Wow thats deep
Kaiser Locker
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Sorry, I was reading with my melodramatic glasses on again...
It just seemed to me that, oh, well, there's a new kid on the block... Lets forget about all the other established kids and go pretend this one's the new Messiah...
Don't know where I would have gotten that idea from... COUGH/ziplocker/COUGH...
That sounds like a Rover fault to me... I'm almost sure there is a bourd full of ppl here that didn't have to beef up their hubs, shafts, ring and pinions and Ujoints and trannys...
Just to run a locker...
Look at the youtube vid again... Look at the two inner red parts, and how they touch when the difference in rotation between the two wheels exist...
And I'm sorry, but the more i read this, the more it sounds like a glorified limited slip... Albeit a limited slip that requires a lot less "slip" than normal clutch and spring types...
And, it's got mechanical stops. So when the stops are maxed out... It will chirp and bind.
Pins or rollers, in grooves, is not a "locker". I'm thinking it's made to go around curves without bind, not make turns w/o it.
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Not going to argue with you on the weak driveline. Rovers don't have the strongest stock set up out there by a long shot. But any driveline can break and a design that reduces the amount of stress being fed back into the driveline is not a bad thing as far as I can see. Especially since I drive a Rover with stock drivetrain....
Here I will disagree. I have it and I am running it. It doesn't "Max Out" and it doesn't bind. You can drive round in circles with no lock up or binding (I've tried).
The two inner red parts (bearing cages) are there to stop both wheels being able to overrun at the same time. The limited travel is because they only need to move far enough to stop the bearings lifting into the carrier grooves on both sides at the same time. They are not mechanical stops.
With the exception of an ARB, pretty much any locker out there is 'limited slip' by that definition as it moves back from its open to locked configuration. So no, it's not limited slip in the way that a truetrac is but it could be in the same way as a detroit is if you want to think of it that way. But in practice it's a steerable locker. It locks both wheels to drive speed in the direction of travel while allowing the faster wheel to be 'unlocked' if you will to enable cornering, etc.
So by that definition, rollers being pushed into grooves by drive force are not a locker, but gear teeth being held engaged by spring pressure are? Come on... It's a locker.... Admit it....
I will add though that my original explanation was a little confusing. The bearings 'rest' position is 'down' in the drive unit grooves (aka Locked).
The OP asked for somebody who had one to comment on it. I have one and I like it. It works and in my opinion (for what it's worth) it's a pretty good set up. I wheel with people who have many of the different types of locker out there and I get to see the strengths and weaknesses of them. This one works for me.
But as always, YMMV.
Thanks
Ian
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So, if the outside tire is able to rotate "freely" in a curve to go faster than the ring, what keeps you from free-wheeling down a hill if one tire looses traction like an open diff.? (the tire that lost traction is going speed of diff. while the other is being "turned faster by the ground") Am I missing something? thats one safety feature I like with a locker and why I dont feel this fits into the locker category.
Sounds like it does what an Aussie locker does--but with 50 times more parts and 4 times the cost.
It's good to see more options out there, but I don't see how it is that great.
It's good to see more options out there, but I don't see how it is that great.
So by that definition, rollers being pushed into grooves by drive force are not a locker, but gear teeth being held engaged by spring pressure are? Come on... It's a locker.... Admit it....
Thanks
Ian
Thank you. I knew somebody would challenge this...
But sorry, "lockers" don't have ANY slop in them...
They unlock after-the-fact. And are a total spool until they do.
And I also think you're neglecting that a curve or turn is just a long loss of traction. That is, differentiation is differentiation... It's just on a slower, much slower scale...
So if lockup won't be achieved until pins reach the point they can't roll anymore... On a very sharp and small scale, the same thing will happen when one tire loses traction immediately. The roller still have to get to the end of the slots... Be it in a turn, or with a loss of traction...
Again, it should work just like this...
it should have the same effect as doing this...
Suzuki Samurai Project Fredurai - 4-Wheel and Off-Road
"Some folks weld the side gears directly to the spider gears when welding their spools, but I chose to try just welding between the gear teeth in the side gear so that there was still some slop in the differential. This will allow a little movement, and in theory, would help when cornering. It may also allow the spider gears to try and step up over the welds and blow the differential apart, or let the diff wind up and put extreme shock load on the shafts. Either way, I will let you know when it happens."
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And whoops, the comment in the post I made above IS WRONG... Lockers most certainly do have slop...
Well, pocket lockers at least...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coQp-Yn20hQ
Well, pocket lockers at least...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coQp-Yn20hQ
Based on my reading of the descriptions here, it sounds like it would behave no better and no worse than an open differential in the situation you describe... unless I'm missing something.
If I'm reading the description correctly here, this works a little differently from what you describe above:
Traditional LSD - Behaves more or less like an open differential until difference in rate of spin across diff occurs after which it becomes increasingly more locked (either partially or fully)
Kaiser - Behaves like a locked differential initially, until difference in rate of spin occurs, at which point it allows one wheel (and only one) to spin faster than the input axle would dictate.
This may be merely a matter of semantics, but slightly different mechanisms in my mind...
A detroit or another steerable locker is going to do exactly the same thing in this example. The 'driven' wheel is going to continue to turn at engine speed while it is slipping (so it is not stalled at least and has a better chance to regain traction, which is why we don't use the brakes to begin with). The 'free' wheel will turn at 'ground' speed as it has traction. In the detroit when the wheel on one side loses traction in the descent but the other still has it, it will unlock eventually the same as if it were in a corner. An ARB will not do this but it has its own problems as both wheels are locked together. Since it's rare (except on a straight smooth road with both tires having equal tire pressure and a perfectly straight descent) that both wheels are going to be turning exactly the same speed, the locked wheels will fight each other for the available traction. What you're describing is a situation where pretty much any lockers are working against you rather than for you.
I clarified my description to point out that the 'resting' position of the bearings is in the grooves or 'locked' position. The only slop would be the width of the channel inside the drive carrier. Since that carrier is designed to work on the force of the bearing pushing against it then I highly doubt it's going to detonate as you describe the welded set up could. So I don't see the comparison. Also, there is always going to be some 'slop' as you put it in any set up, backlash or play if you prefer. If there wasn't then it wouldn't last very long would it?
In practice this thing works. It doesn't slip and it doesn't bind. I can attest to that because I have one and I am driving it. Like many of you I was dubious to begin with. I looked at it on paper and tried to work out what it was doing. Then I tried to work out why it 'wouldn't' work. Came up with a bunch of scenarios and bounced them off the Kaiser guys. I eventually drank the Kool Aid because we couldn't come up with a situation that we thought defeated it. Other than those where any locker is detrimental, such as the one above, on a side slope, etc.
As I said, YMMV, but for me I like the product and will get and fit another one. But don't bash it just because it is new or because you don't understand it. Give it a chance. Having another product choice out there isn't a bad thing for us is it?
Thanks
Ian
It works like all other auto lockers: Neither wheel can turn slower than the ring gear, but one can turn faster. In normal operation when both tires have traction, one wheel is driving and the other is ratcheting or free wheeling. When one tire loses traction, both wheels are locked to the carrier and driven.
It just uses a different mechanism to accomplish this. It uses roller pins to couple the axles to the carrier, while other auto lockers use shallow teeth on the driver and couplers.
It just uses a different mechanism to accomplish this. It uses roller pins to couple the axles to the carrier, while other auto lockers use shallow teeth on the driver and couplers.
Bingo. Now put yourself in the position of a limited slip...
How do you know when there is a "difference in rate of spin"?
It functions as a before-the-fact, b/c it first has to have wheel spin in order to work.
Aussie locker? No. It is fully locked and will not be unlocked until: a) there is sufficient room from the cross pin and it backs off to give the over run side enough room to pop out and spin over the drive gears, aka: Backlash!
And b) there is a difference in rotation for the cam gears to want to pop out from the drive gears...
Otherwise, look at the factory pics, the springs push the cam gears into the drive gears...
Ok, now put yourself in the position of needle bearings in a slot...
Drive will be permitted if and only when one sides needle bearings come to the end of the slots...
And in a perfect world, I'm sorry but both wheels will not reach the slots at the exact time...
So that means when you drive, (not 4wheeling here) one set of pins has reached the end of the slots and not until the other side does, will that side permit drive. The slack side will simply be coasting until the drive side slips, or a change in direction lessens on the one side and the pins reach the end of the slots on the other side...
aka: a turn or curve...
And that's why it's a limited slip...
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And this difference is why 'I' like it over the other options out there. The key for me is the fact that it doesn't have to overcome things like spring pressure, clutch friction or some other mechanical force system to disengage. It doesn't 'suddenly' release or require a wheel to spin before it engages. Because of that it is quiet and smooth in its operation and it doesn't inject force back into my weak assed Rover Driveline. Not having to shell out $5k to beef up my axels so I could fit a locker made it a pretty convincing choice for me but as has been pointed out, that's not so much of an issue for the people here.
I probably wouldn't have chosen a Toyota Forum to host the 1st real big discussion of it. You guys certainly don't suffer from the same driveline issues as some of the rest of us. That said though, I don't see it as being a negative to remove that from the equation even for you guys. You still suffer tire wear and traction loss from wheels fighting with traction before unlocking.
Hopefully the OP will get his installed and come back and comment on his findings once he has driven it. Be interesting to see his what he has to say.
To the OP, if you are still considering how to get it installed. Since you're in Phoenix, take it down to the Mesa branch of Desert Rat and ask for Shaun. He installed mine. It's a LOT cheaper if you pull the 3rd yourself and just take that down, but if you want to just drive in and drive out I am sure they will accommodate you.....
Thanks
Ian
Hilux, I still think you're missing the point here. The pins are 'already' IN the slots. That's the 'default', 'rest', 'starting' position, whatever you want to call it. They are only moved up by a wheel turning 'faster'. So it starts locked. I am not sure what you mean by the 'end' of the slots?
Man, it's so much easier to explain this with the demo unit and in person.....
They sell it to DRAG racers, precisly because it starts locked and applies drive to both wheels equaly when in a straight line!
The bearings only lift when you start to turn or the ground becomes uneven and one wheel has to speed up. They are trying to get back down into the slots all the time. They are not 'rolling' around waiting for the force direction to push them one way or another.
From the drivers seat it operates precisely the same as a detroit but without the occasional 'shotgun' release.
Make sense?
Man, it's so much easier to explain this with the demo unit and in person.....
They sell it to DRAG racers, precisly because it starts locked and applies drive to both wheels equaly when in a straight line!
The bearings only lift when you start to turn or the ground becomes uneven and one wheel has to speed up. They are trying to get back down into the slots all the time. They are not 'rolling' around waiting for the force direction to push them one way or another.
From the drivers seat it operates precisely the same as a detroit but without the occasional 'shotgun' release.
Make sense?
it's a double overun clutch, they use them on the front of the
Husqvarna/bobcat/clubcar utv's work great, no real slip, because they start locked, and relock withing a 30th of a rotation or so.
they just allow a wheel to spin faster, not slower than the input.
the UTV front version uses springs to unlock and a electromagnet to create drag to lock it. in the rear it's just always locked.
they act like a spool until you want to turn.
it's similar to what's in car's. and how reverse works in a automatic transmission. how strong this locker is is anybodys call.
Husqvarna/bobcat/clubcar utv's work great, no real slip, because they start locked, and relock withing a 30th of a rotation or so.
they just allow a wheel to spin faster, not slower than the input.
the UTV front version uses springs to unlock and a electromagnet to create drag to lock it. in the rear it's just always locked.
they act like a spool until you want to turn.
it's similar to what's in car's. and how reverse works in a automatic transmission. how strong this locker is is anybodys call.
Which slots? There are two. One in the drive spiders/ gear whatever's... the parts that the axle shafts slide into...
And there are slots in the case...
That's the 'default', 'rest', 'starting' position, whatever you want to call it. They are only moved up by a wheel turning 'faster'. So it starts locked. I am not sure what you mean by the 'end' of the slots?
Man, it's so much easier to explain this with the demo unit and in person.....
They sell it to DRAG racers, precisly because it starts locked and applies drive to both wheels equaly when in a straight line!
The bearings only lift when you start to turn or the ground becomes uneven and one wheel has to speed up. They are trying to get back down into the slots all the time. They are not 'rolling' around waiting for the force direction to push them one way or another.
ok, let me get this straight... Where would this thing go, if there were NO needle bearings in it?
And I do know where the needles are, and where they start. What's confusing me is the "moving up, and down" and "lift"
I assure you, they do not move up and down. They will move fwd and backward, allong the slots in the case... But only to the stops, or the slot runs out.
From the drivers seat, my open diffs operate just like a Detroit, except for when I make a sharp turn, or a wheel looses traction...
It's hard to say from the driver seat, but not when I jack one wheel up and turn a tire with it in and out of gear...
right... And the "clutch lock up" is when the needle bearings stops slip at the end of the slots, thus permitting drive...
I do not agree with you on the starting locked up... B/c who knows where the relation of the needle bearing is to the slot in the case, for every time you take off, or "permit drive".
The needle can come to stop at the end on the slots on one side, and it will drive... And saying it's locked from the driver seat is BS...
And I agree with you on the the "30th of a rotation"... You can see it has tight tolorances...
But the rotation will only go so far back, and so far fwd... Not the blanket "faster/ slower than the carrier".
That's like saying "I make turns, but not sharp ones". The ammount of play, or stops will tell you how far it can go w/o hitting them and causing lockup.
