landtank caster plates install walk through noob help? (1 Viewer)

[landtank]

He’s not installing my plates, he’s installing another vendor’s plates. Doing what he describes when installing my plates will make absolutely no difference in the end result.

you’re making this out to be more of a project than it is.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

He’s not installing my plates, he’s installing another vendor’s plates. Doing what he describes when installing my plates will make absolutely no difference in the end result.

you’re making this out to be more of a project than it is.

i always find that making it out to be more of a project than it is is only true if you’ve done it before.

either way i was going to go LT plates.

but other than making sure i understand the install and have the tools and supplies on hand i guess the first question would be which plates to install on a 3” lift.

i should measure the actual installed height and pick closest one? or go “over” if you are over 2.5” or what?

 

[Rusty Marlin]

Go a little over, won't hurt anything.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Go a little over, won't hurt anything.

thanks man. i always find it a bit of minefield asking technical questions and everyone seems to have a different tolerance for them depending on where you post.

some people JFDI. some people like to understand the concepts. to each his own i guess.

do you have a hazard of a guess as to whether the dobinson 5 degree plates or the LT 4" plates offer more caster correction? i mean i can ask that in a way that makes sense (i think!) because i researched the forum but i think i would have to chunk through it all again to know for sure.

ALSO, can you walk into a shop and give them the 4" LT and the 5 degree dobinsons and ask which is the best one based upon their numbers?

AND is there a reason you could not adjust one or the other to customize the actual caster adjustment needed? i mean the delta radius arms seem to be customized pretty finely and it seems (?) like caster correction plates you would be able to do the same if you drew a couple of lines and change the location of a notch or a bolt hole?

sorry lots of random questions but it is how i learn...

 

[landtank]

My 2.5” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a stock driveshaft with lifts between 2-3”. My 4” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a DC shaft between 3.5-4.5” of lift.
This is what I offer and if other vendors offer something different you will need to contact them with any questions.

 

[Lumpskie]

i always find that making it out to be more of a project than it is is only true if you’ve done it before.

either way i was going to go LT plates.

but other than making sure i understand the install and have the tools and supplies on hand i guess the first question would be which plates to install on a 3” lift.

i should measure the actual installed height and pick closest one? or go “over” if you are over 2.5” or what?

Like @landtank said, his 2.5 plates are made for a 3" lift without requiring a double cardan driveshaft in the front. I run a 3" Slinky setup with his 2.5 plates on a stock front driveshaft. My rig drives well, all the way up to 90 mph. If you are comparing an Landtank plate to other brands, search the forum. There is a lot of information on how certain designs "pivot" the axle versus the Landtank plate which "rotates" it. (only for 4" model, I believe) The end result is that the Landtank plates do not create drag link clearance issues that other plates may introduce. That is only a big deal for higher amounts of correction, but I figure it was worth mentioning. Again, I would suggest the 2.5 plate if you are going with a 3" lift.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

My 2.5” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a stock driveshaft with lifts between 2-3”. My 4” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a DC shaft between 3.5-4.5” of lift.
This is what I offer and if other vendors offer something different you will need to contact them with any questions.

thanks man. appreciate that. so if you buy a 3” lift how do you choose between the two again? i guess that is not getting through my thick skull. i mean it is thick for a reason but still.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Like @landtank said, his 2.5 plates are made for a 3" lift without requiring a double cardan driveshaft in the front. I run a 3" Slinky setup with his 2.5 plates on a stock front driveshaft. My rig drives well, all the way up to 90 mph. If you are comparing an Landtank plate to other brands, search the forum. There is a lot of information on how certain designs "pivot" the axle versus the Landtank plate which "rotates" it. (only for 4" model, I believe) The end result is that the Landtank plates do not create drag link clearance issues that other plates may introduce. That is only a big deal for higher amounts of correction, but I figure it was worth mentioning. Again, I would suggest the 2.5 plate if you are going with a 3" lift.

hey man. THANKS for this input.
i am usually really good at geometry and i sort of read all the the threads so i am not sure why i don’t get this pivot versus rotate thing. seems like i would be able to draw it up or explain it but are you saying this aspect only applies to the 4” plates and not the 2.5” plates? or does this improvement also apply to the 2.5” plates?
also did you measure the amount of lift you got over stock to decide to put in 2.5” plates or how did you decide for these as compared to 4” LT plates?
lastly, if you did the 2.5” plates, do you remember install? i’m not sure i ever was sure what install was supposed to be.
you “hang” the radius arm? then you dowel the plates in the rear bolt hole with a bolt? then you trace the front bolt hole from the lower edge of the radius arm and rotate it up as you trace in a circular arc?
then you cut this notch out? then put the front bolt in and - well there is some kind of dimple to fit into the or original bolt hole and you just boot it up? drop the vehicle to the ground to settle the bushings? then weld it up?

what was the reason you start on the PS (or DS or whatever again)? or was there a reason to start on one side or the other?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Like @landtank said, his 2.5 plates are made for a 3" lift without requiring a double cardan driveshaft in the front. I run a 3" Slinky setup with his 2.5 plates on a stock front driveshaft. My rig drives well, all the way up to 90 mph. If you are comparing an Landtank plate to other brands, search the forum. There is a lot of information on how certain designs "pivot" the axle versus the Landtank plate which "rotates" it. (only for 4" model, I believe) The end result is that the Landtank plates do not create drag link clearance issues that other plates may introduce. That is only a big deal for higher amounts of correction, but I figure it was worth mentioning. Again, I would suggest the 2.5 plate if you are going with a 3" lift.

dobinson i think is telling me to use the OEM bushings (i already have the full set of six) and their 5 degree caster plates with their 3” lift and to not even bother with the bushings.
originally i was going to go with LT 2.5 then i thought i was under correcting with the 2.5.
i mean at one point this week i was just going to throw in the towel and go with the damn dobinson caster correction bushings and burn a pair of OEM bushings and sell them.
sorry for the 20 questions but i am not sure how to make the right decision here without asking and install usually goes a lot smoother in 100 degree heat if i have all the tools and an idea of what i am doing in my head before i get out there!

BTW, also a big thanks for reminding me why i am taking so much time trying to do this once and do it right. i almost forgot about why i am trying to be very deliberate about this caster correction...

 

[jonheld]

I am going to offer my opinion on this. It is MY PERSONAL TAKE on caster correction based on daily driving 2 different lifted 80 Series for the last 29 years, going through multiple suspension setups on both vehicles, along with my inability to weld and lack of shops that I can trust in my area of the US.

1. Do not waste time/effort/money with caster correction bushings. They do not last, they do not flex well, and the ride is harsh. In fact, IMO poly bushings of any flavor should be avoided anywhere on the vehicle. BTDT too many times.

2. More than stock caster correction will add some heaviness to the steering and force return to center. IMO that is a FAR better driving feeling than having less caster correction.

3. On the solid front axle 80 Series, it is the combination of caster and toe-in that makes the vehicle drive well. If you over correct caster and feel that the steering is too heavy, you can slightly reduce the amount of toe-in to almost zero. This will lighten the steering, decrease tire wear, and (very slightly) increase fuel economy. The opposite is also true, but there is a limit to adding toe-in to compensate for less than spec caster.

Because I didn't want to cut into my front axle mounts and do not weld, I simply went with a 100% bolt on solution from Delta. Expensive? You betcha. But she's an absolute pleasure to drive.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I am going to offer my opinion on this. It is MY PERSONAL TAKE on caster correction based on daily driving 2 different lifted 80 Series for the last 29 years, going through multiple suspension setups on both vehicles, along with my inability to weld and lack of shops that I can trust in my area of the US.

1. Do not waste time/effort/money with caster correction bushings. They do not last, they do not flex well, and the ride is harsh. In fact, IMO poly bushings of any flavor should be avoided anywhere on the vehicle. BTDT too many times.

2. More than stock caster correction will add some heaviness to the steering and force return to center. IMO that is a FAR better driving feeling than having less caster correction.

3. On the solid front axle 80 Series, it is the combination of caster and toe-in that makes the vehicle drive well. If you over correct caster and feel that the steering is too heavy, you can slightly reduce the amount of toe-in to almost zero. This will lighten the steering, decrease tire wear, and (very slightly) increase fuel economy. The opposite is also true, but there is a limit to adding toe-in to compensate for less than spec caster.

Because I didn't want to cut into my front axle mounts and do not weld, I simply went with a 100% bolt on solution from Delta. Expensive? You betcha. But she's an absolute pleasure to drive.

yeah. so this is sort of a half “you’re awesome thanks” and half “jesus man” reply here.

so you went with dave’s radius arms and a (was it a sway bar?) bracket setup after forking out for a lift?

and presumably if someone went that direction /after/ doing caster plates - well i guess they would be out the money for the radius arms and the bracket and some wrench time and then they would be up in there cutting off plates and patching holes and or knocked out tabs?

 

[jonheld]

yeah. so this is sort of a half “you’re awesome thanks” and half “jesus man” reply here.

so you went with dave’s radius arms and a (was it a sway bar?) bracket setup after forking out for a lift?

and presumably if someone went that direction /after/ doing caster plates - well i guess they would be out the money for the radius arms and the bracket and some wrench time and then they would be up in there cutting off plates and patching holes and or knocked out tabs?

Not exactly sure what you're asking.
I've been running with a 4" lift since 2005. My current "lift kit" consists of IronMan 4" springs and shocks. That's it.
The thing to keep in mind is that this is over years of ownership. I never bought into the "all at once" or "let's throw the college fund at it" mentality.
It is a vehicle and I like to take a more controlled approach.

For the front swaybar, I added UHMW spacers I made to clear the front driveshaft at full droop.
For the rear panhard I added the smaller Delta bracket to raise the axle side of the panhard mount. Truth be told, I noticed almost no difference in the way the rear tracks, but I'd like to think it made a difference.
Rear swaybar has been gone for many years now.
Over the years, I bent the crap out of the rear lower links and went through 2 sets of stock, 1 set of MetalTech, and now have the solid Wits End/LandTank lowers for the 4" lift.
I am a very strong believer in having non-adjustable pieces of steel that keep the axles under the truck. The MetalTech arms gave a harsh ride from the poly bushings that they use (went through 2 sets in 2 years), and the fact that they were adjustable and others have had failures really made me uncomfortable.
Again, MY OPINION.

For front caster correction, I have had the OME yellows (2 sets) and the Slee blues (2 sets). I will never go back to that. The ride was harsh and jarring and I was constantly messing with tire pressures to make it tolerable. Nothing beats OEM rubber.

I went with the front arms because it was what I wanted. I like the 100% non invasive approach to things, along with the easy and complete removal and return to stock if that should become necessary in the future.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

My 2.5” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a stock driveshaft with lifts between 2-3”. My 4” caster plates are intended to not vibrate with a DC shaft between 3.5-4.5” of lift.
This is what I offer and if other vendors offer something different you will need to contact them with any questions.

i put “noob” in the title so i guess i can ask this.

what is implied about there not being a caster adjustment plate for 3” - 3.5” of lift? and what do you do if you are at 3” / 3.5”? maybe i read about this but if i did it never got through my thick skull so i could remember it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Not exactly sure what you're asking.
I've been running with a 4" lift since 2005. My current "lift kit" consists of IronMan 4" springs and shocks. That's it.
The thing to keep in mind is that this is over years of ownership. I never bought into the "all at once" or "let's throw the college fund at it" mentality.
It is a vehicle and I like to take a more controlled approach.

For the front swaybar, I added UHMW spacers I made to clear the front driveshaft at full droop.
For the rear panhard I added the smaller Delta bracket to raise the axle side of the panhard mount. Truth be told, I noticed almost no difference in the way the rear tracks, but I'd like to think it made a difference.
Rear swaybar has been gone for many years now.
Over the years, I bent the crap out of the rear lower links and went through 2 sets of stock, 1 set of MetalTech, and now have the solid Wits End/LandTank lowers for the 4" lift.
I am a very strong believer in having non-adjustable pieces of steel that keep the axles under the truck. The MetalTech arms gave a harsh ride from the poly bushings that they use (went through 2 sets in 2 years), and the fact that they were adjustable and others have had failures really made me uncomfortable.
Again, MY OPINION.

For front caster correction, I have had the OME yellows (2 sets) and the Slee blues (2 sets). I will never go back to that. The ride was harsh and jarring and I was constantly messing with tire pressures to make it tolerable. Nothing beats OEM rubber.

I went with the front arms because it was what I wanted. I like the 100% non invasive approach to things, along with the easy and complete removal and return to stock if that should become necessary in the future.

hey JH. thank you for the excellent intel here as usual. what i meant in my reply i think was just a big thank you for the help. and then also an “oh man, more money? i thought i was done” comment.
ONE thing i realize i did not understand fully is that i can do the lift and do the caster correction later. the other thing i didn’t really understand (despite chunking through a lot of the threads here) is i really should do a measurement and then figure out what amount of caster correction i need.
anyway, i will try to be brief. dave’s radius arms look great. the thread on the development of these is great.
your feeling is that you would look at these arms once you have fully finished your build and determined - well at least determined no front or rear bumper and no swing out for the spare etcetera? meaning fully build it?
on the other intel you are nice enough to drop here - i have to admit to thrashing through the FSM to try to make sure i have the parts and their terms straight. meaning after i write a term i have to go back to the fsm to make sure i know where the damn thing is or what the fsm is calling it. also right now i can’t even get under the thing to look at anything really without jacking it up.
to summarize for 4” lift (and presumably 4” of actual lift) you have the following:
1. no aftermarket bushings?
2. UHMW aftermarket spacers for front sway bar to clear driveshaft housing?
3. smaller (4”?) delta bracket for rear panhard link?
4. removed rear sway bar? i forget the reason for this but if i am not mistaken the torque value on that rear sway bar or something back there was like 180 ft lb in one case?!
5. what is meant by “lower links” please? this is lower control arms? or what were the low pair of short arms in the rear again?
6. what is meant by “front arms” please? i didn’t catch this exactly.
THANKS

one more please? @Lumpskie used the term “drag link” and i’ve got the fsm at home but was there another term for this part please?

 

[landtank]

i put “noob” in the title so i guess i can ask this.

what is implied about there not being a caster adjustment plate for 3” - 3.5” of lift? and what do you do if you are at 3” / 3.5”? maybe i read about this but if i did it never got through my thick skull so i could remember it.

For the area of lift between 3-3.5” I avoid completely. Adjusting caster properly for lifts in that range can produce uncontrollable vibrations. I want no part of that situation.

 

[Lumpskie]

hey JH. thank you for the excellent intel here as usual. what i meant in my reply i think was just a big thank you for the help. and then also an “oh man, more money? i thought i was done” comment.
ONE thing i realize i did not understand fully is that i can do the lift and do the caster correction later. the other thing i didn’t really understand (despite chunking through a lot of the threads here) is i really should do a measurement and then figure out what amount of caster correction i need.
anyway, i will try to be brief. dave’s radius arms look great. the thread on the development of these is great.
your feeling is that you would look at these arms once you have fully finished your build and determined - well at least determined no front or rear bumper and no swing out for the spare etcetera? meaning fully build it?
on the other intel you are nice enough to drop here - i have to admit to thrashing through the FSM to try to make sure i have the parts and their terms straight. meaning after i write a term i have to go back to the fsm to make sure i know where the damn thing is or what the fsm is calling it. also right now i can’t even get under the thing to look at anything really without jacking it up.
to summarize for 4” lift (and presumably 4” of actual lift) you have the following:
1. no aftermarket bushings?
2. UHMW aftermarket spacers for front sway bar to clear driveshaft housing?
3. smaller (4”?) delta bracket for rear panhard link?
4. removed rear sway bar? i forget the reason for this but if i am not mistaken the torque value on that rear sway bar or something back there was like 180 ft lb in one case?!
5. what is meant by “lower links” please? this is lower control arms? or what were the low pair of short arms in the rear again?
6. what is meant by “front arms” please? i didn’t catch this exactly.
THANKS

one more please? @Lumpskie used the term “drag link” and i’ve got the fsm at home but was there another term for this part please?

Drag link connects one front wheel to the other when you steer. Do a quick search and you can read about 4" plates that make that link rub on radius arms while flexing. The LandTank plates use a slightly different approach which mitigates this.

 

[BILT4ME]

Drag link connects one front wheel to the other when you steer. Do a quick search and you can read about 4" plates that make that link rub on radius arms while flexing. The LandTank plates use a slightly different approach which mitigates this.

Just a clarification:
The TIE ROD connects the two front wheels together when you steer.

The DRAG LINK connects the Steering arm on the steering box to the RF knuckle (of LHD units) to initiate steering.

It is the TIE ROD that you are actually referring to.

 

[jonheld]

hey JH. thank you for the excellent intel here as usual. what i meant in my reply i think was just a big thank you for the help. and then also an “oh man, more money? i thought i was done” comment.
ONE thing i realize i did not understand fully is that i can do the lift and do the caster correction later. the other thing i didn’t really understand (despite chunking through a lot of the threads here) is i really should do a measurement and then figure out what amount of caster correction i need.
anyway, i will try to be brief. dave’s radius arms look great. the thread on the development of these is great.
your feeling is that you would look at these arms once you have fully finished your build and determined - well at least determined no front or rear bumper and no swing out for the spare etcetera? meaning fully build it?
on the other intel you are nice enough to drop here - i have to admit to thrashing through the FSM to try to make sure i have the parts and their terms straight. meaning after i write a term i have to go back to the fsm to make sure i know where the damn thing is or what the fsm is calling it. also right now i can’t even get under the thing to look at anything really without jacking it up.
to summarize for 4” lift (and presumably 4” of actual lift) you have the following:
1. no aftermarket bushings?
2. UHMW aftermarket spacers for front sway bar to clear driveshaft housing?
3. smaller (4”?) delta bracket for rear panhard link?
4. removed rear sway bar? i forget the reason for this but if i am not mistaken the torque value on that rear sway bar or something back there was like 180 ft lb in one case?!
5. what is meant by “lower links” please? this is lower control arms? or what were the low pair of short arms in the rear again?
6. what is meant by “front arms” please? i didn’t catch this exactly.
THANKS

one more please? @Lumpskie used the term “drag link” and i’ve got the fsm at home but was there another term for this part please?

I'm going to do my best, so please bear with me.
1. Correct. Most aftermarket bushings are made with polyurethane (poly). The material they use has a higher hardness level than the rubber used in OEM bushings. This in turn transfers more road vibrations to the chassis. Keep in mind that when I first lifted my old 80, there was no other choice for caster correction other than bushings. IMO, any solution that allows you to use OEM bushings will yield a more comfortable ride. I'm old and crusty, so I like my comfort.

2. The UHMW I bought from McMaster along with appropriate length 8mm bolts. A hacksaw and hand drill made quick work of it, using the brackets as a template.

3. If you read through the thread that Woody started regarding the rear panhard lift bracket, Delta makes 2 different sizes. I bought the smaller one because the larger one would limit my upward travel on the left rear. I don't have extended bump stops because I think that's fluff.

4. On both my 80s, the rear sway bar was a short lived item once you're on the rocks. I replaced bushings and mounts constantly and I found that it limited the amount of droop in the rear. In any case, I haven't had one for many years and uncounted mileage. It is not missed.

5. I should have been more specific. Rear lower links. The 2 lower links of the 4 link rear that run from the frame rails to the rear axle. Because of the terrain I prefer to wheel, they are susceptible to rock damage. After trying a number of different solutions, I went with Wits End/LandTank, again with new OEM bushings and hardware.

6. Front arms=front control arms=front leading arms=front lower arms. The 2 arms that locate the front axle where you would install caster correction of some sort.

Drag link=relay rod. Toyota calls it a relay rod. It is the steering rod that runs from the pitman arm off the steering box to the opposite wheel.
A tie rod "ties" the 2 steering knuckles together so both wheels steer.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I'm going to do my best, so please bear with me.
1. Correct. Most aftermarket bushings are made with polyurethane (poly). The material they use has a higher hardness level than the rubber used in OEM bushings. This in turn transfers more road vibrations to the chassis. Keep in mind that when I first lifted my old 80, there was no other choice for caster correction other than bushings. IMO, any solution that allows you to use OEM bushings will yield a more comfortable ride. I'm old and crusty, so I like my comfort.

2. The UHMW I bought from McMaster along with appropriate length 8mm bolts. A hacksaw and hand drill made quick work of it, using the brackets as a template.

3. If you read through the thread that Woody started regarding the rear panhard lift bracket, Delta makes 2 different sizes. I bought the smaller one because the larger one would limit my upward travel on the left rear. I don't have extended bump stops because I think that's fluff.

4. On both my 80s, the rear sway bar was a short lived item once you're on the rocks. I replaced bushings and mounts constantly and I found that it limited the amount of droop in the rear. In any case, I haven't had one for many years and uncounted mileage. It is not missed.

5. I should have been more specific. Rear lower links. The 2 lower links of the 4 link rear that run from the frame rails to the rear axle. Because of the terrain I prefer to wheel, they are susceptible to rock damage. After trying a number of different solutions, I went with Wits End/LandTank, again with new OEM bushings and hardware.

6. Front arms=front control arms=front leading arms=front lower arms. The 2 arms that locate the front axle where you would install caster correction of some sort.

Drag link=relay rod. Toyota calls it a relay rod. It is the steering rod that runs from the pitman arm off the steering box to the opposite wheel.
A tie rod "ties" the 2 steering knuckles together so both wheels steer.

thanks JH. i am sort of applying names to faces as it were so this helps. should have it all sorted here shortly without too many more dumb questions...

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Just a clarification:
The TIE ROD connects the two front wheels together when you steer.

The DRAG LINK connects the Steering arm on the steering box to the RF knuckle (of LHD units) to initiate steering.

It is the TIE ROD that you are actually referring to.

so there is a tie rod up front that bolts into the knuckle arms? is the drag link shown here?