Interesting. It would work like a revolver shackle. Revolver shackles are pretty unpopular though, but I think its the "double shackle" function that is so unpopular and not so much the revolver function.
Leaf Sliders
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Interesting. It would work like a revolver shackle. Revolver shackles are pretty unpopular though, but I think its the "double shackle" function that is so unpopular and not so much the revolver function.
I still think that for drag racing and street application this would have more use, off-road application is far too abusive for something like that. If you use UHMW or similar products they would wear rather quickly, and even a little wear would cause undesired effects. Dust, dirt, mud, water and sand would speed up this process and add to the wear (unless the entire unit is sealed which you can't do). The issue with weight, constant articulation and sudden weight applied to the unit would be a concern in both the plastic and the bearing version. If the bearing was heavy duty enough to absorb the impacts and wear then it might work, but you would still have crap getting into the track. Having the track a little rounded (not the original straight line) would put additional resistance to the travel, uneven wear and possibly aid in the unit seizing up (but that would require some serious wear). I'm just not sure of what advantage this would have, it would be more maintenance for sure, if the issue is with hitting shackles on rocks before the tire goes over the obstacle, just do a shackle reversal.
It might work beter if the bearings where on the bracket and a bit flexible block sliding in between. It would spread the load and give some flex in the joint.
Well, the bearing would see elements, but not alot of rotation (comparitively).
If you could put washers on either side of each bearing with a grease nipple on the outer washer, you might be able to pull it off if you arent in water and mud on a regular basis.
If you got 3+ years out of the bearings with in frequent greasing, it might be worth the effort. At least replacing the bearings would be reasonably cheap and simple.
If you could put washers on either side of each bearing with a grease nipple on the outer washer, you might be able to pull it off if you arent in water and mud on a regular basis.
If you got 3+ years out of the bearings with in frequent greasing, it might be worth the effort. At least replacing the bearings would be reasonably cheap and simple.
A few years back yeti mountain bikes designed something similar on their downhill mountain bikes, they worked well until they got caked with mud, great idea though
Yeti still uses the slide system ^^^^
Here's my take after researching, deciding to run the LII sliders and installing them:
Why sliders? I've built two forward shackle rigs now and both performed very well on the trail. The first I traded to a friend for my first 40. He has been wheeling it for over 5 years now with no complaints. I built my last buggy with a front shackle setup similar to how my current 40 build is configured. It worked great but I was pushing things hard enough to bend 3/8" plate shackles. I'm not sure what was causing the bends, but it could have been any number of things, I drove it with no regard. When I started this build with leafs I wanted a shackle forward design to run a regualr slip driveline, and I think they wheel better with little compromise to speed in the rough (if any). I stumbled upon sliders and began talking about different aspects of the different designs with the members of my team. Three are fabricators by trade (one builds desert trucks, one rock crawlers and one welds stainless pipe) another is a ME, whose father in law has been building and racing drag cars for a long time.
Seems even the drag race guys have problems with the bearing-based sliders getting dirty and sticking. The available options also fall a little short for long travel suspensions. We decided to give the LII sliders a shot and I made a couple phone calls to Tim before ordering. I will be ordering some spare glide pucks to keep on the rig and in the pits, but believe Tim when he says he has not replaced his in three years. Plenty of mud on the east coast.
Install thoughts: These units are very well built. The outer shells are one formed piece. I read a comment about a continuous weld along the guide bars, but I feel that wuld be overkill. If that's your style, go for it! On my build I am minimizing everything, even my welds to save weight. The glide pucks are spaced by steel sleeves that rest against the bushing sleeve. The glide pucks see no compression loads, they support weight and slide only. If the pucks were to fail, the steel sleeves would ride on the channel. Other than some noise, I suspect it wouldn't be very noticeable if they were to fail. The spring bushing would keep the spring from moving around excessively. There was a note written in sharpie with 10-15 degrees, that I assume was a suggestion for mounting angle. This would help with what some are discussing as far as droop travel. I did not want to or plan to mount mine that way, and in fact would have lost travel with my particular springs. The deaver springs I am running have reversed eyes for spring over applications. I had to remove about 1.5" of the back brace to accomodate the travel I am using. Angling the slide bucket at 10-15 degrees would have bottomed my main leaf against the bucket before the spring was flat.
Will it work? I don't know, but I think so. I may have lost a little (1" or so) of wheel travel vs a modest shackle, but that movement is also somewhat uncontrolled (free fall) where as the slide operates 100% with the spring rate. It should be predictable and dependable, and provide easier tuning. I've got 5.5" of true vertical uptravel as currently setup.
Thanks for the interest, please keep the comments and criticism coming!
Why sliders? I've built two forward shackle rigs now and both performed very well on the trail. The first I traded to a friend for my first 40. He has been wheeling it for over 5 years now with no complaints. I built my last buggy with a front shackle setup similar to how my current 40 build is configured. It worked great but I was pushing things hard enough to bend 3/8" plate shackles. I'm not sure what was causing the bends, but it could have been any number of things, I drove it with no regard. When I started this build with leafs I wanted a shackle forward design to run a regualr slip driveline, and I think they wheel better with little compromise to speed in the rough (if any). I stumbled upon sliders and began talking about different aspects of the different designs with the members of my team. Three are fabricators by trade (one builds desert trucks, one rock crawlers and one welds stainless pipe) another is a ME, whose father in law has been building and racing drag cars for a long time.
Seems even the drag race guys have problems with the bearing-based sliders getting dirty and sticking. The available options also fall a little short for long travel suspensions. We decided to give the LII sliders a shot and I made a couple phone calls to Tim before ordering. I will be ordering some spare glide pucks to keep on the rig and in the pits, but believe Tim when he says he has not replaced his in three years. Plenty of mud on the east coast.
Install thoughts: These units are very well built. The outer shells are one formed piece. I read a comment about a continuous weld along the guide bars, but I feel that wuld be overkill. If that's your style, go for it! On my build I am minimizing everything, even my welds to save weight. The glide pucks are spaced by steel sleeves that rest against the bushing sleeve. The glide pucks see no compression loads, they support weight and slide only. If the pucks were to fail, the steel sleeves would ride on the channel. Other than some noise, I suspect it wouldn't be very noticeable if they were to fail. The spring bushing would keep the spring from moving around excessively. There was a note written in sharpie with 10-15 degrees, that I assume was a suggestion for mounting angle. This would help with what some are discussing as far as droop travel. I did not want to or plan to mount mine that way, and in fact would have lost travel with my particular springs. The deaver springs I am running have reversed eyes for spring over applications. I had to remove about 1.5" of the back brace to accomodate the travel I am using. Angling the slide bucket at 10-15 degrees would have bottomed my main leaf against the bucket before the spring was flat.
Will it work? I don't know, but I think so. I may have lost a little (1" or so) of wheel travel vs a modest shackle, but that movement is also somewhat uncontrolled (free fall) where as the slide operates 100% with the spring rate. It should be predictable and dependable, and provide easier tuning. I've got 5.5" of true vertical uptravel as currently setup.
Thanks for the interest, please keep the comments and criticism coming!
I think a linear slide is more natural to the travel path. Mounting the slide at more of an angle would accomplish the same thing, while maintaining a linear travel path. I believe a regular eye leaf spring would have no interference with the slider box.
Thanks Wilson.
Could you write that in crayon, for the special ed? I'm not picturing it. Thanks.
Could you write that in crayon, for the special ed? I'm not picturing it. Thanks.
The way I have it in my head, as the slope of the range of motion changes, so does it effect the spring rate.
Also, as the axle droops to get one wheel on the ground, the more the slot points downward the less resistance from the spring to get it there (your now compressing the spring inwards to get the axle to droop).
Although, this may be negligible, and be more work then benefit.
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The slide is only accomodating the stretch and shrink of the leaf as it travels. It doesn't apply leverage the way that a shackle does. I've played with shackle angles over the years and understand what you're getting at, but I do not see the slide functioning that way. I think a non-linear design will cause load stress points on the slide mechanism at your curve point.
I think you mean the arch will create a "pocket" where the pin will want to sit, causing more wear in one area?
Shackles have always seemed strange in how they apply forces to the frame/structure. Kind of like trying to do the splits on an ice rink, and then to stand up by pulling your legs inwards.
Instead of an upward force on the frame, they shackles would want to press the shackle mounts towards each other, creating more of a "shear" force on the mounts, and the leverage from the shackle has gotta create a bit of slop too.
I think in comparison to shackles, these would keep the axle from shifting laterally a lot better, and Im not sure how a stress point would be caused?
Having the slider move thru an arc negates the benifits of using a slider, to keep the spring rate actuation linear, just as wilson stated. Additional benefits include: they keep caster relatively stable thru axle travel, and much better lateral control of the axle. For more reading RPM Net Tech Articles: Leaf Springs - Powered by: AFCO
...in a race car.
Cody's design would allow additional axle droop over any other design (shackles or linear sliders), which would be undesirable in a race car, but very desirable in a crawler. With the addition of orbit-eye springs to cobat any binding along the arch, I'm convinced it would be the closest you could get to links and coils, plus you could have the slider end at the front and still maintain saginaw steering.
Wilson,
I have been very interested in the LII shackle sliders; so much so that I purchased a set last year, but not having any welding/fab skills, I have done nothing with them, but communicate with a few fab shops in Northern California in hopes of having these built into a nice slider (shackle) forward set up on the front of my 4Runner or Hiluxes like your old first gen runner had with shackles forward. The problem is that at least four fabricators (three of whom have been in Nor Cal for a very long time and have great reps) seem not as keen on the slider idea. I heard the same critcisms about dirt incompatibility, delrin wear, noise, and then I have also heard that once the slider boxes get banged hard on the rocks, and they get deformed even slightly, the springs will bind and not slide correctly.
My counter to such criticism was that the builder should mount the boxes in a away where they have protection around them (possibly with a boxed in skid plate that covers the slider boxes, does not interfere with the sliding movement, and which can be unbolted to remove the leaf springs).
I think running the boxes up front as an integrated part of a custom plate bumper would be bad ass. I am not trying to get the hackneyed shackle forward vs. reverse shackle debate started, but I am very drawn to what you have done with your rigs in the past.
I posted the following on Marlin's board, thinking that I spied your old truck in some pics there in 2009, but I didn't:
Juds One Ton Single Cab
And these are the posts that I referenced:
Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board - View Single Post - Tricks to keeping it low as possible?
Forward shackles and flipped springs - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board
You may get a kick out of the fact that I was very interested and actually inspired by your shackle forward set up a few years ago, but unfortunately, I never did anything to get more info straight from the horse's mouth.
Do you have pics of what you are working on with Timmay's slider boxes?
If so post up please. Thanks also for your posts.
BTW, I have also heard that with a slider box forward (where the front spring's fixed end is located rearward at the fire wall), one will start bending leaf springs very easily, but my thoughts are that bending springs in such a way would really happen much more easily in the case of forward mounted shackles jamming into rocks and forcing the spring to krinkle up. However, with a slider box up front, the springs would be relatively protected, and bending would only occur if enough force was applied to the front axle or tires, and the vehicle could not climb over the obstacle that was causing sever rearward force against its leaf springs. Desert racing and this set up probably would not work, especially with the front axle having to push forward as it compresses on landings and encounters bumps or woops, but you know what? I doubt that I will ever be in that scene beyond the spectators' realm. ***** Sorry, I know this is the hardcore section.***** But, I want something that rolls smooth enough on the roads and highways to the trails, and a trail rig that deals with the mononotonously slow crawling that I still really enjoy. I can say that if I got the front axle lodged in a spot where the rear was pushing the vehicle forward, but obstacle allowed no possibility for the front axle to move upward and over, I'd probably pull back in reverse (if possible) and pick a different line.
Also, I can see another "pro" in that one could easily run a traction bar from the center section of the truck, and it would articulate in a similar arc with the drive line and leaf springs (just like a rear suspension). I'd love not having to worry about a long slip drive line, wierd u-joint and pinion angles, like you can get with shackles in the rearward position. Also, I'd like not to have to worry about the tires stuffing rearward into the firewall or trimming back that way either.
I am very interest to see and hear more about what you are doing, Wilson. If you know a great fabricator who is actually interested in building such a set up, I am all ears. It seems beyond stupid to pay someone a decent amount of money to build a front suspension that he conceptually disagrees with, you know?
I have been very interested in the LII shackle sliders; so much so that I purchased a set last year, but not having any welding/fab skills, I have done nothing with them, but communicate with a few fab shops in Northern California in hopes of having these built into a nice slider (shackle) forward set up on the front of my 4Runner or Hiluxes like your old first gen runner had with shackles forward. The problem is that at least four fabricators (three of whom have been in Nor Cal for a very long time and have great reps) seem not as keen on the slider idea. I heard the same critcisms about dirt incompatibility, delrin wear, noise, and then I have also heard that once the slider boxes get banged hard on the rocks, and they get deformed even slightly, the springs will bind and not slide correctly.
My counter to such criticism was that the builder should mount the boxes in a away where they have protection around them (possibly with a boxed in skid plate that covers the slider boxes, does not interfere with the sliding movement, and which can be unbolted to remove the leaf springs).
I think running the boxes up front as an integrated part of a custom plate bumper would be bad ass. I am not trying to get the hackneyed shackle forward vs. reverse shackle debate started, but I am very drawn to what you have done with your rigs in the past.
I posted the following on Marlin's board, thinking that I spied your old truck in some pics there in 2009, but I didn't:
Juds One Ton Single Cab
And these are the posts that I referenced:
Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board - View Single Post - Tricks to keeping it low as possible?
Forward shackles and flipped springs - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board
You may get a kick out of the fact that I was very interested and actually inspired by your shackle forward set up a few years ago, but unfortunately, I never did anything to get more info straight from the horse's mouth.
Do you have pics of what you are working on with Timmay's slider boxes?
If so post up please. Thanks also for your posts.
BTW, I have also heard that with a slider box forward (where the front spring's fixed end is located rearward at the fire wall), one will start bending leaf springs very easily, but my thoughts are that bending springs in such a way would really happen much more easily in the case of forward mounted shackles jamming into rocks and forcing the spring to krinkle up. However, with a slider box up front, the springs would be relatively protected, and bending would only occur if enough force was applied to the front axle or tires, and the vehicle could not climb over the obstacle that was causing sever rearward force against its leaf springs. Desert racing and this set up probably would not work, especially with the front axle having to push forward as it compresses on landings and encounters bumps or woops, but you know what? I doubt that I will ever be in that scene beyond the spectators' realm. ***** Sorry, I know this is the hardcore section.***** But, I want something that rolls smooth enough on the roads and highways to the trails, and a trail rig that deals with the mononotonously slow crawling that I still really enjoy. I can say that if I got the front axle lodged in a spot where the rear was pushing the vehicle forward, but obstacle allowed no possibility for the front axle to move upward and over, I'd probably pull back in reverse (if possible) and pick a different line.
Also, I can see another "pro" in that one could easily run a traction bar from the center section of the truck, and it would articulate in a similar arc with the drive line and leaf springs (just like a rear suspension). I'd love not having to worry about a long slip drive line, wierd u-joint and pinion angles, like you can get with shackles in the rearward position. Also, I'd like not to have to worry about the tires stuffing rearward into the firewall or trimming back that way either.
I am very interest to see and hear more about what you are doing, Wilson. If you know a great fabricator who is actually interested in building such a set up, I am all ears. It seems beyond stupid to pay someone a decent amount of money to build a front suspension that he conceptually disagrees with, you know?
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Someone send me some, I'll put em on and wheel and beat the crap out of them. If they work in the rocks and mud / dirt we will know shortly.
I think some people are imagining much faster wear than I think will occur. But that's just me.
I think some people are imagining much faster wear than I think will occur. But that's just me.
I think people naturally tend to doubt the unknown or lesser known more than the tried and trued.
You don't see people always knocking down the idea or concept of running heim joints just because they may not deal with mud and sand as well as polybushinged leaf springs, right? Bad comparison? Maybe, but there is not a ton of published build or use reports for these yet. I am eager to see and hear more.
I am tempted to send mine to you.
You don't see people always knocking down the idea or concept of running heim joints just because they may not deal with mud and sand as well as polybushinged leaf springs, right? Bad comparison? Maybe, but there is not a ton of published build or use reports for these yet. I am eager to see and hear more.
I am tempted to send mine to you.
4WheelUnderground
Suspension is EVERYTHING
Forgive me for coming on late in this discussion but it seems to me that this design would lend more lateral stability to a leaf sprung desing over the "A" typical shackle setup. It does seem like you would loose some wheel travle but I do see some advantage to letting the leaf compress forward vs. rearward for the front axle.
I like it.
I like it.
If someone wants to give me exact dimensions I can CAD something up and try and get a some quotes on how much to cut and bend these up from a couple shops in town.
Specifically the horizontal distance of travel for the leaf, as well as the width of the bolt slot (dia. of bolt) and the width between sides.
