LCA cam movement (and body mount replacement)

[OregonLC]

Any chance your noise is from steering rack bushings or tie rod ends? I have a slight mechanical clunk that can be felt, not heard and only occurs off pavement. I had assumed it was something in the front end as I can feel it in the wheel, but tired body mounts are a good idea to check as well. Though it would be hard not to consider a body lift if one were to go to the trouble of replacing.

 

[ga12r1]

Not that this is related to your noise clunk problem but I will say I was getting a ton of movement/deflection with stock rubber bushings and it was causing my tires to hit the body mount under certain conditions. I replaced the bushings with superpro poly for that reason and now I have no clearance issues at all. So yeah, stock rubber bushings can move a lot.

 

[linuxgod]

Any chance your noise is from steering rack bushings or tie rod ends? I have a slight mechanical clunk that can be felt, not heard and only occurs off pavement. I had assumed it was something in the front end as I can feel it in the wheel, but tired body mounts are a good idea to check as well. Though it would be hard not to consider a body lift if one were to go to the trouble of replacing.

Pretty sure it's not at this point. I had an occasional popping noise before. Steering rack was replaced (which includes tie rods) because the power steering was leaking. The noise seemed to go away for maybe a month or two, but then came back. I used to mainly hear it up front, but recently it seems to come from the back sometimes, or occasionally what sounds like the side.

I thought the rear noise was my bumper moving a bit, especially since I twisted it in Moab, but the noise is similar (but a bit more muted) to what I hear up front with the windows open, hence I'm again leaning towards bad body mounts - either directly because they're collapsing and the metal sleeve and bolt are making noise, or indirectly because the body has sagged a bit and it making some contact somewhere. But I'm also just sort of guessing at the problem, though if you look at the upper body mount on the driver's side (first photo) you can clearly see it's pancaked, vs the passenger's side (second photo) which has some separation between the rings, though appears to be leaning a bit. The nuts are tight

(BTW if I put the truck on jack stands, the top mount seems to extend and not be collapse. That confuses me because the truck is sitting on jack stands which are on the frame, but aside from that confusion which maybe someone can explain it still points to a lot of movement in that area).

 

[linuxgod]

Not that this is related to your noise clunk problem but I will say I was getting a ton of movement/deflection with stock rubber bushings and it was causing my tires to hit the body mount under certain conditions. I replaced the bushings with superpro poly for that reason and now I have no clearance issues at all. So yeah, stock rubber bushings can move a lot.

Thanks, that's good to know. With the amount of movement I'm shocked more of us don't hit the body mounts, KDSS, or other interference areas which we seem to barely clear when parked...

 

[OregonLC]

I had a 100 with a similar issue where the body mount was allowing the top flange of the slider mount to intermittently contact the floor pan. Not familiar with your build, but do you have any add-ons that could be making contact.

And yes, I'd be looking at replacing that mount. In fact I'm going to go check mine.

 

[linuxgod]

I had a 100 with a similar issue where the body mount was allowing the top flange of the slider mount to intermittently contact the floor pan. Not familiar with your build, but do you have any add-ons that could be making contact.

Haha. Add-ons? Nope, I'm stock.

2013 LC: Gamiviti Expo++ rack, light bar, snorkel, Nitro 4.88s, 3x locked, WK sliders, Falken Wildpeak R/T01 35x11.5r17, Icon Six Speed wheels, OME BP51, Trail Tailor front, Warn VR12S, PIAA LP570s, Rigid fogs, RLC rear, single drawer, diff drop, Asfir skids

Seriously though no obvious signs of contact on anything, which just makes it all the more frustrating. For a short while I was thinking maybe a motor mount was bad, but revving the engine I don't see the telltale "lift off" from the mount that tends to happen on the driver's side.

And yes, I'd be looking at replacing that mount. In fact I'm going to go check mine.

 

[TeCKis300]

Thanks, that's good to know. With the amount of movement I'm shocked more of us don't hit the body mounts, KDSS, or other interference areas which we seem to barely clear when parked...

There's quite a bit of designed in compliance in street cars so I wasn't surprised to see the movement you posted earlier. Compliance is a good thing. To your point, it's why I've been an advocate of BMC as there is more relative movement going on than meets to eye. In an emergency maneuver and high loads, could just very well cause a wheel to lockup.

I think a good thing to attack first is that body mount as it's definitely compromised. Enough that unknown body elements might be touching frame elements, or headlights and grills parts touching down on bull bar parts.

I didn't know you had a diff drop. Is there a chance that could be contacting the skids? The diff mounts also have pretty large bushings that could allow enough play?

 

[NikP]

I sure wished you would have solved this today. I have a similar or maybe the same issue. It's intermittent sometimes triggered with a moving turn and sometimes a slight pop as the front lifts accelerating from a stop. I haven't had time to dive in and investigate although I notice mine is more prevalent after I had my Ironman UCA's replaced after their recall. They did an alignment so I was hoping that was the common thread. My lots are tight and appear torqued to spec.

 

[linuxgod]

There's quite a bit of designed in compliance in street cars so I wasn't surprised to see the movement you posted earlier. Compliance is a good thing. To your point, it's why I've been an advocate of BMC as there is more relative movement going on than meets to eye. In an emergency maneuver and high loads, could just very well cause a wheel to lockup.

I think a good thing to attack first is that body mount as it's definitely compromised. Enough that unknown body elements might be touching frame elements, or headlights and grills parts touching down on bull bar parts.

I didn't know you had a diff drop. Is there a chance that could be contacting the skids? The diff mounts also have pretty large bushings that could allow enough play?

I pulled the front skid a couple weeks back but the noises were still there.

With developing what seems like noises from other areas, the body mounts are smelling more and more suspicious to me. I’m hoping it’s easy enough to swap the front two once I get the parts and get into it. I assume the rearmost ones are going to be under my drawer and fridge platform though

 

[linuxgod]

I sure wished you would have solved this today. I have a similar or maybe the same issue. It's intermittent sometimes triggered with a moving turn and sometimes a slight pop as the front lifts accelerating from a stop. I haven't had time to dive in and investigate although I notice mine is more prevalent after I had my Ironman UCA's replaced after their recall. They did an alignment so I was hoping that was the common thread. My lots are tight and appear torqued to spec.

Definitely worth checking the torque on the cam bolts/nuts. As others have pointed out some shops grossly under-torque these and movement will cause noise. But if you had the noise before the UCA replacement and it was aligned and still persists, it very well may not be this.

Take pics of your front body mounts. I’d be curious if your are collapsed too. If I jack up the front of the vehicle on the frame just behind the second body mount the front one will extend, which is how I am positive it’s collapsed.

I can sometimes recreate it around town just by accelerating kind of hard (which pops) and then letting off the gas (but not braking) when going ~25 (so in 2nd gear) at which point it pops again as the load shifts forward. Braking will do it too but the above confirmed in my head it has nothing to do with the brakes.

 

[linuxgod]

Probably a topic for a new thread but labor-wise am I a fool to try and just replace the front upper body mounts? I was assuming i could manage those by just loosening those and maybe the ones in the front floorpan, but if I have to undo all of them to get enough movement I might as well drop $600 on all new ones and do it once.

Also anyone used Energy poly body mounts before? More durable (supposedly) and half the cost is intriguing but if they’re going to make the ride suck or be really noisy I’d rather go OEM. (And are there any other options for the 200?)

 

[TeCKis300]

I assume the rearmost ones are going to be under my drawer and fridge platform though

Maybe. It's actually possible to replace the rearmost body mounts without accessing the interior at all. With a minor caveat that the body interior access cap will be popped off.

What I mean is that you can undo the body mount bolt from below. Push the bolt up (popping off the cap), and remove / replace the upper body mount. Then the bolt will fall down down through the mounts. So everything done from below. But again, you'll need to get access behind the interior panels to pop that access cap back in which probably is not hugely important.

 

[bloc]

A concern would be that if one is collapsed that would increase the strain on other mounts as the body tilted that direction. Possibly making the new mount fail more quickly.

I can look it up but for the sake of discussion what’s the damage for a full set?

Also for the internal covers it depends on how the steel is stamped but sometimes those caps prevent dust ingress into the cabin. Not a concern up front though.

 

[linuxgod]

A concern would be that if one is collapsed that would increase the strain on other mounts as the body tilted that direction. Possibly making the new mount fail more quickly.

I can look it up but for the sake of discussion what’s the damage for a full set?

Also for the internal covers it depends on how the steel is stamped but sometimes those caps prevent dust ingress into the cabin. Not a concern up front though.

Yeah I’ve had that thought. I’m actually wondering if that why other mounts have started making noise… once the body starts moving a bit they all end up stressed? At this point I’ve only ordered the front two upper mounts because a couple weeks ago I wasn’t sure this was the issue and I wasn’t going to drop the $ on replacing everything, but I’ve become more obsessed with the idea this is my problem. There’s also a chance I’m insane, but given the dealer, an Indy mechanic, and a pro alignment and suspension shop have looked over and tightened everything *and* I’m now regularly getting the same noises from the rear I can’t come up with any other explanation.

Partsouq cost is about $60 per mount set with new bolts and sleeves IIRC, so around $500. I assume the dealer will be quite a bit more. Hoping for another Toyota sale. If I can do this in a few hours I’ll do it myself, but if it’s going to be a PITFA to do in my garage by myself then I’ll find a shop to do this as it’s annoying AF

Part of my internal dilemma is if I should try the Energy poly bushings. I know they’ll be stiffer, but how much? How much noisier? My factory ones seem to have lasted only 10 years, so if there’s something more durable I’d consider it if it’s not a huge ride/noise compromise.

My gut says it’s towing which is pretty hard on these, as the truck really doesn’t see that much off road use (unless you consider city potholes). Of the 12-13k/year I average, probably 4-5k in towing, 5k is city driving, and <500 miles is any sort of trail. I have a coworker with an ‘08 diesel pickup with similar mileage who tows a race car trailer that’s 10k+ and his mounts have basically crumbled.

 

[bloc]

This has me wondering about my body mounts and a strange secondary oscillation from my rear axle despite the new springs and struts. And it was there with my kings. All of my control arm bushings are original so I can't rule them out but this seems to be a different frequency than those would allow, at least in my head.

Just to say I'm really curious what your results will be if you go this route.

As for Poly... my impression of that industry is they make them for everything, even if it isn't a good application for it.

 

[linuxgod]

As for Poly... my impression of that industry is they make them for everything, even if it isn't a good application for it.

Yeah, I guess my question for the masses is whether this might be a good use case? I’ve owned my truck since 2016, and if this is the reason for my noise they were failing in 2023z I’d trade off a bit stiffer ride if it means the new bushings aren’t shot in 7 years, but I wouldn’t make that trade if it’s going to feel every bump or squeak and chirp over every pothole…

 

[TeCKis300]

I've been noodling on why your front mounts are collapsed too. Doing a body lift recently, I was considering replacing all the mounts. My set at 168k looked pretty good, even after tons of washboards off-road and lots of towing. I didn't bother changing them though now I wished perhaps I had...while I was in there?

I'm not sure it's towing as the loads are relatively isolated to the chassis frame. But it does create additional NVH that the isolators have to manage. I'm wondering if it's from the bull bar causing additional oscillations and flex at the front of the frame? Or could be additional installed loads on the cab? Hard to say but it's something to think about.

I would NOT do polyeurathane bushings. There's more to the factory bushings and they are essentially tuned dampers. Natural rubber is expensive and they are a superior solution. They also have bonded washers and sleeves which the aftermarket always cheats on. They'll likely not be specifically tuned for this application and create harsh NVH, and the likeliness of squeaks long term is high.

 

[linuxgod]

I've been noodling on why your front mounts are collapsed too. Doing a body lift recently, I was considering replacing all the mounts. My set at 168k looked pretty good so I didn't bother changing them though now I wished perhaps I had...while I was in there?

I'm not sure it's towing as the loads are relatively isolated to the chassis frame. But it does create additional NVH that the isolators have to manage. I'm wondering if it's from the bull bar causing additional oscillations and flex at the front of the frame? Or could be additional installed loads on the cab? Hard to say but it's something to think about.

I would NOT do polyeurathane bushings. There's more to the factory bushings and they are essentially tuned dampers. Natural rubber is expensive and they are a superior solution. They also have bonded washers and sleeves which the aftermarket always cheats on. They'll likely not be specifically tuned for this application and create harsh NVH, and the likeliness of squeaks long term is high.

Thanks for the notes on poly vs rubber. Unless someone says “I’ve done it and they’re great” I probably will go OEM… and if it happens again in ~7 years then I’m going poly and just dealing with it.

It might not be from towing, it just seems odd. It could be from steel bumpers though so many others have heavier bull bars that I would expect to hear others with the same issues. Also the bumpers mount to the frame, just like the trailer hitch, so I wouldn’t expect them to have any more impact on the body than the trailer. Maybe the roof rack and drawers add body weight but again so many people have those types of mods without published issues

It could very well just be city driving too. Tons of potholes, speed bumps, stop signs and traffic lights everywhere, all of which cause constant shifting of body weight at different rates than the frame.

Or it could just be bad luck. One bad mount, which ignored caused more flex than expected at the rear since the front isn’t dampening, and then they all end up wearing faster in succession.

 

[linuxgod]

[Updated thread title because the topic has shifted…]

 

[Boston Mangler]

I would NOT do polyeurathane bushings. There's more to the factory bushings and they are essentially tuned dampers. Natural rubber is expensive and they are a superior solution. They also have bonded washers and sleeves which the aftermarket always cheats on. They'll likely not be specifically tuned for this application and create harsh NVH, and the likeliness of squeaks long term is high.

I second everything he said

Poly bushings have their place, body mounts definitely aint one of them