semlin
curmudgeon
agreed. the problem is that the open loop mixture is not rich enough to cover all situations. that's why i think they upped the open loop fuel dump for later models.
landtank said:
thanks mr. rumsfeld
junk yard turbo?
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agreed. the problem is that the open loop mixture is not rich enough to cover all situations. that's why i think they upped the open loop fuel dump for later models.
thanks mr. rumsfeld
My point wasn't so much heavy loads during high temps nor ever running the truck on a track. I would never think/pick a cruiser for a track car.
My thoughts are more along the line of cam profile design in relation to high rpm volumetric efficency vs. A/F ratio tuning. I think the 1fz-fe cam may suck for high rpm 3500 to 5000 rpm volumetric efficency. In other words, the truck will never be a dyno queen just really fun on the street and offroad. There maybe little point to really improving A/F ratio for much hp or torque if the cam is set up for low rpm torque. Best way to answer my question is to just measure the cam profile.
I also agree with landtank the 93/94 systems.
thanks mr. rumsfeld
thanks for sparing me "Mr. ST"
congrats man - looks great
just a random thought - with a 4x4 beast you are looking for low speed intercooling (under 20 mph?)...... not top end intercooling
if so, air to air heat exchangers are contraindicated (true?)
thinking about running pipe within a pipe along frame rail..... air intake is in inside pipe.... inject liquid CO2 (or chilled brine) into outer pipe & it indirectly cools inner pipe
another thought is Nitrous and/or water/alcohol injection to the fresh air pipe and it directly cools the intake charge .....
I can use some ideas on the intercooler pipe. My wideband was reading 9.8:1 on extended steady boost at 30% throttle. Most of the time I see low 10s under boost though. I will definitely be doing some kind of fuel control later. -Andy
just a random thought - with a 4x4 beast you are looking for low speed intercooling (under 20 mph?)...... not top end intercooling
if so, air to air heat exchangers are contraindicated (true?)
thinking about running pipe within a pipe along frame rail..... air intake is in inside pipe.... inject liquid CO2 (or chilled brine) into outer pipe & it indirectly cools inner pipe
another thought is Nitrous and/or water/alcohol injection to the fresh air pipe and it directly cools the intake charge .....
Dusty- I'm using a Weldon pump mounted on the left frame rail to recirculate the oil back to the front. This was wired to a 30 amp relay with the trigger coming from the fuel pump circuit. I will be installing a LED so I can be assured the pump is running. I don't like to use ign. power because the pump will run every time the key is on. I think that some people may be getting hung up on AFRs and are confused. In my opinion the stock tune is great for long term reliability & performance for N.A. (non turbo/supercharged) vehicles. The big thing for me is that I personally want 11.5:1 AFR tapering to 10:8 (maybe 11:1)or so at the redline. These targets are just that. I have not tuned a Cruiser yet, but think anything in the mid 12s is too lean under moderate boost. My plan is to get precise fuel & timing control with the stock fuel system. I will be using a Link Stand alone ECU after I heal from the engine build. I will ditch the MAF. Although there are several piggyback solutions out there. I have been harassed by all my co-workers enough. They say I need an ECU! We are all excited about my project & all Cruiser fans. BTW my family & I loaded into the 80 last night & did a "full moon" trip up Shasta Bally. We followed some friends in a new Pathfinder. It was technical & steep. We stayed in low range most of the 12 mile trip. I had more fun than ever with all the power & new found drivability! Amazing difference! This morning I realized just how bad the air filter needs to be relocated & I found my front driveline was hitting my downpipe. I gave the pretty downpipe some airhammer love & all is well. Thank You! to all boosted here that inspired me and I give Props to all that have given to this site & the cause.- Andy
I have used Nitrous, water injection on customers vehicles in the past. It is good to have Meth or water as a means to not pre-ignite, but I don't like to use it in a daily driver application. If it runs out and your tuned for it you can be at risk. I did install it in several Honda/ Acura cars that were supercharged with good results. These cars were on the ragged edge of pinging & they used pressure switches to come on at 5psi. Not a bad idea, but I'd forget to fill the water/meth. I have 4 kids.....
That dual pipe idea is cool.. HMMMMM
That dual pipe idea is cool.. HMMMMMI'm interested as well in an economical approach to truly controlling the a/f ratio under boost during all RPM's/conditions and running the stock ECM with a piggyback setup.
If you put alchy injection (methanol) on a Hobbs switch (pressure activated) to only come on under "x" amount of boost that will also give you an additional buffer zone and cooling effect like you mentioned.
You want the incoming charge to be as cool as possible bottom line. The charge pipe routing the air from the compressor of the turbo is doing a minimal job at cooling. You really should plumb in a heat exchanger. Alchy will be the easiest to install and help with that (vs. running no intercooler). As a side benefit is also about 120 octane so no worrying about pinging even under heavy load.
Remember when the air temp outside starts to swing to much cooler 40's-60's the truck will feel like a beast due to it running a little leaner as well as the denser air charge.
I'd keep the MAF sensor. It compensates for air temp and altitude correction. Speed density tuning is great for max power.... but not truly the best for a vehicle that can see huge swings in temp/altitude.
If you put alchy injection (methanol) on a Hobbs switch (pressure activated) to only come on under "x" amount of boost that will also give you an additional buffer zone and cooling effect like you mentioned.
You want the incoming charge to be as cool as possible bottom line. The charge pipe routing the air from the compressor of the turbo is doing a minimal job at cooling. You really should plumb in a heat exchanger. Alchy will be the easiest to install and help with that (vs. running no intercooler). As a side benefit is also about 120 octane so no worrying about pinging even under heavy load.
Remember when the air temp outside starts to swing to much cooler 40's-60's the truck will feel like a beast due to it running a little leaner as well as the denser air charge.
I'd keep the MAF sensor. It compensates for air temp and altitude correction. Speed density tuning is great for max power.... but not truly the best for a vehicle that can see huge swings in temp/altitude.
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Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
The propane injection can be used in gassers aplications . ?
[EDIT]
as a side note - the liquid CO2 idea and a pipe within a pipe comes from the guys who spray co2 on the outside of their intercoolers...
having thought about it a bit more maybe best to have CO2 injected into an inner pipe and have the air to the engine in the outer pipe.... when not actually spraying co2 in the inner pipe the outer pipe is exposed to outside air...... another thought is to loop a copper coil inside the air pipe to the front (by having cooling section inside the intake pipe you are not insulated by the co2 jacket)
FINAL thought on this.... run your 3" aluminum air intake inside a 4 or 6 inch PVC pipe and rig up an electric blower to blow or suck air thru the outer duct..... fins would be nice but extra $$$$
as a side note - the liquid CO2 idea and a pipe within a pipe comes from the guys who spray co2 on the outside of their intercoolers...
having thought about it a bit more maybe best to have CO2 injected into an inner pipe and have the air to the engine in the outer pipe.... when not actually spraying co2 in the inner pipe the outer pipe is exposed to outside air...... another thought is to loop a copper coil inside the air pipe to the front (by having cooling section inside the intake pipe you are not insulated by the co2 jacket)
FINAL thought on this.... run your 3" aluminum air intake inside a 4 or 6 inch PVC pipe and rig up an electric blower to blow or suck air thru the outer duct..... fins would be nice but extra $$$$
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Good ideas & info guys. I agree that the charge pipe has minimal cooling effect. It has cooling properties because of it's length. I am stepping back from the project for a month or so. My schedule is tight with weddings, school shopping and several weekend outings planned. I am going to address the air intake first, and let everyones ideas about cooling the intake air charge soak in. I appreciate all the input. Some things to consider about octane. If I use a outside source to effectively raise octane, better grade fuel, booster, methanol, etc. I will have just made my vehicle less prone to pre-ignition or pinging. This will only be an advantage if I had timing & fuel control as higher octane fuel will burn slower. It will also make less power unless the vehicle is tuned for this condition. This is why I don't care to add water/meth injectionon to a DD. I would rather tune the vehicle to my crappy 91 octane fuel to be efficient & maximize power after I install an intercooler. I will probably decide to somehow work with the current length of
charge pipe and keep the same distance to the t-body. It spools so good now. About the Link Standalone ecu and elevation changes. It uses IAT, MAP,TPS, Barometric pressure, Coolant temp,& load values to control tuning targets & trim fuel just like the factory ECU. This system can use a WB o2 as a primary sensor! I can install a large MAF or just choose to run without. I can limit boost or RPM by using the coolant temp, trans temp or any sensor & parameter input I choose. For example boost could be controlled by a solenoid & set at 0 psi(WG spring pressure) until full operating temp is seen, then back to normal boost pressure and rev limit. You can set soft or hard rev limits for offroading. On the engine dyno, we were able to create a smooth flatline rev limit by stacking the soft & hard rev limiter on the test engine, a 1UZFE. It was the coolest thing ever, just sounds like your holding the gas pedal at the given RPM. Switchable maps & dash monitor with built in gauge displays. This may seem like too much complication for our cruisers, but I think we will see better control at the hands of an experienced tuner. Someone armed with a WB o2 & a knock gauge can build on a great platform by using engine management that is 10 years newer technology. I will dedicate my time to develop a harness & header plug that will plug in to the OBD 2 80 series. This is what I will be using. http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management/Wire-In/lemg3-specifications Wish me luck...
charge pipe and keep the same distance to the t-body. It spools so good now. About the Link Standalone ecu and elevation changes. It uses IAT, MAP,TPS, Barometric pressure, Coolant temp,& load values to control tuning targets & trim fuel just like the factory ECU. This system can use a WB o2 as a primary sensor! I can install a large MAF or just choose to run without. I can limit boost or RPM by using the coolant temp, trans temp or any sensor & parameter input I choose. For example boost could be controlled by a solenoid & set at 0 psi(WG spring pressure) until full operating temp is seen, then back to normal boost pressure and rev limit. You can set soft or hard rev limits for offroading. On the engine dyno, we were able to create a smooth flatline rev limit by stacking the soft & hard rev limiter on the test engine, a 1UZFE. It was the coolest thing ever, just sounds like your holding the gas pedal at the given RPM. Switchable maps & dash monitor with built in gauge displays. This may seem like too much complication for our cruisers, but I think we will see better control at the hands of an experienced tuner. Someone armed with a WB o2 & a knock gauge can build on a great platform by using engine management that is 10 years newer technology. I will dedicate my time to develop a harness & header plug that will plug in to the OBD 2 80 series. This is what I will be using. http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management/Wire-In/lemg3-specifications Wish me luck...
Someone on Mud was using a Greddy E-manage with a Mitsu. EVO harness. I wonder how that worked out?
was I reading the site correctly, a grand for an entry level unit?
Yepper, the only problem now is a small price conflict between the manufacturer & the US distributor. I guess Performance Developments (Link USA) is having a hard time getting Link to change the prices online. The prices don't reflect all the costs of shipping to the US, marketing etc. The Link product is almost unheard of in the US, but very good stuff. I hope they can work this out. We had to wait 3 to 4 weeks for our last two ECUs. 
This is a very advanced 32bit ECU at a fraction of the cost of other brands, Motec, AEM, Etc. The Engineers were flown from NewZeland to SoCal to train dealers from all over the states. I will begin wiring on a JDM 1JZ this week. The harness & ECU sure look nice. I'm dying to try one on my truck. I am going to have to wait a while though. Expect stocking dealer pricing to be about 15 to 20% higher from what I'm told. Still crazy cheap by comparison to other brands.
This is a very advanced 32bit ECU at a fraction of the cost of other brands, Motec, AEM, Etc. The Engineers were flown from NewZeland to SoCal to train dealers from all over the states. I will begin wiring on a JDM 1JZ this week. The harness & ECU sure look nice. I'm dying to try one on my truck. I am going to have to wait a while though. Expect stocking dealer pricing to be about 15 to 20% higher from what I'm told. Still crazy cheap by comparison to other brands.
Here are some more pictures. The turbo is a CAT hand me down, WG is Tial 44mm & weldon pump for oil return is on the left. My exhaust is 3" from downpipe y to turbo. Exhaust after the turbo is 4" & charge pipe is 2.25" to the MAF. The next challenge will be the intake/snorkel. Thanks for all the encouragement & ideas -Andy
NaterGator
On Gilligan's Island
Are you doing anything for heat under the carpet in the rear?
so how is that thing affected by just driving through a heavy rain storm?
I like the idea of what you're doing but have a couple of comments.
The boost is really coming on too late. These are low end breathers and your missing out on a lot of that. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, the Safari makes 2lbs at 800 rpms.
I think the main culprit for this is the 3" pipe from the "Y" to the turbo. You're loosing a lot of velocity there and it's killing the spooling. I recently read an article about this exact issue and it recommended keeping the feed to the turbo small and then go big afterwards.
I'm not sure how compatable this gizmo you're looking is, but I'd what to be absolutely sure before handing that kind of money over on a unit. There have been more failures than successes with piggy backs and such on these trucks.
Hope this hasn't come across the wrong way, I really do applaud you for going out and running with an idea and then posting accurate results. Quite a few of these types of threads start out with big hopes and then just fade away never to be heard of again. I think some hit a wall and would rather not admit it.
Good job!
The boost is really coming on too late. These are low end breathers and your missing out on a lot of that. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, the Safari makes 2lbs at 800 rpms.
I think the main culprit for this is the 3" pipe from the "Y" to the turbo. You're loosing a lot of velocity there and it's killing the spooling. I recently read an article about this exact issue and it recommended keeping the feed to the turbo small and then go big afterwards.
I'm not sure how compatable this gizmo you're looking is, but I'd what to be absolutely sure before handing that kind of money over on a unit. There have been more failures than successes with piggy backs and such on these trucks.
Hope this hasn't come across the wrong way, I really do applaud you for going out and running with an idea and then posting accurate results. Quite a few of these types of threads start out with big hopes and then just fade away never to be heard of again. I think some hit a wall and would rather not admit it.
Good job!
Wow, that is pretty rich, but I agree with you leaning towards to rich side.
I was tuning for 12:1 on the Supras I worked on under moderate boost (20psi) and 11.5:1 on high boost (26psi). A noticeable difference could be observed from the knock sensor feedback when moving from the mid 12s to the high 11s.
Tuning for mid 13s under boost seems risky to me, even at these lower boost pressures of 5-6psi.
Don't forget, fuel has a cooling affect on the cylinder.
Your oil line looks like it is missing? Is the turbo oil and water cooled? The system looks very clean. Though, I don't like your air filter location. I assume more to come on that front?
I have heard of the Link. It's a very good product. Fly'nmiata basicly reversed engineered the link software on an older version of the link stand alone ecu around 1996 to 1997. That was my first real cutting of the teeth into EFI programing. I came way with a much better understanding and apprecitation of that factory ecu's programing. Their reengineered link product came out great and work really well, but was still no match for the adjustablity of the factory ecu's software out of boost. Out of boost in that application the factory ecu just really shined in torque and hp compared to the reengineered link once a hydraulic dyno was used to vary the load, temp, gas quality, temp, ect.
Good luck with the standalone ecu. Hats off to you, it will take alot of time to program/map well for all conditions.
I have heard of the Link. It's a very good product. Fly'nmiata basicly reversed engineered the link software on an older version of the link stand alone ecu around 1996 to 1997. That was my first real cutting of the teeth into EFI programing. I came way with a much better understanding and apprecitation of that factory ecu's programing. Their reengineered link product came out great and work really well, but was still no match for the adjustablity of the factory ecu's software out of boost. Out of boost in that application the factory ecu just really shined in torque and hp compared to the reengineered link once a hydraulic dyno was used to vary the load, temp, gas quality, temp, ect.
Good luck with the standalone ecu. Hats off to you, it will take alot of time to program/map well for all conditions.
