LC200 BP-51 / King 2.5 Suspension upgrade (1 Viewer)

[arco9]

How would you describe the on-road and off-road improvements that come from a BP-51 or King 2.5 suspension upgrade on an all-stock 2014 LC200?

Also, are there any negatives you have noticed after upgrading the LC200 OEM suspension?

My use is 85% in town with the remainder being a mix of windy two-lane highway, dirt washboard, and rough logging type roads. I don't plan to rock crawl, sand dune, desert race, or jump the vehicle. I don't plan to add any weight to the vehicle with bumpers, armor, winches, etc. Also, I don't want the vehicle lifted (it barely fits in my garage as is).

Thanks very much for any feedback.

 

[empty80]

The performance over stock will be exceptional, extra weight or not. You’ll be able to control your ride comfort and control in all conditions. You may be be at a disadvantage with your height constraints. I think with minimal/no preload on Kings front coilovers, you still might end up with a little more height. The rear height is set by the springs, so that’s just a matter or getting the right springs.

If there is any disadvantage, it may be service life. I purchased with the understanding I would be replacing the mounting bearings and valves at some point during ownership. My local shop can rebuild Kings on their bench, so that was a major influencing factor in my decision.

 

[hickuptruck]

Well, are you ok with getting your shocks rebuilt every 30k-50k miles? That means downtime and install re-install labour if you can't do the labour yourself

 

[Moby]

Is this first hand experience with a 30-50k rebuild interval for Kings? I have Radflos with 66k miles on them and they are still going strong with just maintaining charge pressure. I can do full rebuilds myself so it isn't a big deal, I'm mostly just curious if I'm going to potentially cut my service life in half if I go from Radflo to King on my inbound 200.

OP - FWIW my uses are very close to yours only less city, more highway and a very mild lift and aluminum skids (same use for my GX and its soon to be replacement 200). For King/Fox/Radflo the key is finding a vendor that will work with you on getting the valving and spring rate right for exactly your use. Which means someone that has done more than one or two 200s. I worked with a 4Runner/GX only shop on my current Radflos and they were very close first try. I did revalve the fronts once to get the last 5-10% to perfect.

But once you experience a really dialed suspension of this type it will spoil you for anything else. I made the mistake of putting Bilstein PSS9s with external compression adjusters on a project Audi and swore that I'll never buy another "high performance" suspension that I can't valve myself again.

The downsides are getting the tuning right, because it can be tuned worse then stock if done wrong, and, as mentioned above, potentially lifespan between rebuilds (although they can be rebuilt, unlike off the shelf units).

I have no experience with BP-51s.

 

[arco9]

Thank you for the feedback and advice.

As far as tuning the suspension, I think my priorities would be:
1. First, match the comfort of the OEM suspension
2. Second, get as much improved handling out of the suspension as possible given the comfort requirement of priority 1

With a "high performance" suspension, is it reasonable that I could get equal to the comfort of the OEM suspension and still experience substantially improved handling? Or is the improvement only in the handling at the expense of comfort? Can I get both?

Also, I understood that the King 2.5 rebuild interval was 80-100k miles. Anyone have enough miles on their King suspension to be able to comment further on this?

 

[empty80]

With a "high performance" suspension, is it reasonable that I could get equal to the comfort of the OEM suspension and still experience substantially improved handling? Or is the improvement only in the handling at the expense of comfort? Can I get both?

This is largely subjective on how you perceive the factory comfort. I found the factory comfort as too plush, especially at highway speeds and windy roads.

I have Kings, and I run my compression three clicks off of the firmest setting in the rear and 5 off in the front with my reservoir pressures set at 200psi. I have significantly reduced body roll, and the handling is exceptional. If I'm a trail and I'm concerned about obstacle departure, I max the rear out. If I'm cruising down dirt or gravel roads and expect washboards, I soften the compression up. I feel more of the road, but I also run LT rated tires. Plush or firm, I'm always going to feel more of the road.

I don't believe there to be a trade-off between your first and second priorities, especially with the systems you are looking at. You can have your cake and eat it too. It is an investment, and you may have to work with a shop capable of tuning to your needs. I can say the Kings have a lot of adjustability from turning the dial, and if that isn't enough, reservoir pressures can be manipulated to further the range. It does take patience and a willingness to play with the adjustments to find that balance.

 

[liv2bike]

Just considering your height constraints, you might have a hard time finding what you want. Unless you remove your roof rack. Will you be mounting a taller tire in addition to suspension...say a 285/65/18 vs. the stock 285/60/18? Something else to factor into the equation.

You might just want to consider leaving your OEM coils as is and installing Bilstein 4600's. A lot less money. Ride/handling will be improved. The Bilsteins will tighten things up and reduce roll and dive.

Are you in Arco? I ask b/c of your @arco9 handle. I'm in Idaho Falls. I work at the INL.

And if you need help or additional advice...talk to Kenny at CBI in town. He's a good guy. They do good work.

Guy

 

[bloc]

For what it’s worth I spoke with someone at king a couple days ago and they said if you want to maintain stock height with 2.5s they can put 500# springs on them.

 

[arco9]

I don't believe there to be a trade-off between your first and second priorities, especially with the systems you are looking at. You can have your cake and eat it too....It does take patience and a willingness to play with the adjustments to find that balance.

I hoped a suspension like King could give pretty close to factory comfort around town and improved handling in performance scenarios. It sounds like this is possible with some tuning. Thank you for your feedback.

 

[arco9]

Will you be mounting a taller tire in addition to suspension?

I have original wheels on the vehicle with Continental TerrainContact tires, 275-65-18, P-rated. I like the light weight feel of the tire, so I'll keep them, even after the suspension upgrade.

Are you in Arco? I ask b/c of your @arco9 handle. I'm in Idaho Falls. I work at the INL.

I don't live in Arco, but I visited that area when I was a kid. I like driving in the mountains around there now that I am back in Idaho (in the Boise area). That's cool you live in Idaho Falls - beautiful area. Thanks for your feedback.

 

[arco9]

For what it’s worth I spoke with someone at king a couple days ago and they said if you want to maintain stock height with 2.5s they can put 500# springs on them.

Great to know - thank you

 

[bloc]

Great to know - thank you

When I have time I want to figure out what the stock spring rate is for our trucks. I’m very interested in stock height or the same as the 10mm spacers, but if that requires a softer than stock spring it seems counterproductive

 

[Fisher23]

I have the BP-51. They did raise it about 2.5" I find it has the same nice soft ride but the road handling in the city and on dirt roads is now incredibly better. The slop is gone, and it glides over the wash board and the unexpected pot holes.

Fits in my stock high garage with the ARB roof flat rack. I run stock size Toyo R/T's.

I have not driven a LC with KINGS, but have in the jeeps with kings it runs stiffer than the OME suspension and I think Kings are better for more hard core off road than the BP-51's.

Both are excellent, I think the kings run a few dollars more.

 

[arco9]

Thanks for all the excellent feedback.

What do you think are the deciding factors choosing between BP-51 vs King 2.5 for an LC200? What made you choose one versus the other?

I know the spec sheet matters less than driver experience, but the main technical differences I see are:
- BP-51s have rebound adjustment while the Kings don't (I'm not sure how much this matters)
- King 2.5s have a larger piston than the BP-51s (which could translate to better heat dissipation and a longer service life)

It's a bit tricky to decide since, in the end, it comes down to feel/preference and I never have ridden in a vehicle with either.

 

[Fisher23]

I drive mostly street and hwy. I do drive county dirt roads 3 or 4 times a week, and usually some forest logging road/trail once month.
Mountain trails 3 or 4 times a year.

My plan is to stay with near the stock tire size, maybe go to 33.x". I use this as an overlander and not really for rock crawling.

With that and the proven testing of the BP-51 on the LC200's I went with the the ARB BP-51's. If I was going to go larger tires and more serious off road I think the Kings would be a better selection.

This other thread on here the dealer used the BP-51 and only raised the front 1.5" and the rear zero lift. So more of just a mild leveling kit.

How low can you go on a BP-51 suspension?

Lift comparison between an OME BP-51 suspension set as low as you can go (1.5”) in front and no-lift in the rear (2721 rear springs) on Terragrappler G2 285/65/18 (32.59" diameter) vs. Stock suspension with a 1/4" OEM spacer on a 2020 Heritage with Michelin LTX AT2 275/65/18 (32" diameter)...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Moby]

A major misconception around Fox/King/Radflo is that they ride one way or another. They are stiffer or softer. This isn't how it works. These type of shocks are designed as a completely tunable solution to get the exact characteristics that you want across the entire range of low/medium/high shaft speeds. If they are stiffer than you want its the tuning and you can change this. The stiffness (or softness) is not something inherent in the design of the shock.

I went through this when I bought my first tunable shocks (Bilstein 7100s). They rode so bad I put them on the shelf for a year in frustration. Then I invested in a nitrogen tank and regulator and started learning how to tune. I probably changed the front valving 7 or 8 times before I got my FJ-62 where I wanted it. Maybe 4-5 on the rear. This was all me learning how valving works by making lots of mistakes, why you shouldn't apply coil spring valving techniques to leaf springs, etc. I'm certainly not a tuning expert, but I have a good amount of trial and error experience that has eventually landed excellent results on both my FJ-62 and my GX 460.

With the BP-51 you get a sophisticated fixed internal bypass with external compression and rebound adjustment, but without the ability to tear down the shock and directly change the core valving or bypass valving there are always going to be limits (if you look at a King external bypass you'll see that each bypass zone has an external adjuster). So what you're hoping is that the base tuning of the BP-51 plus the adjust range that they provide will allow you to meet your needs. For the majority of people that are within the bell curve of use of these trucks BP-51s will probably be a significant upgrade over stock. I'm no longer willing to spend money and hope, but I'm probably in the minority. I'm also able and willing to do the tuning myself.

Outside of tuning there maybe be issues of simplicity (maybe you don't want to deal with the complexity of tuning), longevity (excluding rebuilds) and possibly intended use, if that intended use includes driving as fast as possible off road.

HTH

 

[Fisher23]

ICON is also a good shock.

 

[bloc]

I'm very interested in which system will allow for the least amount of lift. BP-51 vs King 2.5, bottomed out, stock weight, how much lift am I looking at?

I want to stay with stock UCAs and a relatively low stance, but want the better damping and fade resistance of either of these systems. But to keep alignment in spec, lift needs to stay low. Plus, having flopped a rig before makes you wary of raised CoG.

 

[Squirrel]

I’m interested in a stock upgrade as well but I don’t know what I don’t know.

A major misconception around Fox/King/Radflo is that they ride one way or another. They are stiffer or softer. This isn't how it works. These type of shocks are designed as a completely tunable solution to get the exact characteristics that you want across the entire range of low/medium/high shaft speeds. If they are stiffer than you want its the tuning and you can change this. The stiffness (or softness) is not something inherent in the design of the shock.

I went through this when I bought my first tunable shocks (Bilstein 7100s). They rode so bad I put them on the shelf for a year in frustration. Then I invested in a nitrogen tank and regulator and started learning how to tune. I probably changed the front valving 7 or 8 times before I got my FJ-62 where I wanted it. Maybe 4-5 on the rear. This was all me learning how valving works by making lots of mistakes, why you shouldn't apply coil spring valving techniques to leaf springs, etc. I'm certainly not a tuning expert, but I have a good amount of trial and error experience that has eventually landed excellent results on both my FJ-62 and my GX 460.

With the BP-51 you get a sophisticated fixed internal bypass with external compression and rebound adjustment, but without the ability to tear down the shock and directly change the core valving or bypass valving there are always going to be limits (if you look at a King external bypass you'll see that each bypass zone has an external adjuster). So what you're hoping is that the base tuning of the BP-51 plus the adjust range that they provide will allow you to meet your needs. For the majority of people that are within the bell curve of use of these trucks BP-51s will probably be a significant upgrade over stock. I'm no longer willing to spend money and hope, but I'm probably in the minority. I'm also able and willing to do the tuning myself.

Outside of tuning there maybe be issues of simplicity (maybe you don't want to deal with the complexity of tuning), longevity (excluding rebuilds) and possibly intended use, if that intended use includes driving as fast as possible off road.

HTH

This is part of my concern. I don’t understand the difference between products and how those differences translate to ride quality. If anyone knows someone in the Dallas area I would love a reference.

 

[empty80]

A major misconception around Fox/King/Radflo is that they ride one way or another. They are stiffer or softer. This isn't how it works. These type of shocks are designed as a completely tunable solution to get the exact characteristics that you want across the entire range of low/medium/high shaft speeds. If they are stiffer than you want its the tuning and you can change this. The stiffness (or softness) is not something inherent in the design of the shock.
HTH

@Moby is absolutely correct, and this is why I encourage everyone considering these systems to work with a local shop. These are not the kind of systems you find the best deal on the internet, and find any old shop to install. You’re not gonna get the most out of these systems, unless you buy the equipment and learn how to do it yourself. Also, if you do pull the trigger, be patient and pay attention to the behaviors of your suspension, positive and negative. Take notes, and be prepared to discuss, in depth, with the shop that does the tuning. It’s not enough to say, “The ride is rough.” What conditions make the ride rough? Define what rough feels like. That will help the tuners get an idea of what needs adjusted.

I hated the Kings on my 200-series after the work was done. At one point, I was ready to make the drive up to Slee to switch to BP-51, but I kept going back to the shop and providing feedback. I keep working with the shop, and the system keeps getting better.

I’ve discussed suspension performance at length with Tactical Application Vehicles while trying to get my system right for my use case. Ride height is dictated by springs, not shocks. Springs CAN inappropriately act as a shock if you are underweight for your springs. It is important to determine if your manufacture of choice has a front spring that is capable of a factory front height.