Dam that is way intolerable than I thought with the liner tolerances , thanks fabmec.
Builds Isuzu 4BD1T Lexus LX450 (Land Cruiser) Build (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Wheelingnoob
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Found out the hard way as well a few decades ago.
Without hunting back through your thread, I assume you would have checked these measurements at the initial install as well? And I assume they were within spec at that time or you wouldn't have proceeded? So is the theory the sleeves moved, or what? What's to stop them from shifting again this time?
- Thread starter
- #1,544
Thank you very much, I searched my manual top and bottom to find a variance between sleeves. I found nothing in the manual.
Your response clarifies a great deal.
I will re measure the sleeves tomorrow.
- Thread starter
- #1,545
Nope it was a total mess up on my part. I bottomed them out (so I thought) and called it good. Being my first sleeve block I just did not grasp the magnitude of it.
So totally my mistake.
If the protrusion is true & correct, and the head is tight, they cannot move. They will move if the engine is turned with the head off, if they are loose in the block.
Have a look at this pdf > http://www.dieselclass.com/Engine Files/Diesel Engine Cylinder Blocks 02-02.pdf.
It gives you some good background on some of the questions you have asked recently and will help you figure out if the counterbore is useable or not.
It gives you some good background on some of the questions you have asked recently and will help you figure out if the counterbore is useable or not.
fabmec
This is some great information you have posted and many here will benefit from it. My engine and parts are are at the machinist now, and I will start assembly soon, so timing is good.
This is some great information you have posted and many here will benefit from it. My engine and parts are are at the machinist now, and I will start assembly soon, so timing is good.
This is one variation of counterbore cutter for in frame repairs. Correct size shims must be available before doing this type of activity. http://klineind.com/documents/KL50000-200.pdf
- Thread starter
- #1,550
OK so here is each sleeve measured in 4 places, I can't do any more due to the adjacent sleeves.
They are all consistent other than #3 and part of #1. I don't see how a shim would help in this case. I have used my press tool on each to ensure they are the pressed fully down into place.
The one that worries me is #3 since it is .03mm different across its face.
Is this variance enough to cause issues? How would I get any better with new sleeves?
They are all consistent other than #3 and part of #1. I don't see how a shim would help in this case. I have used my press tool on each to ensure they are the pressed fully down into place.
The one that worries me is #3 since it is .03mm different across its face.
Is this variance enough to cause issues? How would I get any better with new sleeves?
Recheck without your press tool in place. Also place straight edge across tops and see if you have similar readings. You may have localised issues with deck flatness ie been really hot in past or issues with foreign matter or wear of couterbore lip on 1 & 3
- Thread starter
- #1,552
I did not have the press in place when I measured. I just tried to get #3 flatter with it then took it off and re measured. It was the same pre and post. If I lay a straightedge front to back on the deck of the block beside the liners is flat I can not fit a .04mm feeler anywhere under it. That is the smallest feeler I have found.
If I lay my straightedge across the sleeves and checked with a .04mm feeler. It will allow one through on #2 sleeve where it is closest to #1 sleeve. But that is the only spot of variance.
This engine did get extremely hot a few times 240f+. I don't think I had any foreign matter in the seats for the sleeves, I cleaned them well before assembly.
I'm thinking my measurements are indication I need to pull the liners on at least #1-3.
If I lay my straightedge across the sleeves and checked with a .04mm feeler. It will allow one through on #2 sleeve where it is closest to #1 sleeve. But that is the only spot of variance.
This engine did get extremely hot a few times 240f+. I don't think I had any foreign matter in the seats for the sleeves, I cleaned them well before assembly.
I'm thinking my measurements are indication I need to pull the liners on at least #1-3.
Yes thats what I would do 1&3 and check the counterbore there may be contact marks where it is seated. The mark should be even all the way round . I've got some pictures in a book somewhere I'll see if i can dig out tonight. Then check the counterbore depth and the sleeve flange to see how far it should be protruding.
- Thread starter
- #1,554
OK thanks for the wonderful information! I really appreciate it!
I'll pull the sleeves Saturday and get some more information.
Yes .04mm = 1.6 thou = outside spec = bad
Managed to find that book so below are some examples from an independent lab where an analysis was done on various cylinders and cylinder components. (Note: The color has been removed from these photographs for better contrast in the illustrations)
The above illustration shows the underside or contact side of a cylinder liner flange. Note the “even” and consistent seating pattern.
The above illustration shows the underside or contact side of a cylinder liner flange. You can see where the seating pattern is uneven. This is due to inconsistent or out of spec liner protrusion. This improper liner protrusion resulted in a cracked liner flange.
The above photo (under high magnification) shows the presence of compressed “media”. After discussions with the engine owner we found out that the block was recently replaced. They had purchased it from a salvage yard that had media blasted (shot blasted). After material analysis was completed the embedded particles were determine to be a different material than the liner itself. The engine owner had not cleaned the media blasted block in a hot tank or steamer to remove debris from the block. When installing the cylinder liners, they had trapped media under the flange. This resulted in improper liner protrusion and a cracked liner flange. This is an extreme case, but can happen with any foreign debris from steel shot to sand to dirt. This is why it is crucial when assembling an engine to keep it clean!
The above magnified photo shows heavy striations on the underside of the flange. Note the pattern is opposite the machine marks of the liner itself. These striations were caused due to the engines liner seating surface being aggressively machined utilizing a hand operation. In this case a high speed abrasive surface preparation disc. The uneven pattern caused such inconsistencies to where the liner flange was completely snapped form the liner (see below). Although this is a picture of a wet sleeve, it also happens with dry sleeves too.
The above illustration shows the underside or contact side of a cylinder liner flange. Note the “even” and consistent seating pattern.
The above illustration shows the underside or contact side of a cylinder liner flange. You can see where the seating pattern is uneven. This is due to inconsistent or out of spec liner protrusion. This improper liner protrusion resulted in a cracked liner flange.
The above photo (under high magnification) shows the presence of compressed “media”. After discussions with the engine owner we found out that the block was recently replaced. They had purchased it from a salvage yard that had media blasted (shot blasted). After material analysis was completed the embedded particles were determine to be a different material than the liner itself. The engine owner had not cleaned the media blasted block in a hot tank or steamer to remove debris from the block. When installing the cylinder liners, they had trapped media under the flange. This resulted in improper liner protrusion and a cracked liner flange. This is an extreme case, but can happen with any foreign debris from steel shot to sand to dirt. This is why it is crucial when assembling an engine to keep it clean!
The above magnified photo shows heavy striations on the underside of the flange. Note the pattern is opposite the machine marks of the liner itself. These striations were caused due to the engines liner seating surface being aggressively machined utilizing a hand operation. In this case a high speed abrasive surface preparation disc. The uneven pattern caused such inconsistencies to where the liner flange was completely snapped form the liner (see below). Although this is a picture of a wet sleeve, it also happens with dry sleeves too.
- Thread starter
- #1,557
That's great! Going to be intresting to see what I find when I pull the sleeves.
The outcome of this weekend my dictate where and if I go with this engine.
The outcome of this weekend my dictate where and if I go with this engine.
The last couple of pages have a lot of good information for many of us who have sleeved engines. Thanks
Jeremy, hope this goes well over the weekend.
Jeremy, hope this goes well over the weekend.
Great info from down under!
- Thread starter
- #1,560
Well today I worked on getting the sleeves out of the engine. In the truck. No go the crank is totally preventing me from getting the tool in to the bottom. of the sleeves.
If the motor comes out for this it's not going back in. So tomorrow the disassembly of the truck starts to remove the drive train. What goes back in is unclear but I'm way past the line in the sand I drew for it.
If the motor comes out for this it's not going back in. So tomorrow the disassembly of the truck starts to remove the drive train. What goes back in is unclear but I'm way past the line in the sand I drew for it.
