Kaiser Locker

[Manuelsv]

You got a PM!

Send that 3rd to us, I'll give a good deal so I can see it. Or you could bring it to zuk in chandler, Toyota Gear Installs he posts a lot of pics of all his installs.

You got a PM! Thanks!

I really like your install write ups! Lots of pictures explanations, and very professional !

 

[homedad64]

Ian.....Wow.....

It seems we need to go see ZUK.....I have a few more units and the demo sitting around

And Manuel....sorry I missed ya' the other day, Call me if you need anything.

 

[ipgregory]

Hi Kurt,

JP said they left the demo unit behind for you guys. Might want to find a way to put some oil or something in it. That thing makes a racket but the one on the truck doesn't make a sound.

Tried hard to beat it Sunday but it wasn't having any of it. It just kept on running....

Laters

Ian

 

[100 TD]

Not sure I have it correct here, so I'll ask the silly question from the technical specialists here. This may be the same for all or most auto lockers, however I have no experience with auto lockers but thought this one may suit me if it comes out for a 100.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and please explain why. (With regards to this exercise, negate the fact the 100 is a full time 4wd, think of it as a selectable 4wd)

The question/statement for your comments!

Consider having fitted a new tire on one side, and a half or well worn tire on the other. (I use this as an exaggeration, normally there may be only a small rotating difference between tires, but still most likely a difference which will cause the same effect)

With an open diff (or LSD I expect) the drive(load) is shared (by differential action) between both axles.
Therefore driving for the on road 100,000 miles, this is the case.

With this locker installed (possibly others as well) the drive (load) will be taken ENTIRELY by the axle with the larger tire, as the other axle (smaller tire) will always be rotating faster (free wheeling at a greater speed) than the opposite axle. Therefore, for the 100,000 miles of on road driving, one axle is constantly doing all the work, and it's tire doing all the driving?

Is this good or bad in the long run?

When on the dirt, the same situation occurs until the larger tire looses traction slightly and the smaller tire takes up the load, then once they are both not slipping again the larger tire takes full load again, then slips and allows the other axle to be driven.
Exaggerated, it appears to me that in this situation, on dirt, that due to all drive being given to one axle, it will continually slip(albeit slightly) until the other wheel gets drive.

Is this correct?

I understand that under load, both axles can not go slower than the crown wheel, but I see the load being shifted back and forwards continuously due to the different tire size.

Is this good or bad in the long run?

 

[MountainBum]

Not sure I have it correct here, so I'll ask the silly question from the technical specialists here. This may be the same for all or most auto lockers, however I have no experience with auto lockers but thought this one may suit me if it comes out for a 100.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and please explain why. (With regards to this exercise, negate the fact the 100 is a full time 4wd, think of it as a selectable 4wd)

The question/statement for your comments!

Consider having fitted a new tire on one side, and a half or well worn tire on the other. (I use this as an exaggeration, normally there may be only a small rotating difference between tires, but still most likely a difference which will cause the same effect)

With an open diff (or LSD I expect) the drive(load) is shared (by differential action) between both axles.
Therefore driving for the on road 100,000 miles, this is the case.

With this locker installed (possibly others as well) the drive (load) will be taken ENTIRELY by the axle with the larger tire, as the other axle (smaller tire) will always be rotating faster (free wheeling at a greater speed) than the opposite axle. Therefore, for the 100,000 miles of on road driving, one axle is constantly doing all the work, and it's tire doing all the driving?

Is this good or bad in the long run?

When on the dirt, the same situation occurs until the larger tire looses traction slightly and the smaller tire takes up the load, then once they are both not slipping again the larger tire takes full load again, then slips and allows the other axle to be driven.
Exaggerated, it appears to me that in this situation, on dirt, that due to all drive being given to one axle, it will continually slip(albeit slightly) until the other wheel gets drive.

Is this correct?

I understand that under load, both axles can not go slower than the crown wheel, but I see the load being shifted back and forwards continuously due to the different tire size.

Is this good or bad in the long run?

No it won't. The unit is constantly shifting drive side to side because you're turning alot. A small diameter difference in the tires isn't going to change the fact the outside wheel when turning is going faster. So it won't put 100K wear on one side.

 

[Pin_Head]

Having a slightly larger tire on one side might bias that side for ratcheting or free wheeling, but it isn't going to change the operation. I would put the larger tire on the passenger side, as you tend to have to steer slightly left because of the crown of the road. I doubt that you would notice any difference of a slightly larger tire.

 

[100 TD]

No it won't. The unit is constantly shifting drive side to side because you're turning alot. A small diameter difference in the tires isn't going to change the fact the outside wheel when turning is going faster. So it won't put 100K wear on one side.

Sorry, I'm not convinced by this statement due to the following.
I assume 90% of driving is done in a straight line or along a slight curve. You vary your steering wheel extremely little to drive along the road, except when cornering. When you change steering knuckle bearings you find they are worn and indented, they are indented in one position, the straight ahead position, because that is where your wheels are most of the time.
The unit will not be shifting drive side to side in this mode. Yes on turns and cornering .

If one wheel is a new 285/75/16 and the other a worn 285/75/16 (worn down 1/4") the smaller tire will travel 1 & 9/16" shorter , each and every revolution, thereby having to turn constantly faster (free wheel and not be engaged) to make up this amount, so traveling in a relatively straight direction will always see the larger wheel driving.
Since the smaller wheel is always free wheeling, at no time (while traveling in a relatively straight direction) will the smaller wheel come into "driven mode" as when it comes around and drops into the drive slot, the drive is still on the other wheel and the smaller wheel is still traveling faster than the other wheel and there will be no transfer of load. The only way for the smaller wheel to be driven is if the vehicle goes around a corner and the larger wheel slows enough to compensate for the difference in diameters of the tires and the load then transfers to the smaller wheel while cornering. As soon as the vehicle comes out of the corner the load immediately transfers to the larger wheel.
The difference of 1/4" worn tread above equates to the smaller wheel traveling an extra revolution in less than 200 yards or 10 extra revolutions each and every mile.

Having a slightly larger tire on one side might bias that side for ratcheting or free wheeling, but it isn't going to change the operation.

No it won't change it's operation, but it will drive on one wheel only for most of the time.

I doubt that you would notice any difference of a slightly larger tire.

I don't expect to notice any difference, although I believe the drive will be predominately on one wheel.

 

[CruiserJack]

Sorry, I'm not convinced by this statement due to the following.
I assume 90% of driving is done in a straight line or along a slight curve. You vary your steering wheel extremely little to drive along the road, except when cornering. When you change steering knuckle bearings you find they are worn and indented, they are indented in one position, the straight ahead position, because that is where your wheels are most of the time.
The unit will not be shifting drive side to side in this mode. Yes on turns and cornering .

If one wheel is a new 285/75/16 and the other a worn 285/75/16 (worn down 1/4") the smaller tire will travel 1 & 9/16" shorter , each and every revolution, thereby having to turn constantly faster (free wheel and not be engaged) to make up this amount, so traveling in a relatively straight direction will always see the larger wheel driving.
Since the smaller wheel is always free wheeling, at no time (while traveling in a relatively straight direction) will the smaller wheel come into "driven mode" as when it comes around and drops into the drive slot, the drive is still on the other wheel and the smaller wheel is still traveling faster than the other wheel and there will be no transfer of load. The only way for the smaller wheel to be driven is if the vehicle goes around a corner and the larger wheel slows enough to compensate for the difference in diameters of the tires and the load then transfers to the smaller wheel while cornering. As soon as the vehicle comes out of the corner the load immediately transfers to the larger wheel.
The difference of 1/4" worn tread above equates to the smaller wheel traveling an extra revolution in less than 200 yards or 10 extra revolutions each and every mile.


No it won't change it's operation, but it will drive on one wheel only for most of the time.


I don't expect to notice any difference, although I believe the drive will be predominately on one wheel.

Wow! Just wow!

 

[MountainBum]

Sorry, I'm not convinced by this statement due to the following.
I assume 90% of driving is done in a straight line

Not where I live. I drive 1.5 miles just to get to the main road from my house and only 200 yards or so is straight. the rest is cruves. Maybe if you freeway commute as a DD you drive 90% straight, but my commute is no more than 50% straight driving. What i'm interested in is ANY amount of the load being put on the "freewheeling" tire during straight or slightly cruved driving. It seems like the truck would push to one side some if zero load/power was only going to one tire 90% of the time. Even if it acts like an open diff most of the time, there is some power being transfered to the faster spinning wheel. I have a hrad time believeing they would engineer something that only powered one wheel 100%, 90% of the time.

 

[100 TD]

....... there is some power being transferred to the faster spinning wheel.

How exactly?
If the wheel is spinning faster, it is free wheeling and not being driven.
As far as I can see, there is no "differential action" in this diff, it drives the slowest spinning axle at all times at the same speed of the crown wheel, the slower spinning axle can not go slower than the crown wheel, neither axle can go slower than the crown wheel, if both axles are spinning at EXACTLY the same speed then it will drive both axles, if one axle is going faster than the crown wheel then it free wheels.

Unless there is something in this diff in the clutch mechanism in the end that allows "some" differential action, then I can't see how the drive is delivered to both axles if one is free wheeling as previously noted. Maybe there is something there to give this differential action, if that is the case then the clutch would be constantly wearing to allow for the 10 extra revolutions per mile needed to compensate for the worn tire.
As they say with LSD's, keep your tires the same or you will wear out the clutches in them.

Is there "differential action" in other auto lockers, and how do they achieve this, and at what "difference in axle speed" do they let go and free wheel? How much can they compensate for a tire difference and still provide drive to both axles at 50/50 in a straight line with tires as noted above.

Maybe I've missed something, but I sure would like a definitive answer on this.

 

[ipgregory]

Maybe I've missed something, but I sure would like a definitive answer on this.

OK, trying to be 'definitive' within the parameters you have set.

No, this locker does not contain the functionality of a standard diff.
Yes, it only drives the slowest wheel.
No, it doesn't have any form of clutch. The Friction discs are most likely there to keep the drive units centered and to provide some amount of resistance to help keep the cages set in unloaded situations like when a wheel is off the ground.
Based on your model the larger wheel would get the drive.

Not so definitive....

The problem is that your model is flawed because it is only taking 1 factor into consideration. There are many factors often in play other than just the tire size.

Potential differences in tire pressure and temperature.
Torque from the drive input.
Crown and or grade of the road (as somebody above mentioned).
Major or minor undulations and inconsistencies in the Road Surface (it's not a billiard table).
Wind. Even if there is little or very light wind, unless it's blowing from directly ahead or behind then the truck traveling through it will receive pressure to the sides and it's rarely constant.
Vehicle weight and loading being distributed unevenly on the wheels. You always drive with a passenger who weighs exactly the same as you for example?
Minor curves and changes in the road direction. Very few roads are 'arrow' straight for very great distances.
Driver inattention, fatigue or inexperience causing 'wandering' in the lane.
Fuel moving from side to side in the tank.

To name a few.

What these mean is that you are constantly applying often very minor but sometimes more pronounced corrections to the steering and putting varying pressures on the tires as the weight on them varies. With a typical 4x4 with its higher CofG, taller tires with more flexible sidewalls and longer travel suspension all of these are going to have more effect than they would on say a car.

So typically the speed of the wheels is constantly changing in relation to each other if only very slightly most of the time, even on what seems to be a straight road. Which means the driven wheel will often be switching from side to side on a fairly regular basis as somebody mentioned above.

You can help yourself by not fitting unevenly worn tires on the same axle or in a permanent 4x4 on all 4 points. Use a 'balance' line to balance tire pressures on an axle and so on.

Help any?

Thanks

Ian

 

[100 TD]

No, this locker does not contain the functionality of a standard diff.

Yes, it only drives the slowest wheel.

Help any? Thanks Ian

YEP, sure does

The problem is that your model is flawed because it is only taking 1 factor into consideration

No it's not flawed, it's my model, it's a very simple reality, one tire worn 1/4" more than the other.
10 extra rotations per mile.

Thanks for your answers, they are appreciated.
I won't be buying one, I'll stick with a differential (selectable locker) but anyone considering an auto locker may well look into these as well as other offerings.

 

[Manuelsv]

Sorry Guys.. Have been traveling too much for work, and have had no time for the install.
I will update as soon as it's installed probably in a few weeks though!

 

[Tools R Us]

Sorry Guys.. Have been traveling too much for work, and have had no time for the install.
I will update as soon as it's installed probably in a few weeks though!

If your going to be in town on Friday night, bring it to the CSC meet in Tempe to show it off? I would love to get a look at it!

 

[pfran42]

Hey 100TD...If the Kaiser always applies torque the larger diameter wheel isn't that a good thing? It appears to me that it inadvertently strives to maintain the same wheel diameter of the two wheels it is connected to. Most people won't knowingly run one 90% tread tire along with a 20% one but lets say you don't rotate your tires like you should and they are at 85% and 90%. Wouldn't the Kaiser torque the 90% one (thus wearing it out faster) until it reached an equilibrium with the 85% one. I would think that even tire wear is a good thing.

FYI, I really don't know much about all of this but it is a very good read!

 

[Manuelsv]

I will be at Sonic's tonite.. I'll bring the gismo for everyone's viewing pleasure!

 

[medtro]

I will be at Sonic's tonite.. I'll bring the gismo for everyone's viewing pleasure!

Don't go tonite. The meeting was on last Friday nite.

 

[Manuelsv]

Too Late

Don't go tonite. The meeting was on last Friday nite.

But At least I got a good burger!

Anyho! Sorry for the loooooooong delay! But I am going to get it done over the next couple of weeks, Finally will have the time since I am taking a 2 week Staycation from work!

 

[Manuelsv]

Installing today.

We got the carrier out.
Installed the crown? gear.. and where ready to swap out the bearings.. But found the diameter of the Kaiser sleeve at the end where the carrier bearing sits is smaller than the OEM so we haad to order new bearings with the new smaller inside diameter, and the same outside diameter as OEM..
So needless to say I will now not be able to stay OEM with the bearings.. We ordered SKF brand since it was the only available to match the size! Is SKF any good? :whoops:

 

[Tools R Us]

... Is SKF any good? :whoops:

Yes, SKF has a good reputation.