Learn from me - Bad build experience Ed Martin (1 Viewer)

[radman]

Just to clarify:
You commissioned a brand new build under the impression that Ed Martin Toyota was going to do all the work?
Your build got posted here on mud, someone called out the error on the rock lights, those got fixed, and soon after you take delivery of the rig? Did you fly to IN or they shipped to you?

How long until you noticed the gas smell, frame damage, and other issues?

Who did all the rework?

Shady for sure. Someone should go back and watch all the build videos to see if they claim all the work or dance around that part.

 

[wiseinvestor]

That sounds beyond frustrating and I don't want to ruffle feathers (disclosure: I know the dealership and am friends with the manager.)
I may be ignorant on this issue, but I don't think it is unusual for dealerships to outsource aftermarket add on's. I purchased a pickup from GM and the bed cover was aftermarket installed by a another company. The window tint, ppfl, leather seat covers, and audio upgrades were all also outsourced to different companies on that truck.

In my experience with this dealership, they have been upfront about the outsourcing of particular jobs and I agree that ultimately the dealership should stand behind the subcontracted work. My2cents

 

[BVE]

Glad he’s your friend but you can’t compare bed liner and other minimal add-ons to things like re-gearing or adding a long range fuel tank to a 90k stock truck.

Not only is the work being outsourced but it seems like installs are done wrong/sloppy and in some cases causing major damage or potential for it. I would be livid if that were me.

And the few people I’ve seen say the same thing about these installs had no idea the work was outsourced. Sounds shady.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Many people do not know that the company that does work for dealerships is called DSI (DSI Custom Vehicles) They are a Transamerica company that also owns 4Wheel Parts. It is very common that a lot of dealerships use them for aftermarket work if the scope of work is outside the expertise of the dealership. That does not mean the work is done outside the dealers control.

I am not defending or stating anything on this, but they are typically the company that does the work and then offers warranty on the mods on a brand new vehicle. That is about the only way to get mods on a brand new vehicle under warranty.

As for the technical issues, I hope you get it resolved with Eric. I also do have some questions / comments re: the technical side.

1. What tank were you running. If the 12 gallon tank, it is an extremely tight fit and could probably rub on the bottom of the body and cause interference with the charcoal canister. We are not huge fans of installing the 12 gallon tank.

2. What is it in the slider design that allowed for the installer to crush the frame? If through bolts are used to attach to the frame, then there should always be a crush sleeve on the inside to prevent that. Otherwise either the install or the flexing of the slider in use will continuously pull on the bolt head/ nut and try to compress the frame.

I sincerely hope you get it all resolved. Being in the modification business as well, I can assure you that we always have the customers best interest at heart however mistakes does happen, products (even ours) have issues which might only later show up or third party installations are botched because other installers does not have the intimate knowledge of your products.

What I would suggest is making a clear list of all the deficiencies and address them on a one by one basis and try as best to keep emotions out of it to work towards a resolution.

 

[FerrisBueller]

You should also be careful how you represent the situation in this forum setting. This set of really expensive mistakes are what lawsuits are made of, and any of the three parties involved here could potentially file a lawsuit depending on how things play out.

I appreciate the warning, but also be careful to cover your interests in however this plays out.

I'm not a lawyer, so you should probably ignore everything I just said

 

[KLF]

I predict this thread will implode and disappear soon.

I was told by the shop they had to bend back the bud built backing plate.

Not sure what you mean by "backing plate", but that is impressive if they bent the main mounting flange, since they are 3/8" thick. But you are probably talking about the plates that they put on the back side of the rail, they are 1/4" thick and about the size of a standard playing card. It's obvious they ignored the instructions and over-torqued the massive 5/8" bolts. Big bolts need big torque, right? There are quite a few of them (all using existing holes) and the thought is to spread out the load across many points, instead of few sleeved holes.

 

[wiseinvestor]

Glad he’s your friend but you can’t compare bed liner and other minimal add-ons to things like re-gearing or adding a long range fuel tank to a 90k stock truck.
Sounds shady.

I would be emotional too, and I really wasn't trying to compare my $5k in truck upgrades to anything in particular. I have no dog in this. I hope the OP gets everything sorted.

 

[Karbon]

I hope that not only your issues get resolved but that there is a level-headed, open conversation on both ends. I'm primarily referring to the peanut gallery like myself who have zero investment in either side. I don't even want to take my vehicles to get their yearly inspection, let alone but a new car and contract a build.

As stated by others, I'd like to see pictures and details so we as a group can avoid these mistakes on future builds. I know the experience of learning what not to do from this forum has helped probably more so than what to do.

Best of luck, and I hope this doesn't stain the beauty of 200-series ownership.

 

[Eric Sarjeant]

We definitely made some errors on this build. It's humbling and embarrassing to be chastised publicly.

We've built north of 100 200's over the past two years. I've made a lot of friends and relationships and hopefully that will continue for a long time. I personally supervise each one, I am intimately familiar with any issue that may happen after the fact. I can't speak for every shop, but I would assume from time to time, mistake(s) are made. Even in our service shop that writes 45k repair orders a year, even with our master techs, mistakes happen, and the right thing to do is to own it and apologize and sometimes you can make a friend and sometimes you will be written-off forever.

As mentioned in this OPs post, we did mount the rock lights in a vulnerable (to rock scraping) area on the sliders, we corrected by fabricating custom mounts using existing frame holes. We tack welded the holes to fill, polished-to-smooth metal, painted with matching paint per the manufacture.

As mentioned in other posts on Mud, we use vendors for various parts of our builds. DSI (4WP) Indy, is one of them. It would be inaccurate to say that they "do our builds" because they don't. But they do do some things such as non-OEM suspension installation and rarely (but in this case) slider installation. They also help with misc other things that fit their wheel-house. I have fully disclosed this on Mud and made no secret that we use their wholesale arm them for the simple reason that they offer a 6-yr/80k warranty unconditional parts/labor warranty on any work they do on a new vehicle. This limits exposure to my enterprise in the event something failed or was done improperly. This is particularly important because Toyota strictly prohibits lifting any vehicle with (Toyota Safety Sense) TSS. Toyota is released of all liability when the height is adjusted. The DSI warranty is the only insurance product on the market to my knowledge that picks up that liability.

Dealers sub-out lots of things that people may not be aware are not done in-house (i.e. paint, dent repair, windshields, wheel repair, paint film/coatings, remote starters, window tint, hitches, bed liners, etc.). Similarly to a dentist subbing out his crowns to a company that "does crowns" or your general contractor subbing out a roof, drywall, paint, plumber, electrician, etc to the appropriate vendor as their specialty. I feel terrible that the OP felt lied to, that was not the intention in any way.

At the end of the day, we did fail him. As noted in the OPs threat, the evap canister was not mounted correctly and the sliders were over torqued (which did not damage the frame). I consulted the manufacture of the sliders and worked with his local repair shop to remedy (both which are experts). The metal has a memory and the frame was restored to proper shape when uninstalled/reinstalled.

I believe that a few switched were reversed, which were corrected easily. The biggest issue was the LRA / evap canister issue. The OP states of a gas smell, that I can't comment on too much because the tank was reinstalled /inspected at another shop.

As the OP states: I have paid every invoice in-full, plus additional 4-hour inspection of every component of the build. I've apologized privately and again publicly right here / right now.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Based on personal experience with the nearby 4 Wheel Parts, and friends' experiences (horror stories) with other 4 Wheel Parts locations, I would be livid if they so much as touched my key fob. Paying a top-tier dealer to do the work and finding out it was done at 4WP... I would be asking for that truck to be bought back and a full refund. Good luck, op.

 

[RET2]

With no dog in the parade I'll say that Chit happens and can happen to just about anybody but IMHO how it's mitigated/solved is very, very important. Of ongoing concern to me would be the regearing and locker installation.

 

[dnh1]

I am sorry for your experience.

Eric / Ed Martin built two 200s for me (even thought I am half way across the country from him) and I can personally say he is one of the nicest, most hard-working and well-meaning people I have ever met. His dealership has been responsive to me about everything and Eric has personally emailed or texted me whenever I had questions with very rapid responses. I have never seen anything like it in terms of the manager of a car dealership.

There is always a choice to handle things privately or publicly. It appears that he has tried to right every wrong and continues to do so.

 

[TeCKis300]

Welcome to the world of aftermarket parts and installs. None of this is atypical or unexpected when doing this degree of modification to a complex vehicle.

Shakedowns and some degree troubleshooting should always be expected. It's why every manufacturer, especially at the highest level of the game, tests and validates even the slightest change.

Can we expect Toyota levels of delivered perfection for an aftermarket modified rig? No. Can we expect Toyota levels of support from a Toyota dealership commissioned build? Probably to some degree and it does seem like Eric is trying on his end.

Going back to Toyota levels of perfection...that's just never going to happen with aftermarket parts. Subbing out portions is a normal and healthy part of business and that's not the problem here IMO. As much blame can and should be placed on the aftermarket parts. LRA tanks, I was the first to fully document the clearance issues with the evap-canister here on these boards. Was I upset that there was an issue - I've been playing this game long enough that it's the nature of aftermarket parts and for anyone to think otherwise...will always be disappointed. (why I always use OEM parts if possible) Fed the info back to the distributor with the hope that the aftermarket manufacturer will correct the deficiencies in good faith for future customers. Sliders, sounds like the same deal.

I'd recommend to continue shaking down and work through the issues with Eric's help. Keep the lines of communication open. It's part of the game with modified rigs. Less so, but sometimes also true for factory rigs. The after sales support is what counts and makes the difference.

 

[loop737]

From the OP,
Dealer has so far paid for rework and repairs and apologized for my experience.

Hmmm, so why trash them on the internet? To “warn” others? Is that it? Last I checked, Mr. Sarjeant is a well regarded member of this forum, he’s obviously passionate about cruisers, sells a lot of em, and contributes much here. He also builds lots of these things, if he was botching it up on a regular basis, I think we’d know about it.

No one forced this guy to take what is probably the best built, most well put together light truck on the market, and start modding the hell out of it. If you try to out-engineer Toyota, bad things might happen. Anyway, they took responsibility and did their best to make things right, not sure what else can be expected.

 

[mbach]

I gave no time constraint and only asked that things were done right.

What is the cause of error(s) in my build? I've never been offered an explanation.
What assurance is there that all these issues won't happen to the next customer?

 

[GordJ]

We definitely made some errors on this build. It's humbling and embarrassing to be chastised publicly.

We've built north of 100 200's over the past two years. I've made a lot of friends and relationships and hopefully that will continue for a long time. I personally supervise each one, I am intimately familiar with any issue that may happen after the fact. I can't speak for every shop, but I would assume from time to time, mistake(s) are made. Even in our service shop that writes 45k repair orders a year, even with our master techs, mistakes happen, and the right thing to do is to own it and apologize and sometimes you can make a friend and sometimes you will be written-off forever.

As mentioned in this OPs post, we did mount the rock lights in a vulnerable (to rock scraping) area on the sliders, we corrected by fabricating custom mounts using existing frame holes. We tack welded the holes to fill, polished-to-smooth metal, painted with matching paint per the manufacture.

As mentioned in other posts on Mud, we use vendors for various parts of our builds. DSI (4WP) Indy, is one of them. It would be inaccurate to say that they "do our builds" because they don't. But they do do some things such as non-OEM suspension installation and rarely (but in this case) slider installation. They also help with misc other things that fit their wheel-house. I have fully disclosed this on Mud and made no secret that we use their wholesale arm them for the simple reason that they offer a 6-yr/80k warranty unconditional parts/labor warranty on any work they do on a new vehicle. This limits exposure to my enterprise in the event something failed or was done improperly. This is particularly important because Toyota strictly prohibits lifting any vehicle with (Toyota Safety Sense) TSS. Toyota is released of all liability when the height is adjusted. The DSI warranty is the only insurance product on the market to my knowledge that picks up that liability.

Dealers sub-out lots of things that people may not be aware are not done in-house (i.e. paint, dent repair, windshields, wheel repair, paint film/coatings, remote starters, window tint, hitches, bed liners, etc.). Similarly to a dentist subbing out his crowns to a company that "does crowns" or your general contractor subbing out a roof, drywall, paint, plumber, electrician, etc to the appropriate vendor as their specialty. I feel terrible that the OP felt lied to, that was not the intention in any way.

At the end of the day, we did fail him. As noted in the OPs threat, the evap canister was not mounted correctly and the sliders were over torqued (which did not damage the frame). I consulted the manufacture of the sliders and worked with his local repair shop to remedy (both which are experts). The metal has a memory and the frame was restored to proper shape when uninstalled/reinstalled.

I believe that a few switched were reversed, which were corrected easily. The biggest issue was the LRA / evap canister issue. The OP states of a gas smell, that I can't comment on too much because the tank was reinstalled /inspected at another shop.

As the OP states: I have paid every invoice in-full, plus additional 4-hour inspection of every component of the build. I've apologized privately and again publicly right here / right now.

Amazing response. Kudos to Eric. Shame it happened but great response.

 

[40Man]

From the OP,
Dealer has so far paid for rework and repairs and apologized for my experience.

Hmmm, so why trash them on the internet? To “warn” others? Is that it? Last I checked, Mr. Sarjeant is a well regarded member of this forum, he’s obviously passionate about cruisers, sells a lot of em, and contributes much here. He also builds lots of these things, if he was botching it up on a regular basis, I think we’d know about it.

No one forced this guy to take what is probably the best built, most well put together light truck on the market, and start modding the hell out of it. If you try to out-engineer Toyota, bad things might happen. Anyway, they took responsibility and did their best to make things right, not sure what else can be expected.

Agreed, when I have an issue with a service provider, if they do what Eric did here, and do everything in their power to make it right, I'm not sure what the problem is, and I would not vent publicly if I get taken care of in a reasonable manner. We are all human and make mistakes, but owning up to them and making sure a customer is taken care of is what separates a good vendor from a bad one. Now if you do a poor job, and don't own it, then trash away. There are many bad suppliers out there, and I've learned who to avoid on this site. Ed Martin is definitely not on that list.

Yes, it would be nice to be more informed that 4WP is involved in the builds. While I understand why they'd do that (for warranty), it would be generally be a non-starter for me, as I have had HORRIBLE experiences with 4WP like many others. Then again, if I had a great vendor like Eric backing up the work, that gives a lot of comfort.

Eric spends a ton of time on this site, and provides a lot of free support via the forum. He also offers a unique situation to get great builds on new rigs, which is a rarity.

I have no issue with the OP venting his concerns, it is good to have lots of transparency, but if anything, it gives me more comfort with Eric as he is clearly backing up the work, and showing why he is an asset to the LC community.

 

[mbach]

I take great exception to the word "trash".
While I knew I wouldn't make any friends with this posting I made it to inform.
If this were simply meant to be a harmful post imagine how I felt months ago.

 

[Madtiger]

So, is everything fixed If this happened months ago? Or is the truck still at Ed Martin getting corrected?

 

[BVE]

Aftermarket is aftermarket and most of us know that, but who is touching the rig?

Sucks all around and glad to see things are getting taken care of but what I’ve taken from this:

Communication is key - seems like OP had no idea who did what. Not unreasonable to be upset about that.
Bad installations - who inspects post install? If certain things require care or knowledge (ie LRA tank) who is responsible for making sure it’s right before delivery? Is it the same guys doing the 200 builds at 4WP parts or the guy who is available at the time?

Bottomline is - if I bought a pile of aftermarket parts and I’m not installing them personally, it’s going to be a shortlist of folks who I trust to do it. If I pay my trusted mechanic only to find he outsourced the work elsewhere, I’d be upset. That’s the issue I see here. This isn’t just playing the aftermarket game and losing, its all about care of who is touching it. Things get outsourced everywhere and when you’re paying people to represent your reputation, they’d better be ****ing good.

This doesn’t read like a trashing post to me, I really appreciate the transparency, especially with dealers. Eric is also showing that part of being a good service provider is owning up and fixing things when you make a mistake. I appreciate that as well.