orangefj45
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Combo ready to "mate". Or so I thought .....
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orangefj45
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i went to bolt the pair together for a "dry run" to make sure everything bolted up. well, it did'nt. well, sort of. i was able to bolt the combo together but when i tried to tighten up the 5 bolts holding the orion to the adapter, they bottomed out. i had seen this before and was fully aware this might happen. so grind the bolts shorter, chamfer the ends, clean up the threads and try again. much better. now at least they're mated up flush.
spoke too soon......now the input shaft of the transmission will only turn in neutral, but not in any gear. so something's binding up the transmission. i pull the combo back apart and realize that the bearing race in the adapter, used to index the orion onto the 465 to keep them concentric, is sticking out of the back of the adapter quite a bit. i get my micrometer out and sure enough, it'll just bottom out against the orion. but having done so, it got pushed into the adapter and was now pressing against the locking tab washer for the rear main shaft bearing preload nut on the 465.
so i call Merle ...... and after a ten minute conversation i suggest that i'll take the adapter back off the 465, press the bearing race out, shorten the heigth by the required amount and then try again.
so i do all that and after come careful measuring, i take off .035"
i put the race back in, re-install the adapter with a new gm gasket ( cause you know the other gasket did'nt come off in one piece ) and try again. this time it works. the transmission turns smoothly in every gear, nothing is rubbing, nothing is binding.
spoke too soon......now the input shaft of the transmission will only turn in neutral, but not in any gear. so something's binding up the transmission. i pull the combo back apart and realize that the bearing race in the adapter, used to index the orion onto the 465 to keep them concentric, is sticking out of the back of the adapter quite a bit. i get my micrometer out and sure enough, it'll just bottom out against the orion. but having done so, it got pushed into the adapter and was now pressing against the locking tab washer for the rear main shaft bearing preload nut on the 465.
so i call Merle ...... and after a ten minute conversation i suggest that i'll take the adapter back off the 465, press the bearing race out, shorten the heigth by the required amount and then try again.
so i do all that and after come careful measuring, i take off .035"
i put the race back in, re-install the adapter with a new gm gasket ( cause you know the other gasket did'nt come off in one piece ) and try again. this time it works. the transmission turns smoothly in every gear, nothing is rubbing, nothing is binding.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Here's a couple of detailed pics showing the back of the adapter and the shortened race as well as the rear bearing nut and locking tab washer.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
so the only thing left to do is to slide the t-case input gear on the transmission main shaft, tighten up the bolt with plenty of red loctite and install the pto cover. then the combo is ready to go in. right?
WRONG!!!!!
I slide on the input gear ( had done so on every "dry run" even tried it on the new main shaft before rebuilding the trans.
the gear slides on and into position just fine. but as soon as i install the bolt and washer ( and tighten them gently with my hand an an impact socket ), the entire geartrain locks up.
at this point i'm getting a little frustrated with this project but i can only laugh at it since i'm gatting my ass kicked pretty bad. but i'll win in the end. i always do. good thing i'm stubborn and like to figure things out.
so after taking a breather i come back to the combo and after a very short inspection i realize that the t-case input gear is bottoming out against the orion case. crap.
so i call Merle again. i give him the good news about modifying the bearing race first, then i hit him with the input gear issue. he's somewhat perplexed but more than happy to help with info. i discuss the issue with him and one of his guys, stever. very helpful bunch and good guys to deal with. always have been. we agree that there needs to be some sort of spacer to keep the orion input gear frm sliding towards the 465 too far.
soooooo, back apart they come. but before i divroce these two again, i measure where the input gear needs to ride to mesh perfectly with the idler gear.
well, none of the spacers i had in my "spacer bucket" were just the right ID. and most of them were too long. but one spacer from a split case will due with some machine work. problem is, most spacers are hardened steel so they won't collapse or mushroom over time. this one was too. i chucked it up in the lathe and tried to cut a chamfer in the leading edge. nothing but squealing and glowing little liny ships. good way to ruin your tooling .......
so i take another breather. then i decide to call in some help. i get one the phone with my buddies at AA/ none of them had seen this setup before. can't blame them, that's why they make their spud-shaft style adapters. i call Merle back, not much info there either.
so i call poser. we've exchanged plenty of t-case and other tech in the past. i tell him about the issue and he mentions that mike aka treeroot had a similar issue a couple of years ago and had posted something on his site but it was down. steve remembers him using a spacer or thurst washer. that's the ticket! a factory hardened thrust washer for the output gears in the one-piece t-case. great idea.
i garb one out of my orion hardware bins and what do you know, it's prefect! fwiw, i like using the oem thrust washers because they're not only hardened and extremely great metallurgy, but they're also slightly chamfered on the inner edges so there's less change of any particles contaminating the trans or t-case.
anyhow, long story short, if you're going to run a plate adapter with an SM465 and orion, then you'll need to modify the bearing race in the adapter, but the 5 adapter bolts down to length and run a thrust washer in front of the t-case input gear. all of that can be done in 15-20 minutes if you know about it. if you don't, then you can spend most of a day figuring it all out. i do get a few phone calls a day so there are "interruptions".
nevermind keeping the rest of the guys/projects at the shop going.
hth
georg @ valley hybrids
WRONG!!!!!
I slide on the input gear ( had done so on every "dry run" even tried it on the new main shaft before rebuilding the trans.
the gear slides on and into position just fine. but as soon as i install the bolt and washer ( and tighten them gently with my hand an an impact socket ), the entire geartrain locks up.
at this point i'm getting a little frustrated with this project but i can only laugh at it since i'm gatting my ass kicked pretty bad. but i'll win in the end. i always do. good thing i'm stubborn and like to figure things out.
so after taking a breather i come back to the combo and after a very short inspection i realize that the t-case input gear is bottoming out against the orion case. crap.
so i call Merle again. i give him the good news about modifying the bearing race first, then i hit him with the input gear issue. he's somewhat perplexed but more than happy to help with info. i discuss the issue with him and one of his guys, stever. very helpful bunch and good guys to deal with. always have been. we agree that there needs to be some sort of spacer to keep the orion input gear frm sliding towards the 465 too far.
soooooo, back apart they come. but before i divroce these two again, i measure where the input gear needs to ride to mesh perfectly with the idler gear.
well, none of the spacers i had in my "spacer bucket" were just the right ID. and most of them were too long. but one spacer from a split case will due with some machine work. problem is, most spacers are hardened steel so they won't collapse or mushroom over time. this one was too. i chucked it up in the lathe and tried to cut a chamfer in the leading edge. nothing but squealing and glowing little liny ships. good way to ruin your tooling .......
so i take another breather. then i decide to call in some help. i get one the phone with my buddies at AA/ none of them had seen this setup before. can't blame them, that's why they make their spud-shaft style adapters. i call Merle back, not much info there either.
so i call poser. we've exchanged plenty of t-case and other tech in the past. i tell him about the issue and he mentions that mike aka treeroot had a similar issue a couple of years ago and had posted something on his site but it was down. steve remembers him using a spacer or thurst washer. that's the ticket! a factory hardened thrust washer for the output gears in the one-piece t-case. great idea.
i garb one out of my orion hardware bins and what do you know, it's prefect! fwiw, i like using the oem thrust washers because they're not only hardened and extremely great metallurgy, but they're also slightly chamfered on the inner edges so there's less change of any particles contaminating the trans or t-case.
anyhow, long story short, if you're going to run a plate adapter with an SM465 and orion, then you'll need to modify the bearing race in the adapter, but the 5 adapter bolts down to length and run a thrust washer in front of the t-case input gear. all of that can be done in 15-20 minutes if you know about it. if you don't, then you can spend most of a day figuring it all out. i do get a few phone calls a day so there are "interruptions".
nevermind keeping the rest of the guys/projects at the shop going.
hth
georg @ valley hybrids
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Here's a couple of pics showing where the thrust washer needs to go.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Perfect input gear to idler mesh/spacing and the completed combo.
Hth
Georg @ valley hybrids
Hth
Georg @ valley hybrids
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
ps: if anybody thinks it's all "fun and games" working on cruisers all day, then head down to your local cruiser shop. we'll prove you wrong!
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Holy Crap Georg. What a mess and resolution. Nice way to stay with it. That's the difference between the pros and the rest of us.
I'm still wanting to do this at some point. Would you recommend the plate adapter with the 465? That's the route I want to go.
I'm still wanting to do this at some point. Would you recommend the plate adapter with the 465? That's the route I want to go.
Glad to be of service and even more glad to hear you got that thing all sorted out with some great tech along the way. I don't think it was an SM465 conversion but there was an adapter that required a similar spacer to keep the input gear off of the case, I ended up finding something that worked but the thrust washers are a good find!
Not yet, Ive been concentrating on finishing up the install of the man-a-fre 28 gallon gas tank in my 67 40, which has required a bunch of massaging to get it to be a clean install. Im gonna tackle the orion hopefully soon. Thnx
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Fwiw. AA just got a limited number of cases. They're filling back-orders and sending them out. I got all the cases I ordered but had two clients back out so I have 2 extra Orion kits in stock if anybody needs one ASAP.
Georg @ valley hybrids
Georg @ valley hybrids
Last edited:
Georg,
You mean to tell me you are not able to assemble these by feel alone? That is how a local shop down here (LA County) does things and why they only last a few hundred miles before they eat themselves alive!!! And that is exactly why I will gladly drive 400 miles to have piece of mind knowing the job is done right.
You mean to tell me you are not able to assemble these by feel alone? That is how a local shop down here (LA County) does things and why they only last a few hundred miles before they eat themselves alive!!! And that is exactly why I will gladly drive 400 miles to have piece of mind knowing the job is done right.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
"by feel"?! i did'nt know people went noodeling in L.A. i thought that was an LA ( Louisiana ) thing?!
Thanks for hooking up my buddy withe the Orion yesterday, Georg.
MicahMan
TLCA 20925
So stoked for mine!
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
thanks micah! let me know how it turns out.
i'm starting on 3 more right now..........
georg @ valley hybrids
MicahMan
TLCA 20925
Tracking say it will show up today!
