isuzu 4BD1T swap?! (3 Viewers)

[Dougal]

Ok, I checked your comments on the 4BD1T reliability thread. I just checked with http://www.parts-supply.com/ and they have what seems to be good deal on what they call and engine overhaul kit. About $1,500 for pistons, rings liners, gaskets, bearings, seals, pretty much everything you need. I asked him if it was Isuzu or aftermarket and he said most of the parts are Isuzu in that kit becuase there aren't many aftermarkets for those engines. I asked him about the questionalble quality of the aftermarket parts and basically his answer was that it depends upon the manufacturer of the aftermarket parts, there are good and bad. I guess my question is, is this the place you got parts from? It would be nice to get everything in one package like that and be done with it. Also what about the head, again my engine has 208,000 miles on it, I guess I will rebuild it while it is off along with the oil and water pumps, I understand they are rebuildable? Anyone done this?
Rusty
97 FZJ80

I'm in New Zealand, the aftermarket parts I used and had issues with were from the countries biggest seller of aftermarket engine parts.

If they're genuine Isuzu parts, then it'll be written all over the packaging. I get my Isuzu parts from the Isuzu dealerships.

To my knowledge every part of this engine is available aftermarket, you can even buy complete copies of the whole engine (infact the whole NPR truck) out of china if you have the contacts.

Here're the rough prices I paid or was quoted(in $NZ, $US was approx 2/3 that).
Full genuine gasket set $NZ300 incl steel headgasket
Aftermarket gaset set $NZ300 has fibre headgasket
4 cylinder rebuild kits (matched piston, ring, liner) $NZ1600
Genuine piston rings (4) $NZ200
Aftermarket pistons (4) $NZ300
Genuine Big End bearing shells (4 sets) $NZ32

Just to reinforce what I said in the 4BTswaps thread. These are the parts that I would never again stray from genuine on.
Piston/ring/liner kits.
Gasket sets.
Oil seals (included in the factory gasket set).

 

[rtarh2o]

I will check and see which parts in the rebuild kit are Isuzu. Also, they said they had rebuild kits for the water and oil pumps, didn't ask the price but typically those items aren't expensive enough to warrant rebuilding. Any idea on new pumps?
Rusty
97 FZJ80

 

[astr]

Just today I received a complete gasket set for my 4BD1T from gaskets4less. It cost me $104.90 including shipping. It was made in Taiwan and appears to be quite complete. The head gasket is steel, acutally four or five layers of steel - certainly not what I would consider a cheap gasket. In addition to the gaskets, front and rear crankshaft seal, valve stem seals, and a bunch of other stuff that I haven't yet identified was included.

Will the gaskets last? Only time will tell. I'll post some pictures of the set in the next few days and as I reassemble the engine I'll post my impressions of the gasket set.

 

[Dougal]

Just today I received a complete gasket set for my 4BD1T from gaskets4less. It cost me $104.90 including shipping. It was made in Taiwan and appears to be quite complete. The head gasket is steel, acutally four or five layers of steel - certainly not what I would consider a cheap gasket. In addition to the gaskets, front and rear crankshaft seal, valve stem seals, and a bunch of other stuff that I haven't yet identified was included.

Will the gaskets last? Only time will tell. I'll post some pictures of the set in the next few days and as I reassemble the engine I'll post my impressions of the gasket set.

What did you get for a rocker cover gasket?
The factory one is shaped to fit and looks right. The aftermarket kit I had was simply a long piece of oring rubber. I was not impressed.

 

[astr]

The valve cover gasket is a formed rubber-like gasket. It is molded with tabs that fit the notches in the valve cover to hold it in place.

Based upon your comments concerning the quality of aftermarket parts, I will inspect the gaskets cafefully. At this point, I have not even verified that all of the gaskets are all the correct ones. The only ones that I have inspected close and personal were the head gasket and the valve cover gasket. I haven't compared them to the old ones yet as I can't find the old ones. I know I put them somewhere safe!!!

I'll take some pictures and post them probably next week.

 

[Dougal]

The valve cover gasket is a formed rubber-like gasket. It is molded with tabs that fit the notches in the valve cover to hold it in place.

Based upon your comments concerning the quality of aftermarket parts, I will inspect the gaskets cafefully. At this point, I have not even verified that all of the gaskets are all the correct ones. The only ones that I have inspected close and personal were the head gasket and the valve cover gasket. I haven't compared them to the old ones yet as I can't find the old ones. I know I put them somewhere safe!!!

I'll take some pictures and post them probably next week.

It sounds like the aftermarket gasket set you've got is far ahead in quality of the one I got. Possibly even identical to the genuine article.
If the rocker cover and head gasket check out that well then I wouldn't be concerned about the rest of the set.

 

[crushers]

Andy: Yeah, Im with you there. That would be the best possible situation. even if I needed to machine a small extension to grab the pilot bearing and the crank it would still be the easiest path. I have been operating under the assumption that the H55F input shaft would not be long enough. The only way to settle this is the measure all the parts and figure it out.
.

another option would be the B series or HZ H55F since they have longer imput shafts... especially since most F and H series H55F H42 trannys have a gadzillion miles on them and are usually in need or close to needing a rebuild...

 

[crushers]

okay, after reading this thread this is what i am getting out of it...correct me where i am wrong.
the 4BD1T is one tough little engine that puts out roughly 136 hp... correct?
the 4BD1T is good for about 300,000 miles.
the 4BD2T has head issues... forget that BTDT.
you need an adapter to any toyota/gm tranny
you need an adapter from the gm tranny to the toyota t/case...correct?
you fuel milage "should" be around 30 mpg.
the 4BD1T requires a lift to clear the oil pan.
what about rad inlet and out let and core size. is the stock large enough for proper cooling?
mounts are different.
exhaust is on the opposite side.
you can pick these engines up used for about $4000 at the high end.

now if you go with a 1HZ you get 135 hp, almost a straight bolt up, they come with either auto or manual. minor changes required to make them fit. you get 30 mpg. they are quiet, you can turbo them of excellent power and reliability at lease 500,000km if not much more depending on driving style and maintainence (change out the BEB of course).

so my question is:
other than the idea of being different what is the advantage of all the work involved in putting the 4BD1T into a Land Cruiser vs an engine that was designed to go into it?

in the end the cost is going to be about the same and the resale value of a Isuzu engined Land Cruiser will be less than the Toyota engined cruiser.

just curious.

 

[Dougal]

so my question is:
other than the idea of being different what is the advantage of all the work involved in putting the 4BD1T into a Land Cruiser vs an engine that was designed to go into it?

in the end the cost is going to be about the same and the resale value of a Isuzu engined Land Cruiser will be less than the Toyota engined cruiser.

just curious.

The 4BD1T was available new in the markets being discussed, which makes it a whole lot easier to get hold of. If 1HZ's and 1HD's were commonly available it'd be an easy choice to make. Interestingly even over here where toyota engines are commonplace, many people have pulled them and replaced with Isuzu engines.

The 1HZ is indirect injection making it less efficient which means it uses more fuel to do the same job. Toyota don't seem to publish BSFC curves for these engines but it would tell a lot. If you think you can get 30mpg from a 1HZ (I have yet to meet someone who could) then you'll get more from the Isuzu.

There are some occurances of a 4BD2 cracking heads, yet by toyota standards even those engines heads are bullet proof.
The 4B's are factory turbo, factory fitted oil cooler, factory piston oil spray and will do 500,000km easily under 15psi boost. Toyota heads crack without turbos.

Cooling is not a problem. You replace a petrol with a similar size diesel and your radiator size can drop dramatically.

If the 1HZ does have 135 horse power, then they're smaller horses than Isuzu uses. The 1HZ powered 70 series cruiser I've driven was very lethargic.

 

[crushers]

so the engines in this thread are used but the idea is to offer a kit to install brand new engines, what kind of cost are we talking here? and the 4BD1T is availabe as a crate motor still, correct?
after re-reading the thread it seems the 4BD1T is 121 hp and the 4BD2T is 136 hp but cracks heads. according to your statements it seems the 4BD2T (There are also an alarming number of new 4BD2T heads on Ebay, if there's that much demand I'd be steering clear.) is a poor choice of engine due to this problem. (i have yet to see any cracked 1HZ,1HDT heads in Canada but then we have not had these engines here for more than 2 years (other than in the mines and after talking with Brian at ENS they have not seen any cracked heads there either)). in Oz the report back is the 1HZ is cracking heads AFTER installation of a turbo (which leads to a whole different list of questions there)
in actuall fuel milage reports coming back comparing the 3B(indirect injection) with the 13BT (direct injection) the 13BT is getting worse milage by on average 5 mpg. the 2H (indirect injection) compared to the 12HT (direct injection) the same results are being reported. the 1HZ and the HDT are reporting close to the same milage returns, high 20s to very low 30s. (you need to meet more poeple i guess)
it seems the direct injection returns worse fuel milage but much better power and this does not seem to jive with your findings about the direct injection being better on fuel.
i never heard of "smaller horses" can you explain how one rated hp can be smaller than another one rated hp?
i do agree a NA horse power engine compared to a turbo'd hp enigne of the same rating does seem slower. i.e. a 1HZ 135 hp compared to a 13BT 135 hp. the 13BT is MUCH faster. seat of the pants is night and day difference.
now, after re-reading the tread again it seems NO lift is needed for the 4BD1T which is a good considering most don't want a lift just to clear the oil pan but then it seems that in other posts it does need a lift...which is correct does this engine need a lift to clear or not?
why would Isuzu go from, according to you, a direct injected engine to a indirect injected engine in the second version (4BD2T)? the idirect is noisier, harder on fuel and less power but the 4BD2T is rated at more hp than the 1st generation 4BD, or am i missing something here?

once again i am not arguing but trying to get my head around the advantage of doing this swap over a tried and true and easier Toyota engine swap...

finally, have you actually completed one of these swaps or is most of the info you have posted book knowledge?

 

[Dougal]

so the engines in this thread are used but the idea is to offer a kit to install brand new engines, what kind of cost are we talking here? and the 4BD1T is availabe as a crate motor still, correct?
after re-reading the thread it seems the 4BD1T is 121 hp and the 4BD2T is 136 hp but cracks heads. according to your statements it seems the 4BD2T (There are also an alarming number of new 4BD2T heads on Ebay, if there's that much demand I'd be steering clear.) is a poor choice of engine due to this problem. (i have yet to see any cracked 1HZ,1HDT heads in Canada but then we have not had these engines here for more than 2 years (other than in the mines and after talking with Brian at ENS they have not seen any cracked heads there either)). in Oz the report back is the 1HZ is cracking heads AFTER installation of a turbo (which leads to a whole different list of questions there)
in actuall fuel milage reports coming back comparing the 3B(indirect injection) with the 13BT (direct injection) the 13BT is getting worse milage by on average 5 mpg. the 2H (indirect injection) compared to the 12HT (direct injection) the same results are being reported. the 1HZ and the HDT are reporting close to the same milage returns, high 20s to very low 30s. (you need to meet more poeple i guess)
it seems the direct injection returns worse fuel milage but much better power and this does not seem to jive with your findings about the direct injection being better on fuel.
i never heard of "smaller horses" can you explain how one rated hp can be smaller than another one rated hp?
i do agree a NA horse power engine compared to a turbo'd hp enigne of the same rating does seem slower. i.e. a 1HZ 135 hp compared to a 13BT 135 hp. the 13BT is MUCH faster. seat of the pants is night and day difference.
now, after re-reading the tread again it seems NO lift is needed for the 4BD1T which is a good considering most don't want a lift just to clear the oil pan but then it seems that in other posts it does need a lift...which is correct does this engine need a lift to clear or not?
why would Isuzu go from, according to you, a direct injected engine to a indirect injected engine in the second version (4BD2T)? the idirect is noisier, harder on fuel and less power but the 4BD2T is rated at more hp than the 1st generation 4BD, or am i missing something here?

once again i am not arguing but trying to get my head around the advantage of doing this swap over a tried and true and easier Toyota engine swap...

finally, have you actually completed one of these swaps or is most of the info you have posted book knowledge?

I have no idea what your agenda is here. But your posts seem to verge on little other than "stirring".
If you have no interest in swapping a 4BD1T into your rig then why are you posting in this thread?

I do not intend to swap an Isuzu into a toyota, my whole point of being here is to help people who want to, I was asked to come and and contribute to this thread. My truck already has an Isuzu 4BD1T conversion. I literally know these engines inside out.

Your knowledge of indirect vs direct injection is poor.
Indirect injection is quieter but less efficient. It results in a quieter engine with less NOx emission through lower peak cylinder temps. It is these same lower peak cylinder temps which cause lower efficiency.

The 4BD2T produces more power because it is factory intercooled, the 4BD1T is not.
So yes, you are missing something.

No the 4BD1T is not available as a crate motor. There is a marine version still in production.

Typical fuel consumption for an 80 or 100 series cruiser is 12-14 litres per 100km. That's less than 8km/L or 22.4 english MPG. In US MPG that's worse still (small gallons).

Automotive HP and Industrial HP are different. In short there is no bullsh*t in industrial figures. Engines must produce rated output power when driving all accessories in the stated conditions. Automotive engines have no such requirement.

 

[crushers]

actually, not in this thread am i stirring the pot. i am interested in other conversions and am quite uniformed since i mostly stick with Toyota engines.

after reading some of your other threads i realised you had a running conversion completed which is nice to know... MANY people come on these forums with little more than some book knowledge. to me that is a waste since real life and book knowledge doesn't always go hand in hand... as i am sure you know.

are you directing your knowledge of indiret vs direct just on the izusu engine experience or a broader range? in my experience with the Toyota engines i have found the opposite to be true... i can only go on my personal experience. (oh and that rattle box IDI 7.3 powersmoke...which BTW gave excellent fuel milage)

why did the 2nd generation go indirect when they intercooled it, to me this sounds like a step backwards in design.

understood about the industrial and the automotive BS figures. interesting to call it "smaller hp"... couldn't understand the term.

yes, the 1HZ is anemic in performance till turbo'd, then it comes alive.

your fuel figures are incorrect when compared to what Canadians are getting with their engines. mind you that might be due to longer stretches of highway or driving habits...

your contributions are appreciated but i do question much of what i read. i take little at face value.

 

[RHINO]

hey crushers, from a yank point of view. i'll try to keep it short.

in general it came down to parts, i would have liked to do a toy diesel but we never got any. i know i can get parts easily in the USA but its always gonna be a wait, nobody has them in stock locally like my isuzu guy does. typically i can walk in get my parts over the counter and walk out. thats a big plus.

longevity and reliability, i dont think there is any difference. you have to remember that all our 4BD1/2 real world engine data is comming fromt he medium duty truck industry where these engines are working there butts off in less than properly cared for 12.000 LB trucks doing everything you can imagine. i would expect nothing less than super tough reliable power for a long long time in my easy going cruiser.

power and economy, well thats pretty much self explanitory. displacement is power, its also economy, find the right balance as most modern engines do and its all pretty much the same.

as far as direct or indirect, i think its gonna be a preference. direct makes more power and economy, but indirect is quieter ,smoother and can rev higher. so its all in what your building. i prefer direct but thats just me.

so i dont know, my use of the isuzu mostly came from the availability, all in all its very similar to toyotas 13BT series engine.

 

[prado t]

Hi Wayne I see what you are trying to get at here, I believe that doing an Isuzu swap is much cheaper. Going by G.S. prices for a 1HZ up to 8000 bucks where you can get the Isuzu for max price 3500 bucks the suzy is a little more industrialized than the toy and do know that people with Head Bandages in VAN
that do no maintenance at all in those overloaded and undermaintained 2-3 ton
cabovers well they go a minimum of 350,000 you see what I am getting at
evrybody is right I think you get more bang for the buck with the suzy but more difficult installation
aaron kuit

 

[Dougal]

why did the 2nd generation go indirect when they intercooled it, to me this sounds like a step backwards in design.

If you read my last post, I addressed that.
It was done to meet emissions.

Find BSFC numbers and indirect injection engines always come out poorly. There has been no exception yet.

your fuel figures are incorrect when compared to what Canadians are getting with their engines. mind you that might be due to longer stretches of highway or driving habits...

The figures I quoted are overall combined, averaged over thousands of km's use. Not the best acheived on a single highway trip.
Urban and offroad use will half your highway fuel economy.
IMO telling someone they'll get 30MPG (even UK gallons) in an 80 or 100 series landcruiser is BS. Sure you can get that if you want to cruise at 80km/h in a straight line for hours on end. But who does.

 

[RHINO]

ok to bram and the others wanting a different adapter route, i just had a krazy simple idea. take off the isuzu bellhousing "ring", and make a simple plate to allow the toyota bellhousing to be bolted on to the block. simple, it will allow the use of the H41-42 and H55 trannies with all the stock toyota clutch starter and everything else. i just might check into this for myself.
i didnt think of this earlier even though i compared the two with my bellhousing thinking i might be able to bolt mine on the isuzu engine. they bolt on the same way just a different pattern.

 

[Dougal]

ok to bram and the others wanting a different adapter route, i just had a krazy simple idea. take off the isuzu bellhousing "ring", and make a simple plate to allow the toyota bellhousing to be bolted on to the block. simple, it will allow the use of the H41-42 and H55 trannies with all the stock toyota clutch starter and everything else. i just might check into this for myself.
i didnt think of this earlier even though i compared the two with my bellhousing thinking i might be able to bolt mine on the isuzu engine. they bolt on the same way just a different pattern.

Get me the measurements and I'll check.
The Isuzu bellhousing bolts to the block with 8 14mm bolts and 2 locating studs.

Here's a pic.

 

[astr]

Get me the measurements and I'll check.
The Isuzu bellhousing bolts to the block with 8 14mm bolts and 2 locating studs.

Here's a pic.

Just to clear up any confusion regarding terminology - there are two castings that bolt between the engine block and the transmission case. The "adapter" that Dougal shows bolts to the engine block and provides the mount for the starter. It is the same part number for both the automatic and manual transmission. Between the "adapter" and the transmission case is the "bell housing" Normally, the bell housing would be considered part of the transmission, but with Isuzu, they are a seperate piece that bolts to both the tranny and "adapter". The bell housings are different for the manual and automatic transmissions.

Having multiple pieces between the engine block and the transmission case provides us multiple options for adapting the 4BD1/2 to TLC: 1) Replace the "adapter" as RHINO suggests. 2) Sandwich an adapter ring between the "adapter" and a TLC bell housing. 3) Use an Isuzu "adapter" and bell housing and sandwich an adapter plate between the Isuzu bell housing and a TLC transmission case. 4) Use the Isuzu "adapter", bell housing and tranny (manual or automatic) and fab an adapter between the output of the tranny and the t-case, similar to what Dougal did.

Crushers:

If your going to quote this thread, at least do it accurately. There have been several other engines besides the Isuzu 4BD1T and 4BD2T discussed here including the Isuzu 4HE1-TC and the Cummins 4BT. Your comment regarding exhaust being on the opposite side to that of the 2F and 3FE applies to the 4HE1-TC and not the 4BD1/2. The need for a lift applies to the 4BT and hasn't been determined for a 4BD1/2.

 

[RHINO]

Crushers:

If your going to quote this thread, at least do it accurately.

now that you bring it up i noticed several holes in his statements as well, but i didnt have time to point it all out when i responded earlier. i think hes just mixing stuff up a bit, there is alot of info and alot of jumping around on this thread. however here's the real deal as it pertains to an FJ55 anyway. i think if one were to set the isuzu engine all the way back to the firewall you wouldnt need a lift, but i decided to hold it off the firewall about 6" and i think it would need a small lift for oilpan clearance if i wasnt already lifted.

oh BTW, to clear things up about my adapter idea, i mean to replace the isuzu "adapter" with a plate to be able to bolt the cruiser bellhousing right on the isuzu block, just as it does the toyota engine. i wish i had thought of this earlier as i would have gone that route.

dougal i have a cruiser bellhousing right here, i'll do the best i can for measurements so you can check that out.

 

[Dougal]

Just to clear up any confusion regarding terminology - there are two castings that bolt between the engine block and the transmission case. The "adapter" that Dougal shows bolts to the engine block and provides the mount for the starter. It is the same part number for both the automatic and manual transmission. Between the "adapter" and the transmission case is the "bell housing" Normally, the bell housing would be considered part of the transmission, but with Isuzu, they are a seperate piece that bolts to both the tranny and "adapter". The bell housings are different for the manual and automatic transmissions.

Our terminology is always going to differ. But to me there is an engine bellhousing and a gearbox bellhousing. That's the engine one I posted up.
Some engines don't have an engine bellhousing, they use flat adaptor plate.

Here is a section through the centreline of the engine.

The flywheel is gold, you can see a slight difference in colour between the block and engine bellhousing.
The gearbox input shaft and support bearing haven't been added yet.

The Isuzu gearboxes use the gearbox bellhousing as part of the front case which includes the input shaft seal. They are removable and swappable, but expect them to dump all the oil on the floor when unbolted.