime in with their snow driving findings in their limited slip equipped vehicles.

 

[uHu]

Should have mentioned that I have a diesel, without any atrac or limited slip.

 

[Romer]

You see, and I disagree with this. I've experimented quite extensively over the last few days of heavy snow, Ice and slushy conditions. There was never a time that having the center diff locked gave me better control on regular snow covered road driving. In fact, in my LX, the opposite thing happened. I had less control. The traction was slightly better, and ONLY slightly, however control was inhibited more than that. It was quite noticeable.

However, once I was climbing up a snowy obstacle, the opposite proved to be true. With the center diff locked, I had much more traction and control when the going got very tough, for example - Offroad snowy driving, or just plain rock crawling. There is simply no arguing that matter.

I'm not sure if the fact that I have a limited slip rear differential made that difference (I kind of think it did); as it will engage instantly (causing more rear torque bias-and understeer) as opposed to the time it would take an ATRAC equipped rig to transfer power back and forth; not to mention an open diff on a 98-99 MY cruiser when the rear is unlocked.

These are my findings. I'd be interested to see if another unlocked LX owner would like to chime in with their snow driving findings in their limited slip equipped vehicles.

The difference here is likely the ATRAC difference you mentioned

My truck performed welll so far under varying winter driving conditions. I never engaged the Center diff lock because the ATRAC would take care of a spinning wheel. A contributor is driving style in winter conditions. Once you touch the brake, ATRAC shuts off. I have over the years of winter driving learned to use the engine to brake first by downshifting before applying the brake. This means ATRAC is still working when I am starting to slow down, which is the point many start to lose traction when braking.

 

[phsycle]

ATRAC, VSC, FT 4WD are the reasons why I bought a 2000 (since the wife drives it sometimes). Has been SOLID in the snow, even with BFG KO's with 60k miles. No need to lock the CD for me. And I've driven through some doozies.

 

[Mxndrnks]

ATRAC, VSC, FT 4WD are the reasons why I bought a 2000 (since the wife drives it sometimes). Has been SOLID in the snow, even with BFG KO's with 60k miles. No need to lock the CD for me. And I've driven through some doozies.

Same experience here!

 

[uHu]

I better get a gas cruiser

Or didn't the 2007 HDJ come with all the snazziness as well? AU ?

 

[Pskhaat]

You see, and I disagree with this. I've experimented quite extensively over the last few days of heavy snow, Ice and slushy conditions. There was never a time that having the center diff locked gave me better control on regular snow covered road driving.

The difference here is likely the ATRAC difference you mentioned

I have to agree with arbetrader here: Even without ATRAC there should be no reason that standard ROAD (not off road) conditions should require or benefit from a locked center. You will in the majority of cases introduce unnecessary slip in at least one tire, whilst the fully open scenario that would not always be the case.

 

[marshotel]

The difference here is likely the ATRAC difference you mentioned

My truck performed well so far under varying winter driving conditions. I never engaged the Center diff lock because the ATRAC would take care of a spinning wheel.

This is correct. It is official, ATRAC rocks in the snow. While everyone else is spinning wheels with their open diffs, the cruiser just goes where you point it. The ATRAC light on the dash flashes like a disco party, but the wheels do not spin, even on black ice. ALL the other vehicles are sliding around Anchorage. The only system that seems to come close to ATRAC is the 4Matic system on the Mercedes Benz.

The center diff in the LC just lets you make sharp turns at low speeds. (Have you noticed the badass turning radius on the 100-series even though it is full time 4wd?). Provided you have ATRAC, there is no reason to lock the CD unless there is a possibility that you will lose traction to both wheels on the same axle at the same time.

Without ATRAC or lockers, with all open diffs, all the power goes to one tire that has no traction, and none of the power goes where you need it.

If you don't have ATRAC, then locking the center diff will at least ensure that two wheels are getting power (one front and one rear). With all open diffs and no ATRAC, you only need one wheel to lose traction to be stuck. This can easily happen on the road if you live in an icy area.

I agree with uHu. Without ATRAC, it seems like the center diff lock should be used in icy conditions.

With ATRAC, however, I have not found any need for the CDL.

 

[marshotel]

You want to be amazed? See how a 2000+ does with VSC and TRAC and CDL unlocked on the ice. Amazing! Blows lockers away!

^^^ This has been my experience exactly ^^^

 

[re_guderian]

Wasn't there a thread 2 years ago where the op in Alaska swore ATRAC tried to kill him on snow?

Edit: my bad, that was VSC.

Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...

 

[marshotel]

https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/339485-vsc-caused-me-total-my-lc-100-a-4.html

Wasn't there a thread 2 years ago where the op in Alaska swore ATRAC tried to kill him on snow?

Edit: my bad, that was VSC.

I bought that LC that he said tried to kill him. He didn't trust it anymore.
He now has a 2010 Tundra, which is also a sweet truck.

The road between Valdez and Anchorage can get pretty nasty in the winter, especially if you're in a hurry.

I think it was just really bad road conditions that tried to kill him.
It is a credit to the LC that he got away with just replacing the corner lights, bumper covers, and fixing the quarter panels.

No evidence yet that my LC is posessed, but God willing, I'll keep you posted.

 

[Layonnn]

The ATRAC light on the dash flashes like a disco party, but the wheels do not spin, even on black ice. ALL the other vehicles are sliding around Anchorage.

ATRAC works based on wheel slippage. If there are no wheels spinning, then ATRAC does not engage. When a wheel spins, that is when ATRAC kicks in.

 

[Musky]

I don't really blame the guy. I grew up learning to steer into the slide when the vehicle breaks loose on snow or ice. It would be my first reaction. I'd turn off VSC if I had it on my Landcruiser. Maybe leave it on for the wife but there's no way I'm just going to hold steady and hope the truck just somehow slows down and corrects itself in the direction I want to go.

 

[marshotel]

ATRAC works based on wheel slippage. If there are no wheels spinning, then ATRAC does not engage. When a wheel spins, that is when ATRAC kicks in.

How many revolutions of a slipping wheel do you reckon it takes before ATRAC kicks in?

I would say about one.

So yes, ATRAC senses wheel slippage, and only engages when one (or two) wheels are rotating too fast relative to the speed of the truck.

The result is that you never see an ATRAC equipped 'cruiser sitting in the ice under a stoplight spinning one front wheel and one rear wheel and not moving forward.

The ATRAC light on the dash flashes like a disco party, but the wheels do not spin [much], even on black ice.

Really, the MB 4Matic and the Audi quattro systems are the only things that even come close to ATRAC in terms of handling on ice.
Winter tires are the other half of the equation.

 

[bkgee]

Just throwing my .02 in on ATRAC performance on snow and ice... I've been driving all over an active mine for a few weeks now, with new roads being built and shifted daily, and plenty of very steep ramps and transitions between pits. we had about 5-6 inches of snow last Sunday night. while ATRAC is not the most attractive thing to hear inside the cabin, the performance is incredible. Our drillers watched me scramble all over the place with ease, and it was very difficult for HD 4x4 work trucks to follow. I will try to get some video after the next storm... if we get one

 

[re_guderian]

...Maybe leave it on for the wife but there's no way I'm just going to hold steady and hope the truck just somehow slows down and corrects itself in the direction I want to go.

This is interesting. How would you go about demonstrating that your driving skills are better, in a wider variety of circumstances, that the VSC, or vice-versa? Or it's just decades of habit that can't be changed?

I'm teaching my oldest daughter to drive right now (she's pretty good) and both my cars have VSC, so teaching her how to drive these cars is different than how I learned. I'd bet there's some pretty good validation data from car manufacturers out there on this issue.

Edit: here you go... A good chunck of the initial SUV data came from Land Cruisers and LX 470's since they came standard with VSC. NHTSA evaluated it's effectivness in a comparison of single vehicle accidents and rollovers, and showed a statistically significant reduction in accidents compared with the same model car/SUV without VSC (or ESC).

NHTSA estimates ESC will reduce single-vehicle crashes of passenger cars by 34% and single vehicle crashes of sport utility vehicles (SUVs) by 59%, with a much greater reduction of rollover crashes. NHTSA estimates ESC would save 5,300 to 9,600 lives and prevent 156,000 to 238,000 injuries in all types of crashes annually once all light vehicles on the road are equipped with ESC.

Since the data used for the initial study was from MY's 1997-2002 (where applicable with VSC), one could safely assume that the driver's of those cars learned to drive using the "turn the wheel into the direction of the skid" techniques as I did, and yet the number of accidents was still reduced meaning a few things:

a) the drivers sucked at driving anyway and never attempted to "turn into the skid" (and we're all pro's at getting ourselves out of jams here on MUD without the electronic nanny's, right?)
b) the technology works fast enough that it can outperform the human driver
c) the single vehicle collisions and rollovers that still occurred were unavoidable regardless of the driver's skill or presence of the VSC, rather than due to any competing driver-skill v VSC events.
d) or ???


sources:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Electronic+Stability+Control+(ESC)
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/809790_files/809790.pdf


edit #2: it doesn't appear that it "just" solved the woman-driver/soccer-mom issues while having no effect on us macho-men 4WD'ers either...

As a check, we also ran logistic regression analyses on the effect of passenger car ESC on the proportion of crash involvements that are single-vehicle, also controlling for vehicle age and make-model group, driver age and gender. These produced effectiveness estimates for ESC similar to Tables 1 and 2.

 

[bcripe]

I found this to be only applicable to the 98 & 99s. My 2004 does NOT exhibit the same behavior, and I do attribute this to ATRAC modulation in said situation.

I know this is an old thread but I have found my 99 to be downright dangerous on icy roads. I have owned it since 99 living in SoCal but moved to NW Montana on a road that is 30 miles each way that gets no treatment. In other words it is solid ice. I have the Nokian studded LT tires. My wife has rolled it when the backend jumped out (didn’t even crack a window in soft snow), a friend was driving it and lost control but was pulling a snowmobile trailer that hooked the ditch and straightened it out and then last winter going very slowly pulling a snowmobile trailer the rear kicked out on us going downhill and we jackknifed and almost went over the bank. Another guy has a 98 here and crashed it in similar fashion. I have driven it 250,000 miles so far and of course love it but did you ever come to a conclusion? Thank you!

My old 80 was way better!

 

[ClassyJalopy]

I know this is an old thread but I have found my 99 to be downright dangerous on icy roads. I have owned it since 99 living in SoCal but moved to NW Montana on a road that is 30 miles each way that gets no treatment. In other words it is solid ice. I have the Nokian studded LT tires. My wife has rolled it when the backend jumped out (didn’t even crack a window in soft snow), a friend was driving it and lost control but was pulling a snowmobile trailer that hooked the ditch and straightened it out and then last winter going very slowly pulling a snowmobile trailer the rear kicked out on us going downhill and we jackknifed and almost went over the bank. Another guy has a 98 here and crashed it in similar fashion. I have driven it 250,000 miles so far and of course love it but did you ever come to a conclusion? Thank you!

My old 80 was way better!View attachment 3056763

I had a 98 before and I concur. It was very difficult to carry any sort of speed in slippery conditions especially if you are on a downhill or off kilter surfaces. I believe the combination of single channel ABS for the rear (both rear wheels are served by the same brake line!) and the lack of any type of vehicle stability control, is the reason for it.
There is also some evidence of rear brakes getting more force on light application which would cause the tail-happy behavior too! I used to run dedicated snow tires in winter and still wasn't very happy with it. It was so bad that I preferred to take my 06 BMW 5 series AWD sedan with winter tires on most trips instead of the cruiser

Quite interestingly, 2000 model year and later are way more sure footed! I bought a 2001 last year and it was a pleasure to drive this winter. I am pleasantly surprised that my All Terrain tires were adequate for most of the slippery/icy conditions. In fact, I didn't even run winter tires the entire season and didn't feel insecure!! Since I had both 98 and 01 during the winter, I tried them back to back in a variety of conditions and came back impressed with my 01 on AT tires vs. 98 on Winter tires!

If you could, borrow a 2000+ 100 series and try it out. And let us know if you feel the difference too.

 

[jLB]

I don't know that I'd classify my old 80 series as better than my early 100 series, but my 06 LX (VSC/ATRAC) is much better than a 98/99 LX (no VSC/ATRAC).