Paid 3k in engine work and it still runs bad (1 Viewer)

[sj]

I just spoke with the shop and am a little frustrated. He told me there is nothing wrong with the jets it just won't pass emissions and run well as is. They said they are putting smaller jets in so it will pass emissions then they will put my old ones in so it will drive well. I told them I didn't like this idea and he said nobody ever does but it is the only way to get it to work. I asked how my car could run well, then they do the work now have all these problems. He said since I had head work done with valves that made the compression go up which increases blow by which would affect the carburation.

Is this sound logic??

He made the commit the everybody has problems with these old carbs. He even went so far as to say they raised the stardard emissions for older cars making them harder to pass, saying the goverment wants older cars off the roads. I told him I didn't quite believe that and he said they raised them a little bit over the past two years.


Sean

 

[sj]

maybe im messed up but i can't get over the cost. i can rebuild an entire engine for 3K and that all new stuff boared, plate honed even. ive priced for when my tractor blows up. thats me doing the work but damn. 3k for a head gasket and a carb rebuild. maybe i am out of touch with shop prices since i do all my own work but it sounds like you got bent over the table.

x3 on the vacuum leaks when i was looking a desmog ( fortunately able to do where i live) i was amazed at the intricate vacuum line rats nest of this engine. I would bet money on poor vacuum routing. leave your carb alone. fix your vacuum leaks.

as for your intake it only ahs a few leak areas, the intake gasket, the carb gasket, and the plethora of vacuum points, unles of course its cracked but you should be able to narrow that down with a little carb cleaner or water as was suggested.

maybe you got the new mechanic!!!!!!!!!! and the work was done on a friday.

good luck

I wonder too, They did some other stuff too. First they fixed the head gasket leak, replaced 3 valves, machined the head and what not. I then had them rebuild the carb, I was going to send it to Jim but the shop said he rebuilds these carbs all of the time. (go figure). Over the past few years I have bought some stuff to do and never did it so I had these guys do it. That was replacing the oil pan gasket, side cover gasket and one motor mount. They also said the power steering gear went bad and was leaking over everything when they were driving around. So they sent it to get rebuilt. At the time I was thinking I did have some power steering issues and these guys are reputable so I belived them, now I am not too sure.

So, the 3k was head work, carb rebuild, power steering gear rebuild, motor mount, oil pan and side cover gasket.

Sean

 

[cfdlighthouse]

I wonder too, They did some other stuff too. First they fixed the head gasket leak, replaced 3 valves, machined the head and what not. I then had them rebuild the carb, I was going to send it to Jim but the shop said he rebuilds these carbs all of the time. (go figure). Over the past few years I have bought some stuff to do and never did it so I had these guys do it. That was replacing the oil pan gasket, side cover gasket and one motor mount. They also said the power steering gear went bad and was leaking over everything when they were driving around. So they sent it to get rebuilt. At the time I was thinking I did have some power steering issues and these guys are reputable so I belived them, now I am not too sure.

So, the 3k was head work, carb rebuild, power steering gear rebuild, motor mount, oil pan and side cover gasket.

Sean

okay a little clearer on the costs now. as far as emissions i believe vehicles are grandfathered to standards as set by production date of vehicle, type of motor etc.

still wonder about the new mechanic and work done on a friday. don't let them mess with the carb. make them fix it as it is.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Changing carb jets to pass emissions is a bandaid fix for another problem. Either the carb is put together wrong, or there are issues elsewhere in the emissions system &engine.

Opinion: Get it to pass emissions, get the vehicle back and have it fixed right.

 

[Stumpalama]

They said they are putting smaller jets in so it will pass emissions then they will put my old ones in so it will drive well. I told them I didn't like this idea and he said nobody ever does but it is the only way to get it to work. I asked how my car could run well, then they do the work now have all these problems. He said since I had head work done with valves that made the compression go up which increases blow by which would affect the carburation.

Is this sound logic??

He made the commit the everybody has problems with these old carbs. He even went so far as to say they raised the stardard emissions for older cars making them harder to pass, saying the goverment wants older cars off the roads. I told him I didn't quite believe that and he said they raised them a little bit over the past two years.

Hmmm, I don't think I'd go back there... are they doing the emissions test too?

I'm gonna have to raise the BS flag on these mechanics. These "old carbs" are not problematic... My FJ40 is 26.5 years old and idles at spec 650rpm and get good gas mileage and runs as new. Maybe he says that because all those other Land Cruisers you saw at their garage run like poo because THEY work on them.

 

[CruisinFJ60]

Changing carb jets to pass emissions is a bandaid fix for another problem. Either the carb is put together wrong, or there are issues elsewhere in the emissions system &engine.

Opinion: Get it to pass emissions, get the vehicle back and have it fixed right.

from the carb man himself

 

[NocalFJ60]

Changing carb jets to pass emissions is a bandaid fix for another problem. Either the carb is put together wrong, or there are issues elsewhere in the emissions system &engine.

What about after a full engine rebuild? I agree that if it passed emissions at one point with the jets then the jets are not the problem if it fails.

 

[BMAN]

Off topic... Jared, did I just see your 55 on University at Rural around 12 noon or so today?

On topic:

Sean,

PLEASE PLEASE tell me you're not paying another dime to have them "fix" it to get through emissions? If they can get it through emmisions then make it "run" do it then you need to run for z hills. If you can get it to the meet on friday we can get all of the guys in the club who are in attendence to try to get our heads around it and figure out the problem area. I'd put my money on the fact that you've got a bad vaccume problem. Get it back and I'd be happy to do what I can to help ya track down your issues.

 

[sjpitts]

Off topic... Jared, did I just see your 55 on University at Rural around 12 noon or so today?

Possibly. I sold to my little brother. My other little brother. He goes to ASU.

Jared

// I still claim some ownership. I sold it to him for 2k, and retained the right to buy it back, should he ever want to sell it. Hence no change to the avatar.

 

[sjpitts]

I stopped by the shop to see how things were going. The mechanics are still trying to make it pass emissions. As Sean said above, they have now got it to meet the standards on hydrocarbons and NOx, but it is still failing on CO. It had 31 and the standard is 25. At least they are making progresss, the first test had a CO over 120. I

The mechanic was real defensive. He said things like he can't guarentee that it would pass emissions-- that the guys at the test station want you to fail, and that these landcruisers barely passed when they were new. Much of that sounded bogus to me.

I reminded him that it passed before the head gasket repair and carb rebuild. He said that because of the head job you could have increased compression and hence increased cylinder blow by. I don't know if that is bogus.

I agree with JimC. Let these guys get it pass emissions, make them put the original jets back in, and then try and figure out what is really wrong.

I still think it might be an intake or vacuum leak, but I don't know for sure, since I don't know if such a leak would cause those kinds of problems. I asked the mechanic if he was sure there wasn't a vacuum leak or intake leak, and he said he tested it with a "smoker" and there was no leak. I am not sure what he meant by a "smoker"

Jared

/on an unrelated note, there was a real nice beige FJ40 there with a i8mud.com sticker, getting a TBI fuel injection system. That seems like a real nice way to solve this problem, but I am sure Sean is not interested in putting another 3k into the problem.

 

[cfdlighthouse]

blow by at least in the terms i am familiar with, is the part of pre and post combustion gases that escape past the piston rings while the cyclinder is under compression before and after ignition. If you have worn rings blow by decreases compression numbers because the cylinder is loosing pressure because the seal is not as good. you will alwasy have some blow by because the stepped rings will not stop everything for the split second that intake and exhaust are closed, not sure how that affects exhaust gas emissions values unless the blow by is so significant that you loose combustion efficiency, ie dirtier exhaust but a head mill and a couple of new valves should not drastically effect emission if it passed before.

just my thoughts.

 

[Stumpalama]

Have they checked to make sure all your emissions equipment is functioning properly? how about a cracked intake manifold below the carb? That's what I chased around for a while. The thermonuclear diverter (intake heater gate thing under the carb in the exhaust manifold) can stick with it diverting exhaust onto the intake and eventually it cracks from the heating and cooling cycle.
Seriously, I'd find another mechanic, one that knows how to methodically diagnose your issues. They sound like me when I still didn't understand the while concept of vaccuum, timing and lean/rich running. Better yet, get an emissions FSM suppliment, set aside two hours and trace your stuff out yourself, get it running well, then drive up and tell 'em they're fired.
I hope you get it figured out.

 

[sj]

Well I just spoke with the mechanic and they are throwing in the towel. He said they have tried everything and there is nothing else they can do. He did say I could try and buy a new carb and see what that does but he even doubted that would work. They will put it back together and I can pick it up tomorrow. I asked him to give me a list of things they tried, he mentioned the jets, cutting off the PVC system. He said the shop is spending too many man hours to keep trying with no results. I will see what I can do when I get it back.

I will try the things you guys posted and let you know what happens. I will also see about sending the carb to Jim C.

Sean


P.S does this warrent a refund on my carb rebuild?

 

[hank14]

P.S does this warrent a refund on my carb rebuild?

Sounds to me like it warrants a refund on a large part of the labor involved, depending on what another independent mechanic finds. They should have never attempted the work in the first place if they were unfamiliar or unable to do it right the first time, IMO.

 

[CruisinFJ60]

does this warrent a refund on my carb rebuild?

i would say it warrants something as it ran better with a blown head gasket than it does now when all suposedly fixed up. that is my understanding anyway.

and increased blow by COULD effect in some small ways th tailpipe emissions but that can easily be avoided by taking the pcv that vents into the intake and letting it vent into the atmosphere. reason being is excesive blow by means more crankcase pressure and the pressure exits through the pcv into the intake as to burn the unburnt gasses and to help keep our ozone happier and by having that simply vent into the atmosphere and a plug on the intake cleaner so keep from sucking unfiltered air (or on a 62 to keep from sucking unfiltered and un metered air) and your good blow by will no longer effect the emissions. having been a tech, servic writer, and service manager for some larger corporate companys i have worked with all kinds of mechanics. some have been around for years and are supposedly "good" but are actually completly worthless others who have a couple or few years under theyre belts and a good understanding of how things work can sometimes be the greatest. sometimes the exact opposite. it is hit or miss but in my personal experience there are more bad / un knowledgable mechanics than there are good ones i dont care if they have been around for 40 years or 40 minutes.

 

[cruiserpants]

"P.S does this warrent a refund on my carb rebuild?”

Knee-jerk reaction would be “YES” you should get a refund, but sadly in the real world you need facts to back up the claim.
One option would be to take it to Toyota and have them trouble shoot it (may cost a few bucks). At least, that way you could get an estimate in writing to back up any claim or refund you want (from the shop that created the mess) - providing that the problem was, in fact, created by them.
Have the shop also refund the cost of trouble shooting the problem - this shouldn't cost you any more than it already has.

Without something in writing it would be your word against theirs – and they may take an attitude and say “prove it”.

 

[sj]

I picked up my cruiser yesterday. The shop said they took my 60 to emissions about six times and put in about $40 worth of gas. They wanted to charge me for both the emission tests, gas, and one hour of labor. After discussing it for a little while they took off the hour shop time. Which left me a bill about $100, I could tell they wouldn't let me take it so I paid the bill and got out of there.

I have a question regarding some of the things the mechanic said.

I asked about a carb rebuild refund and he got really mad. He said the the 60 runs great and could go another 200k miles, but it will NEVER pass emissions. He said that having it run properly and passing emissions are not the same thing. I don't understand this? I asked how it could run properly, which to me means toyota spec, and not pass emissions. He said they are two seperate things. I told him I am going to take it someplace else and he got even more mad. He said nobody will get it to work right, he then went off how he has been working on toyota's since 72 and started naming all of these places he went for schooling. He then got up and walked out leaving me to talk with his secretary about things she had no clue. I finally said that I was going to take it to someone else and if they do it right and will be back for a refund.

Has anybody ever been told that you will never pass emissions again?

His suggestion was to buy a new Toyota carb, but then he said he doubted that would even work. I asked if its not the carb what is the problem, he couldn't answer that.

It is failing on the CO, when I first went through it was at 125 with a limit of 25. I have their records and they show values of 100,30, and the last one jumped up to 250. On the last test even the HC were around 8 with a limit of 3 or 4.

 

[sven]

Emissions testing waiver

getting in late on this one but if you need some time, most states offer an emissions waiver for a limited time depending on the age of the car. with receipts in hand (unfortunately typically spent after your first documented failure) you can apply for a waiver under certain conditions. not sure what state you are in but our in the NC works ok......had to do it once for my Volvo.

 

[jb welda]

the fact is, i think the mechanic has a bit of a point, despite him seemingly acting like an a$$ and walking out on you like that. in california anyway its getting almost impossible to get a carburated auto through smog check unless everything is in tip top shape and even then it seems impossible sometimes. one of the reasons i went for a sbc with throttle body injection, though the tbi can be nearly as bad. typically i ask my mechanic (on other vehicles i have) to first tune the car to pass smog, run the test, and then retune it to run well. strange as it may seem, that seems to be what you need to do in california with anything less than an injected motor. when the motor stock toyota motor was brand new, with new vacumn lines and all equipment, and the smog standards were a lot looser, it was not a problem. now however the smog standards have tightened up a lot (again, in cali anyway, not sure where you are) and add to that 20 years on all your peripheral equipment and you end up in this situation. the real point of smog check in cali is to get your car off the road without seeming to be too facist about it...they want only prius on the road these days and for everyone to ride the stinkin bus. most (non enthusiasts) would hear that from the mechanic and sell the vehicle to the state and give up on it in favor of a "flavor of the day" eco-box and thats their aim...to frustrate owners of older cars enough that they just pitch it in and junk the car.

im not saying everything they did was right, but my experience kind of goes along with what the mechanic is saying: even buying a brand new carb is no guarantee of passing smog. having them tune it to pass and then retune it to run may in fact be the only way to do it. and most smog stations arent real keen on doing that because they are jeopardizing their smog license.

anyway it will be interesting to hear what the next guy you bring it to says and what you end up having to do to get past the smog monster.

one love
jah bill

 

[cruiserpants]

Sorry if this puts a stick in the spokes, but I disagree with your mechanic on a few accounts:

Although it is true that even a new carburetor does not guarantee a vehicle will pass emission in and of itself, your cruiser did not have it’s carburetor rebuilt barring anything else. The shop basically took apart the top end of the engine, and then rebuilt it in a “supposedly” professional manner and up to Toyota specifications (again “supposedly”).

With the amount of work done, I would think that it should be in better condition than before the head gasket work, and indeed pass emissions – that’s their job!

Your emissions problem could be anything from an improperly adjusted mixture, oxygen sensor, defective evaporative canister, an inoperative catalytic converter, etc, etc, etc. The engine running hotter than normal (3/4 on your gauge) also bothers me a little. But, without seeing and running some tests in person, I don’t want to start guessing at this.

The shop owner and mechanics are probably very frustrated, and they have no doubt reached their limit of knowledge regarding emissions, carburetors, and related specs. Basically at this point, they are just scratching their heads. I don’t think there is anyway you will find satisfaction through them. And even if they did manage to pull a rabbit out of their hat and fix the cruiser, you would probably not trust the work done (and rightfully so).

Don’t get too many hands involved in this; the end results will be a lot of finger pointing. You need a plan, and the first thing is to find out what is wrong: There may be parts left out or attached wrong, adjustments that are not correct, or just sloppy workmanship. Without the proper equipment, and time under the hood, any of us would just be shooting in the dark - guessing at the problem and/or solution.

Take it to a reputable Toyota dealer and get a repair estimate, then you can at least figure out a plan of attack.

Anyway, sorry for the long post...just my .02 cents