Is this a bad wheel bearing?

[mudgudgeon]

A rarely used (??forgotten) trick to tighten up the fit on a worn a spindle IME is to "stake" the worn segment of the tube

Great button it up now, fix it later solution IMO.
Given the price of parts, a new spindle would be getting ordered ASAP ( And, yeah, i know, you could probably run it like that for years, and bilt's nuns will all make it home safe)

 

[mudgudgeon]

If you feel looseness and movement ( or tonk, tonk) while rocking it from 6 to 12, then it's a solid indication is wheel bearings.

If there's no play from 6 - 12 (wheel bearings ok) but there is play rocking it from 3 & 9, then look at tie rod ends, knuckle studs etc

Takes 30 minutes per side to pull flanges, retorque wheel bearings, and button it all up again. Then retest.
If you know bearing torque is good, and you still have play, then start rolling out the other things.

With movement like you have in the video, steering will most likely be vague and sloppy.
You may feel the cruiser wandering all over the road.
You may feel a pulse feeding back through the brake pedal and steering under light braking.
You may feel a rumble when cornering.

Some of these things sneak up on you so you get used to them as they get worse.

 

[JamesStuart11]

Is this your daily?

Yes

 

[JamesStuart11]

Assuming the lug nuts are tight then yes, it seems that bearing is loose.
Any noise or other adverse symptoms while driving?

Just rattling when hitting bumps. I heard it two weeks ago but thought it was my bike rack. Then I took of the rack for a ski trip and it was still happening so I tried to find the sound.

 

[JamesStuart11]

This could be:

Worn out trunnion bearings
Loose steering knuckle nuts (studs)
Loose wheel bearings
Loose lug nuts

Are the bearings BAD?
Not necessarily. The only way to confirm for sure is to pull it apart and inspect them.
You can just tighten them to spec and hope that they are OK or you'll lock up a dry and munched wheel bearing in about 4 miles.
(35 LB-FT on the inner nut while rotating, the 45 LB-FT on the outer nut after you have installed the locking washer, then bend over the tab in the right places)

You can plan for a full front knuckle rebuild and do it ASAP.

You MUST check the torque on the knuckle studs ASAP or you'll kill a busload of Kindergartners with a half a bus of Nuns on board. (71 LB-FT)

Depends on your maintenance history.

You need to inspect properly and address it either way. But you can still probably drive it for another 30K miles just because. I think that's what my PO did before I bought mine. This is not proper legal advise and it is worth exactly what you paid me for it. Nothing. (That was my legal disclaimer)

Thanks for the advice, I'll check it out when I get home. Don't worry I won't be driving it until I fix it.

 

[JamesStuart11]

My thread when my wheel bearing was shot. Check out my similar video down the thread. Wound up having a shop do both wheel bearings and knuckles.

Another "what's this noise" thread

Hey all, sorry to bring up another one of these, but I feel like a moron riding around with this noise. Just started a day or two ago, with no recent maintenance done that would've affected it (I did replace window trim moulding finally, but doubt that messed up my driveline). As a starting...

forum.ih8mud.com

Do you think doing it myself would be too hard. I do all my own maintance and the basics but nothing ever this intricate.

 

[JamesStuart11]

Kinda sounds like the head gasket is going out, too. AmIright?

The headgasket on the engine? It's not running how can you tell.

 

[JamesStuart11]

On top of all the above, if it's due to loose wheel bearing preload that means the bearing has been rocking in and out (as in the OP's demonstration) on the spindle as the vehicle was being driven.

What this can do is wear/deform the spindle tube (usually where the outer bearing is mounted) causing a loose fit of the bearing on the spindle. IME even a new bearing won't stay tight with proper (or higher) preload if the spindle tube OD has a step worn into it.

The step is usually found running between 3 and 9 O'clock on the underside of the tube. If the bearing was really loose then the inner race can not only rock but also spin on the tube and the whole OD can become worn, but it's usually worse on the underside of the tube IME.

The by-the-book fix is to buy a new spindle (or find a good condition used part).

A rarely used (??forgotten) trick to tighten up the fit on a worn a spindle IME is to "stake" the worn segment of the tube with a few dozen hits from a hardened punch. This forms mini moon craters, a depression in the center with metal around the rim that has been pushed up. Enough of those and you've effectively increased the OD of the tube.

So the process is to make a bunch of dings in the low segment evenly spaced, slip on a new outer bearing, check for slop, hit the spindle more, check again, keep doing this until the bearing fits snugly on the spindle and doesn't rock. If you go too far and can't get the bearing on the spindle just take emory cloth and sand the tube (dings) down a bit until the bearing fits. I did this to one of my 80's ~100,000 miles ago, still running those same spindles and bearings. Having said that, with larger tires and hard off-road driving this hack may be a temp fix??

FWIW

So check out the spindle and go from there, right?

 

[JamesStuart11]

If you feel looseness and movement ( or tonk, tonk) while rocking it from 6 to 12, then it's a solid indication is wheel bearings.

If there's no play from 6 - 12 (wheel bearings ok) but there is play rocking it from 3 & 9, then look at tie rod ends, knuckle studs etc

Takes 30 minutes per side to pull flanges, retorque wheel bearings, and button it all up again. Then retest.
If you know bearing torque is good, and you still have play, then start rolling out the other things.

With movement like you have in the video, steering will most likely be vague and sloppy.
You may feel the cruiser wandering all over the road.
You may feel a pulse feeding back through the brake pedal and steering under light braking.
You may feel a rumble when cornering.

Some of these things sneak up on you so you get used to them as they get worse.

There is only tonk tonk from 6 and 12. But yes 3 and 9 does have some slop even though it doesnt go tonk tonk and it loves to wander especially on the highway. I just though thats how it drives on a 3in lift and 35in m/ts. Is there a way to fix that?

 

[Navyator]

Do you think doing it myself would be too hard. I do all my own maintance and the basics but nothing ever this intricate.

Honestly, I don’t have the expertise to guide you. If it’s your daily driver and you have the budget I’d probably schedule someone to get everything together and fix it as efficiently as possible.

If i had another car to drive and the space/tools, I would’ve probably done the work myself so I could learn something new. Unfortunately that comes with the risk of screwing it up or delaying due to poor planning or unforeseen issues.

That’s assuming the wheel bearing is the problem in the first place

 

[jpoole]

Takes 30 minutes per side to pull flanges, retorque wheel bearings, and button it all up again. Then retest.
If you know bearing torque is good, and you still have play, then start rolling out the other things.

I know you've gotten a lot of feedback and are learning but this is where you should focus in my opinion. Get the bearings tight and then evaluate any further issues from there. Loose wheel bearings are actually pretty common on these in part because the procedure for setting preload in the factory service manual isn't very good and can lead to issues.

If you don't know the history of the rig and it's likely that the front axle hasn't been serviced in a while then you should start planning for a full service. This is a regular maintenance item and I think it's a great DIY project for someone who knows the basics like how to change oil and a tire, etc.. It's messy and will take you all day, or two days, the first time but even as a beginner you may do a better job than a hired wrench if you pay attention to detail as you proceed. I personally don't like to hire work like this out because I prefer to know that every fastener was torqued properly and everything replaced that needed it, etc. You can't be certain of quality work from a lot of shops/wrenches out there.

Once the wheel bearings are tight you may still have issues to deal with. You can get an IR thermometer to monitor hub temps on all 4 wheels and you may see a hub run warmer than the others if it has bad bearings. Simply spinning the wheel while it's in the air and listening for noise/rumble may also help diagnose a bearing if it's bad enough. You can repeat your wobble/slack tests and diagnose worn trunion/kingpin bearings, etc. once the wheel bearings are tight as well. You can also have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while the front tires are on the ground while you feel/inspect below for slack in steering connections, look for cracks in the frame, etc. You can replace suspension bushings, etc. to tighten things up as well. This is all too much information though for where you are and for now just focus on getting the front bearings tight and then go from there.

You also need to get a plan in place for all of the 80s regular maintenance needs from fluid changes to axle service to knuckle and driveshaft greasing. I'd DIY all of that as doing maintenance is a great way to stay current on general condition and issues your 80 may have and helps you operate it with more confidence, esp. if you ever go off road.

You can read up on how to set the preload on the front wheel bearings by dropping this into Google:

wheel bearing torque site:forum.ih8mud.com​

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You'll need the correct, large socket and a torque wrench then set the inner nut to 30-40 pounds before then tightening down the outer lock nut.

There are a few tricks to getting the flanges off but I have good luck unscrewing the flange nuts until they are almost off of the studs and then hitting the side of the flange with a hammer until the cone washers pop loose. Keeping the nuts on the studs helps avoid cone washers flying away. It usually doesn't take much hammering on the side of the flange near the stud (but not on the stud) to knock each cone washer loose.​

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You may want to get new star washers before you retorque the bearings. The old star washers are typically reuseable but can get beat up on removal and new ones can make things easier for a newby. If you have to order the large socket anyway you can get a handful of star washers for future use. This is what they look like: Spindle Lock Washer (Star) - Fits 9/1975 - 2007 All Disc Brake Models (2 Required per Axle) (FA42025) - https://cruiserteq.com/spindle-lock-washer-star-fits-9-1975-2007-all-disc-brake-models-2-required-per-axle-fa42025/​

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[JamesStuart11]

I know you've gotten a lot of feedback and are learning but this is where you should focus in my opinion. Get the bearings tight and then evaluate any further issues from there. Loose wheel bearings are actually pretty common on these in part because the procedure for setting preload in the factory service manual isn't very good and can lead to issues.

If you don't know the history of the rig and it's likely that the front axle hasn't been serviced in a while then you should start planning for a full service. This is a regular maintenance item and I think it's a great DIY project for someone who knows the basics like how to change oil and a tire, etc.. It's messy and will take you all day, or two days, the first time but even as a beginner you may do a better job than a hired wrench if you pay attention to detail as you proceed. I personally don't like to hire work like this out because I prefer to know that every fastener was torqued properly and everything replaced that needed it, etc. You can't be certain of quality work from a lot of shops/wrenches out there.

Once the wheel bearings are tight you may still have issues to deal with. You can get an IR thermometer to monitor hub temps on all 4 wheels and you may see a hub run warmer than the others if it has bad bearings. Simply spinning the wheel while it's in the air and listening for noise/rumble may also help diagnose a bearing if it's bad enough. You can repeat your wobble/slack tests and diagnose worn trunion/kingpin bearings, etc. once the wheel bearings are tight as well. You can also have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while the front tires are on the ground while you feel/inspect below for slack in steering connections, look for cracks in the frame, etc. You can replace suspension bushings, etc. to tighten things up as well. This is all too much information though for where you are and for now just focus on getting the front bearings tight and then go from there.

You also need to get a plan in place for all of the 80s regular maintenance needs from fluid changes to axle service to knuckle and driveshaft greasing. I'd DIY all of that as doing maintenance is a great way to stay current on general condition and issues your 80 may have and helps you operate it with more confidence, esp. if you ever go off road.

You can read up on how to set the preload on the front wheel bearings by dropping this into Google:

wheel bearing torque site:forum.ih8mud.com​

​

You'll need the correct, large socket and a torque wrench then set the inner nut to 30-40 pounds before then tightening down the outer lock nut.

There are a few tricks to getting the flanges off but I have good luck unscrewing the flange nuts until they are almost off of the studs and then hitting the side of the flange with a hammer until the cone washers pop loose. Keeping the nuts on the studs helps avoid cone washers flying away. It usually doesn't take much hammering on the side of the flange near the stud (but not on the stud) to knock each cone washer loose.​

​

You may want to get new star washers before you retorque the bearings. The old star washers are typically reuseable but can get beat up on removal and new ones can make things easier for a newby. If you have to order the large socket anyway you can get a handful of star washers for future use. This is what they look like: Spindle Lock Washer (Star) - Fits 9/1975 - 2007 All Disc Brake Models (2 Required per Axle) (FA42025) - https://cruiserteq.com/spindle-lock-washer-star-fits-9-1975-2007-all-disc-brake-models-2-required-per-axle-fa42025/​

​

​

Thanks a lot man. Definitely gonna start with the torquing the bearings.

What do you mean by full axle service? Obviously diff fluid. But what else? Like seals and stuff or a full knuckle rebuild?

 

[jpoole]

There's a lot of good info out there about what's involved with an axle service so I'm going to try to keep it brief here. My version of a front axle service is to get the rebuild kit from Cruiser Outfitters which includes the seals and trunion/kingpin bearings and then get bearing grease and moly grease (moly is for the cvs/birfs). Cruiser Outfitters sends a handy guide to the rebuild process that includes the various torque specs that you need during reassembly. I typically am going to change axle lube at the same time as well but you don't have to if you work on one end of the axle at a time and just lift that end as the oil will pool on the other end of the axle. I also typically do one side at a time and don't drive until both sides are done, once I start.

The axle "rebuild" essentials are basically cleaning out all of the old grease for the wheel bearings and the CV joints (CVs = birfield joints, same thing) and then when it's all clean you put in new grease, change the seals and change the trunion/kingpin bearings. The trunion/kingpins may not be strictly required but I find they wear a good bit in an 80 so always replace them while in there. If you notice wear on the wheel bearings you change them out also and if your cvs/birfields are showing wear and clicking on turns you replace those as well. Some folks may install new studs and nuts for the flanges and/or the caps on the knuckles/steering arms but I only do that if they are really old or showing issues/wear. Some folks may need to polish up the balls on the axles (if they are corroded) to help the seals work better. Some folks may find excess wear on the drive flanges (where the cv/birfield splines mate to the flange) and need to replace those, etc. The regular maintenance is usually just seals, grease and trunion/kingpin bearings though.

Rear axle service is easier but needed periodically also. I run the rear wheel bearings in axle oil by virtue of the inner oil seal being removed and not reinstalled so I don't service the rears as often as I would if the bearings were in grease and I just keep an eye out for slack in the bearings or leaking.

When you are in the front or rear hubs servicing them a big part of the work is cleaning everything and making sure that the surfaces that the seals run on are smooth and not grooved so that the seals work. It's also a good time to change brake pads, grease brake pad slide pins, etc. on the calipers and to inspect rotors and other brake hardware. Some folks go all out and will repaint hubs/etc. while they are clean but I typically don't get them that clean or take the time unless there is relevant corrosion at play.

Here's a front axle rebuild video:

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There are plenty of other 80 specific videos and write-ups on front axle service online and this forum. A front axle service is a right of passage in the life of a 4wd owner in my opinion and worth taking your time on and getting it right. Ideally you can give yourself the time to stop and order parts if you run into issues or go back in to redo something if you make a mistake. How the front axle works, in particular how drive power gets to the hubs and the fluids all stay in the right place, etc. probably won't really make sense until you do one of these rebuilds yourself and see how it all goes together. Your first time or two will be slower and then you'll be able to knock out the work much more quickly in the future and you'll be better able to diagnose issues in the front axle/etc. should they ever come up.

 

[Kernal]

"Great button it up now, fix it later solution"

That's exactly what I intended to do when I staked a set of spindles, but here we are, over 10 years and 100,000 miles later and those parts in my 96 model refuse to die. Still running the same spindles and bearings, tight as a drum, smooth as buttah driving down the road.

That 80 however runs about stock size tires and doesn't go off-road so can't say how long that fix might last with rougher use.

 

[Rusty Marlin]

The headgasket on the engine? It's not running how can you tell.

They are messing with you. That's the "go to" answer to mess with the newbies for any little noise. Pay no attention.
Unless you've got coolant in your oil or running out the tail pipe, then pay attention.

 

[Marco Lau]

Head gasket jokes were originated from 3F-E guys. Now i am just at a lost and apparently 1FZ guys would also use their own jokes to make fun of newbie on here.
Pathetic indeed.