Leaf Sliders (2 Viewers)

[CruisinFJ60]

I think people naturally tend to doubt the unknown or lesser known more than the tried and trued.

You don't see people always knocking down the idea or concept of running heim joints just because they may not deal with mud and sand as well as polybushinged leaf springs, right? Bad comparison? Maybe, but there is not a ton of published build or use reports for these yet. I am eager to see and hear more.

I am tempted to send mine to you.

kinda going off topic here, but...

The only thing I dont really like about heims (joints in this case) is they are generally not serviceable and have a low pre-load on them.
The low pre-load makes them easy to install, but when wore out you have to replace the whole unit.

a jonny joint is generally rebuildable and greasable but have a very high pre-load.
the high pre-load makes them a pain to get on when having to line them up but when they wear you can re build them and save a little money.

everything will wear out over time, some things faster than others. I think the derlin used will last longer in the mud and dirt than some expect. and as for it melting it being a hard low friction material it will keep the heat build up down and thus wear down.

 

[handcannon]

I've been following this thread closely from the start. I am intrigued by the concept. The first pics on this thread shows a slider with the slide on an angle. To me this will somewhat mimic the action of the shackle. As the spring compresses the slide mechanism moves the eye forward and up, closer to the frame, just like a shackle will. As the spring droops the eye moves back and down, away from the frame, just like a shackle will.

What I'm wondering about is how well would the slider work if the angle was steeper, but still in a straight line like the first pic in this thread. One of the concerns expressed earlier was for the possible loss in droop with a slider. For those with longer shackles maybe a steeper angle of the slide could closely mimic the action of a longer shackle.

This intrigues me enough that I think I'll take the time to do some figuring on this and see how it would compare to a longer shackle. I've been concerned about the lateral stability with long shackles when on the highway. It looks like sliders would cure this problem.

Don

 

[cody c]

I've been following this thread closely from the start. I am intrigued by the concept. The first pics on this thread shows a slider with the slide on an angle. To me this will somewhat mimic the action of the shackle. As the spring compresses the slide mechanism moves the eye forward and up, closer to the frame, just like a shackle will. As the spring droops the eye moves back and down, away from the frame, just like a shackle will.

What I'm wondering about is how well would the slider work if the angle was steeper, but still in a straight line like the first pic in this thread. One of the concerns expressed earlier was for the possible loss in droop with a slider. For those with longer shackles maybe a steeper angle of the slide could closely mimic the action of a longer shackle.

This intrigues me enough that I think I'll take the time to do some figuring on this and see how it would compare to a longer shackle. I've been concerned about the lateral stability with long shackles when on the highway. It looks like sliders would cure this problem.

Don

Define "long shackle" as in 3" pin to pin, or larger?

Then look at the arc over its range of motion (maybe 70 degrees?), to me that is the "benchmark" or range of motion to match or better with a slider.

 

[handcannon]

Define "long shackle" as in 3" pin to pin, or larger?

Then look at the arc over its range of motion (maybe 70 degrees?), to me that is the "benchmark" or range of motion to match or better with a slider.

When I think of long shackles I think of anything over 4". I put FJ55 rear springs front and rear on my 40, keeping the stock spring hanger locations. I'm after the best articulation I can get from these FJ55 springs. This required long shackles.

Keeping in mind the length of the springs when totally flat, I made my shackles 5 3/4" pin to pin. This length will keep the spring eye from hitting the frame under full compression. Because of a cracked head I haven't been able to try this setup out yet to see how far the shackle will swing under full droop.

After posting last night I drew out my estimate of where I thought my shackles would move, from full compression to full droop. Since you have CAD I'm going to try to explain what i drew out. It's been too many years since I had drafting classes in Community College so my terminology my be way off. My classes were back before CAD became the best way to get started.

I used the center of the front spring shackle pivot point as the center and scribed an arc with a 5 3/4" radius. I went from horizontal in front to horizontal in back for a full 180* sweep from the center point for my drawing.

Since I wasn't sure of the swing of my shackles I arbitrarily chose 12 1/4* down from horizontal in front as the maximum up travel of the shackle and spring eye under full compression. I'll call this point "A". I then, again arbitrarily, went to 22 1/2* back of vertical for the maximum rearward travel of the shackle and spring eye at full droop. I'll call this point "B". This gives 100 1/4* of estimated travel from full compression to full droop for my 5 3/4" shackles. I don't know if these FJ55 springs will be that flexible in this setup, but that is what I drew out.

Now, if this was a slider instead of a shackle, these are the dimensions I came up with. The distance from "A" to "B" in a straight line is 8 29/32s. I don't know what the angle is as I don't have a way to measure the angle. The vertical distance between "A" and "B" is 4 3/16ths. The horizontal distance between "A" and "B" is 7 27/32s. These dimensions are not necessarily real accurate. I was using my tape measure.

Hopefully I will have time tomorrow to use my floor jacks to simulate articulation to see how well I did estimating the maximum travel of the shackles. Then I'll make needed corrections to my drawing.

I hope my descriptions are clearer than mud.

Don

 

[cody c]

When I think of long shackles I think of anything over 4". I put FJ55 rear springs front and rear on my 40, keeping the stock spring hanger locations. I'm after the best articulation I can get from these FJ55 springs. This required long shackles.

Keeping in mind the length of the springs when totally flat, I made my shackles 5 3/4" pin to pin. This length will keep the spring eye from hitting the frame under full compression. Because of a cracked head I haven't been able to try this setup out yet to see how far the shackle will swing under full droop.

After posting last night I drew out my estimate of where I thought my shackles would move, from full compression to full droop. Since you have CAD I'm going to try to explain what i drew out. It's been too many years since I had drafting classes in Community College so my terminology my be way off. My classes were back before CAD became the best way to get started.

I used the center of the front spring shackle pivot point as the center and scribed an arc with a 5 3/4" radius. I went from horizontal in front to horizontal in back for a full 180* sweep from the center point for my drawing.

Since I wasn't sure of the swing of my shackles I arbitrarily chose 12 1/4* down from horizontal in front as the maximum up travel of the shackle and spring eye under full compression. I'll call this point "A". I then, again arbitrarily, went to 22 1/2* back of vertical for the maximum rearward travel of the shackle and spring eye at full droop. I'll call this point "B". This gives 100 1/4* of estimated travel from full compression to full droop for my 5 3/4" shackles. I don't know if these FJ55 springs will be that flexible in this setup, but that is what I drew out.

Now, if this was a slider instead of a shackle, these are the dimensions I came up with. The distance from "A" to "B" in a straight line is 8 29/32s. I don't know what the angle is as I don't have a way to measure the angle. The vertical distance between "A" and "B" is 4 3/16ths. The horizontal distance between "A" and "B" is 7 27/32s. These dimensions are not necessarily real accurate. I was using my tape measure.

Hopefully I will have time tomorrow to use my floor jacks to simulate articulation to see how well I did estimating the maximum travel of the shackles. Then I'll make needed corrections to my drawing.

I hope my descriptions are clearer than mud.

Don

Yup, comparitive dimensions for the arc slider, though this is just a scratch together drawing, rotating and scaling the arc could change horizontal and vertical dimensions. But gives an idea of size.

 

[handcannon]

I finally had time to simulate compression and droop. I didn't get near what I thought I would for droop. I used a floor jack under one side of the front axle and another under the opposite side in the rear. Compression up front came close to my estimate, close enough to stay with the 12 1/4* max on the shackle angle. Droop was disappointing. I couldn't even get to vertical. All I got was about 53* from horizontal for less than 40* of actual shackle movement.

Using these points as "A" and "B" to get the actual angle for the slot in a slider I'm afraid would produce too much angle to allow the slider to work smoothly and easily. Droop would move easily, but a lot of force would be needed to move the slider "up hill" against the angle to allow the spring to compress. A shallower angle would be needed for smooth and easy operation of the slider.

Some articulation would be lost with this slider, over a shackle. But, if it spent more time as a DD than a hardcore wheeler I think the trade off would be worth the more stable on road manners.

I'm still intrigued by this concept.

Don

 

[Wilson]

Wilson,

I have been very interested in the LII shackle sliders; so much so that I purchased a set last year, but not having any welding/fab skills, I have done nothing with them, but communicate with a few fab shops in Northern California in hopes of having these built into a nice slider (shackle) forward set up on the front of my 4Runner or Hiluxes like your old first gen runner had with shackles forward. The problem is that at least four fabricators (three of whom have been in Nor Cal for a very long time and have great reps) seem not as keen on the slider idea. I heard the same critcisms about dirt incompatibility, delrin wear, noise, and then I have also heard that once the slider boxes get banged hard on the rocks, and they get deformed even slightly, the springs will bind and not slide correctly.

My counter to such criticism was that the builder should mount the boxes in a away where they have protection around them (possibly with a boxed in skid plate that covers the slider boxes, does not interfere with the sliding movement, and which can be unbolted to remove the leaf springs).

I think running the boxes up front as an integrated part of a custom plate bumper would be bad ass. I am not trying to get the hackneyed shackle forward vs. reverse shackle debate started, but I am very drawn to what you have done with your rigs in the past.

I posted the following on Marlin's board, thinking that I spied your old truck in some pics there in 2009, but I didn't:

Juds One Ton Single Cab

And these are the posts that I referenced:

Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board - View Single Post - Tricks to keeping it low as possible?

Forward shackles and flipped springs - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

You may get a kick out of the fact that I was very interested and actually inspired by your shackle forward set up a few years ago, but unfortunately, I never did anything to get more info straight from the horse's mouth.

Do you have pics of what you are working on with Timmay's slider boxes?

If so post up please. Thanks also for your posts.

BTW, I have also heard that with a slider box forward (where the front spring's fixed end is located rearward at the fire wall), one will start bending leaf springs very easily, but my thoughts are that bending springs in such a way would really happen much more easily in the case of forward mounted shackles jamming into rocks and forcing the spring to krinkle up. However, with a slider box up front, the springs would be relatively protected, and bending would only occur if enough force was applied to the front axle or tires, and the vehicle could not climb over the obstacle that was causing sever rearward force against its leaf springs. Desert racing and this set up probably would not work, especially with the front axle having to push forward as it compresses on landings and encounters bumps or woops, but you know what? I doubt that I will ever be in that scene beyond the spectators' realm. ***** Sorry, I know this is the hardcore section.***** But, I want something that rolls smooth enough on the roads and highways to the trails, and a trail rig that deals with the mononotonously slow crawling that I still really enjoy. I can say that if I got the front axle lodged in a spot where the rear was pushing the vehicle forward, but obstacle allowed no possibility for the front axle to move upward and over, I'd probably pull back in reverse (if possible) and pick a different line.

Also, I can see another "pro" in that one could easily run a traction bar from the center section of the truck, and it would articulate in a similar arc with the drive line and leaf springs (just like a rear suspension). I'd love not having to worry about a long slip drive line, wierd u-joint and pinion angles, like you can get with shackles in the rearward position. Also, I'd like not to have to worry about the tires stuffing rearward into the firewall or trimming back that way either.

I am very interest to see and hear more about what you are doing, Wilson. If you know a great fabricator who is actually interested in building such a set up, I am all ears. It seems beyond stupid to pay someone a decent amount of money to build a front suspension that he conceptually disagrees with, you know?

Thanks, This is the third rear fixed mount leaf suspension that I've done and I'll be building a copy of the 4runner for another friend. the original owner of the "4skinner" has been wheeling it for about five years now. He did add an anti-wrap bar just as you described to deal with the soft leafs.

4skinner:

Here's how I set up my last buggy:

I had read that if you can get the shackle spring eye at a higher elevation than the fixed mount it helps with the harshness of the ride. Newer Ford superduty's are setup this way. I ran trail gear 3" leafs on the buggy. Unfortunately the will wrap was on the shackle end, I did not go through the effort of flipping the wrap leaf, like I did on my current deaver's. I did bend those springs, but it WAS NOT from driving at speed in the desert. I bent them after backing into a 12' vertical plow wall, dumping the clutch and holding the pedal to the floor for almost two minutes with my 42" rockers at 2 psi on pavement. I continued to wheel the buggy that way and even sold it with the leafs bent a bit. The other problem I had was bending the shackles. The sliders should take care of that.

I do know a very talented fabricator that would work with you. I hired him for some work on my last buggy and after spending a week in it at KOH last year, he was as impressed as I was and is working on wrapping up a forward shackle mini-truck right now.

 

[kblack77]

There is a 40 in the club I started running with a year ago. He has had these sliders on the back of his 40 for several years. His son has them on an old cj3, I have been very impressed and intriaged by them. I don't think he articulates any less than my 40. I can not remember what issues he said went away when he did this.....some help I have been . He might even be on here, next time I talk to him I will see. Here is a pic, as you ca see them on the rear.

 

[zembalayan]

Wilson,

What you write is all very good news about real world app. of this type of front leaf suspension design, and the pics and your results seal it further for me as something I would like to try for sure. Thanks posting up the pics, too. I really like how you mounted the shackles as part of your tube stinger/bumper on the buggy, where the shackles can swing back and forth from a point above the frame rails even. Again, this just seems like a really good idea and result that goes against the usual configuration that the sellers of the cookie cutter Toyota SAS kits popularized so much, which work very well by all means (I have a Marlin/Betts kit on my 4Runner).

But even so I have wondered why more mini truck SASers do not use FJ60/80 series forward swing steering boxes instead of an IFS box with leaves so they can avoid hacking into their radiator supports and having to emulate the Quasi/4RnrRick or Blueberry Crunch-type of frame mods.? I would guess that it's because most already have a perfectly good IFS box to use for an SAS, and the usual SAS kit shock mount incorporates a hooped and frame mounted tube that would interfere with a rearward mounted FJ60/80 steering box unless the tubed shock mount was bent and mounted in a much wider configuration to the frame so that the tubed shock mount could straddle the FJ60/80 steering box.

Well, you do/did something different than the norm, AND you commented and posted pics in threads like this so my hat's off to you, sir!

Considering the extremely low lift craze among the budget conscious leaf sprung crowd, I am also curious as to why that slice of people are not running variations or set ups like yours so they can actually get a bit of up travel with an arched spring instead running a flat RUF pack while cursing the fact they had to use a front drop hanger to get clearance for their IFS box's sector shaft, their drag link and their tie rod. I find it a bit amusing that the low lift crowd would seem to scoff at my current 1980 Toy 4x4 with bolt-on (not yet broken in) perky front and rear Old Man Emu 2.5" lift springs, which now allow me somewhat decent up and down travel , but which give my truck a towering infernoride height of 22.5" from frame rail to ground on newer 33s; instead, they seem to drool over any rig with no up travel on a minimalist flat RUF pack that rides at 18" from frame to ground. Don't get me wrong--stock sprung low riders look cool and wheel to a point. RUFs do fine as well.

Anyway, my point is that your rigs seem to get at the best of all worlds--lower ride heights, leaf spring cheapness/reliability, possibilities for better than expected up travel so then why are we not seeing more of what you are doing from the lowrider RUF crowd?


I know I'd like to employ your ideas to use with my 1980's OME springs, which already made a huge performance difference. I wheeled mine last summer and actually loved them. I even felt good running some very rocky terrain at decent speeds; however, by going to shackles or slider boxes up front I could run 35" and keep my tires out of the firewall, and I am pretty sure that I could work in an 80 series steering box for a cross over set up with an aqualu arm that I have kept in my back pocket for a while and succesfully run a cross over drag link above my springs and keep my current tie rod (Marlink) below the springs, just as the tie rod is now.

Even so, I bet with shackles up front I could still run a Marlin Histeer kit I have as well with no clearance issues either because the shackles up front should provide more more clearance than in the rear since they sort of replace or build in the height you get from an SAS kit’s front drop hanger.

Again, please keep posting as you have been on any developments in this area. Very interested to see more.

BTW, I have some questions:

(1) How'd you like the Deavers?

(2) Did you hand fabricate the drop shackles on the 4skinner, or did you buy those pre-fabbed. Are they 5”ers? How? Where? Any recommendations? I saw several pricey versions at polyperformance.

(3) Does having the shackles at the front and rear of the vehicle with the springs’ fixed point mounted toward the center of the vehicle cause any funny(ier) handling manners at speed in your experience? I am sort of wondering about a reverse skateboard effect--and yes, I will apologize in advance for not knowing the proper terminology that all of the link gurus out there so adroitly use, but I think you know what mean here. (Maybe Brian O. from 4Wheel Under Ground can chime in here with his opinion or experiences with regard to this effect as well.) For instance, when you turn right; the vehicle's weight shifts left, and the left side springs compress and lengthen, causing the relative left side hub positions of both the rear and front axels to seperate, or to put it another way the right turn causes the front axle to steer right and the rear axle to steer left, causing a sharper turn right since the overall wheel base on the left side of the vehicle lengthens as the left side springs compress, which would seem to increase or at least not counteract the weight shift to the left; whereas, on a typical leaf sprung mini truck set up, you turn right; the vehicle's weight shifts left, and the left side springs compress and lengthen, but the wheel base (theoretically) remains constant, but with the relative left side hub positions of both the rear and front axles moving rearward, or to put it another way the right turn causes the front axle to steer left and the rear axle to steer left, which would seem to cause the vehicle to want to remain moving straight ahead rather than continue to steer right or even tend to steer more to the right. I am wondering about feel and performance differences. Can you speak to your experiences here?

(4) What are your thoughts on running drop shackles bolted to an All Pro/Marlin/TG style SAS kit's front drop hanger? Too tall?

Thanks also for the offer to refer me to the fabricator you have worked with. I will PM you more about that.

 

[zembalayan]

There is a 40 in the club I started running with a year ago. He has had these sliders on the back of his 40 for several years. Here is a pic, as you ca see them on the rear.

Cool!

 

[cody c]

I just might try building a set of these for my 60/hilux.

I plan on using 60 series rear leafs front and back, since there is a few different choices in bolts for leafs, does anyone know the best source (largest greasable bolt) to build this?

Edit: looks like there is a few different sizes, but the larger ones are at the rear of a 60 (5/8" dia.)

 

[handcannon]

Please keep us posted on how things go. I'm also seriously considering a set of these for my front as they will take care of a concern about the long shackles hanging up on things (no shackle reversal). It will be a while though since my 40 isn't running. Cracked head and no money, had a used head given to me, but turns out it will need $300-400 to get new valve guides, grind valves, stitch a crack between a couple valves, pressure test, and surface the head.

Don

 

[cody c]

Next question...

The plastic used for the sliding bolt, what's best? Where's a good place to get some?

I know there are a few plastics out there, whats gonna be the best for this?

 

[Wilson]

Wilson,



(1) How'd you like the Deavers?

I haven't run them, but am convinced you would be hard pressed to find a better quality spring. I've run Alcan and their customer service was downright crap and cost me a lot of money to finally get what I had thought I was ordering from day one. If someone wants the most out of a leaf setup, I think it's wise to invest in good springs and shocks, not off the shelf parts, leave those for the masses.

(2) Did you hand fabricate the drop shackles on the 4skinner, or did you buy those pre-fabbed. Are they 5”ers? How? Where? Any recommendations? I saw several pricey versions at polyperformance.

The shackles on the skinner are stock chevy or ford tension shackles... too easy to use, vs hand fabricating.

(3) Does having the shackles at the front and rear of the vehicle with the springs’ fixed point mounted toward the center of the vehicle cause any funny(ier) handling manners at speed in your experience? I am sort of wondering about a reverse skateboard effect--and yes, I will apologize in advance for not knowing the proper terminology that all of the link gurus out there so adroitly use, but I think you know what mean here. (Maybe Brian O. from 4Wheel Under Ground can chime in here with his opinion or experiences with regard to this effect as well.) For instance, when you turn right; the vehicle's weight shifts left, and the left side springs compress and lengthen, causing the relative left side hub positions of both the rear and front axels to seperate, or to put it another way the right turn causes the front axle to steer right and the rear axle to steer left, causing a sharper turn right since the overall wheel base on the left side of the vehicle lengthens as the left side springs compress, which would seem to increase or at least not counteract the weight shift to the left; whereas, on a typical leaf sprung mini truck set up, you turn right; the vehicle's weight shifts left, and the left side springs compress and lengthen, but the wheel base (theoretically) remains constant, but with the relative left side hub positions of both the rear and front axles moving rearward, or to put it another way the right turn causes the front axle to steer left and the rear axle to steer left, which would seem to cause the vehicle to want to remain moving straight ahead rather than continue to steer right or even tend to steer more to the right. I am wondering about feel and performance differences. Can you speak to your experiences here?

I didn't notice ANY ill effects on the buggy. It was full hydro, butthe rig honestly handled on rails in the chop all over johnson valley. I put plenty of dirt road miles on it as well. It was solid. I have also not heard anything bad about the skinner and it sees street duty for beer runs and other errands.

(4) What are your thoughts on running drop shackles bolted to an All Pro/Marlin/TG style SAS kit's front drop hanger? Too tall?

Too tall and changes the suspension geometry. Since the skinner I've moved towards getting the forward spring eye above the rear eye. The skinner was still this way, I've just been moving everything up.

Thanks also for the offer to refer me to the fabricator you have worked with. I will PM you more about that.

Pm sent, I'm also getting under way on another 4runner build. That one is slated for shackles similar to the buggy, one tons and 42's.

 

[zembalayan]

Excellent! Thanks a lot, Wilson.

 

[handcannon]

Next question...

The plastic used for the sliding bolt, what's best? Where's a good place to get some?

I know there are a few plastics out there, whats gonna be the best for this?

In my experience working with/around it I'd use UHMW (ultra high molecular weight), (I think it's a teflon). Anyway, it is very tough, very resistant to abrasion. I've been around it when it was used as a chain rubbing block on machinery, gang saw throat plates, etc. The only thing I've seen where it will not hold up is with heat.

The slider function to me would be a perfect fit. Low speed movement and supporting weight.

It is also very easily machined with common woodworking tools such as saws, router and shaper bits (carbide tipped is best), drill bits, etc.

As to where to get it. I've found it at industrial supply houses. I've never checked this place, but maybe Graingers.

Don

 

[Rambrush]

Thinking outloud would Delrin plastic work? it is available from Mcmaster Carr.

Next question...

The plastic used for the sliding bolt, what's best? Where's a good place to get some?

I know there are a few plastics out there, whats gonna be the best for this?

 

[Fast Eddy]

The plastic used for the sliding bolt, what's best? Where's a good place to get some?

Thinking outloud would Delrin plastic work? it is available from Mcmaster Carr.

Delrin is the best and perhaps only choice unless you were going to try to use brass, which I think is not a bad option.

 

[cody c]

Delrin is the best and perhaps only choice unless you were going to try to use brass, which I think is not a bad option.

I see they have it at McMaster, though I cannot purchase directly (they only sell to larger buisnesses in Canada)

Also, 1/2" 12"x12" blocks are over $100 before shipping.

But I guess you could build a few sliders with a block that size.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#astm-d6100-delrin-(made-with-acetal-resin)/=f9w1av

 

[cody c]

I think I would build some steel on the sides to distribute the weight on the plastic better, instead of just at the bolt.

I dont know much about the plastics involved, so I would be concerned about the weight wearing or cracking the plastics at the bolt hole.

I made another CAD image, with a plate/saddle from the bolt to the back side of the plastic. The plastic is symetrical, so as you might be able to flip it around for wear.

The black stuff would be the plastic...