Interesting thoughts from Toyota regarding the 250 in this week’s Automotive News

[Cortez the Killer]

Very true. IME toyota owners are some of the worst offenders about getting defensive if you criticize toyota vehicles.
Say the 4Runner is outdated powertrain and interior and they will scream about reliability (when most people really aren’t keeping them long enough as first or second owners for it it matter)
Say the Tacoma still has drum brakes and they will somehow try and explain how drum brakes are actually better
Deep down I think toyota owners of some of these popular offroad model’s in particular know deep down they overpaid for a vehicle that is lower quality than some other vehicles in the price category in the name of “reliability” when it probably won’t matter much in the time span they own the vehicle.

If you need a chuckle, go over to one of the Tacoma boards. They are crucifying the new Tacoma, which is in every measurable way a much better truck and they hate it. They love the drum brakes and mini van motor paired up with one of the clunkiest transmissions Toyota has ever made, made complete with disgusting fuel economy (at least the 3.5, the 2.7 does better).

Toyota is about to deliver the best Tacoma ever, and they cant see it.

 

[TWILLY]

Toyota is about to deliver the best Tacoma ever, and they cant see it.

Sounds eerily familiar.

 

[Hiluxforever]

If you need a chuckle, go over to one of the Tacoma boards. They are crucifying the new Tacoma, which is in every measurable way a much better truck and they hate it. They love the drum brakes and mini van motor paired up with one of the clunkiest transmissions Toyota has ever made, made complete with disgusting fuel economy (at least the 3.5, the 2.7 does better).

Toyota is about to deliver the best Tacoma ever, and they cant see it.

Toyota 2.4 4 bangers are some of the best motors Toyota has made and because they aren't glamorous people forget. 22R/E and 2RZ were OG

 

[m4hk33]

The problem with the domestics is that they've increased pricing too much over the last 3 years, along with the increased interest rates. They got greedy plain and simple and I laugh when I drive past their lots overflowing with inventory.

I had a brand new 2021 Rubicon 4 door that I bought new and then sold last year. Now that same vehicle is $20k CDN higher in just 2 1/2 years. And they want $20-30k markups on a 392. It's criminal what they're asking nowadays and I refuse to pay it. I'm not sure who's paying these prices but I just don't see how they can continue to go up given the current economic environment.

I'd love a 392, but I'm happy to wait for a LC250 or the GX550 instead.

i agree to an extent the domestics have gone up significantly, but when the LX600 averageing 120k, and Sequoia SR5's are well into the 70's, Toyota is in the same boat. At least with the domestics, spending a 100k can at least get you a vehicle that has self drive.

Personally, I am looking at importing something from the GCC, Y61's just became eligible and LC100's grow on trees.

 

[m4hk33]

If you need a chuckle, go over to one of the Tacoma boards. They are crucifying the new Tacoma, which is in every measurable way a much better truck and they hate it. They love the drum brakes and mini van motor paired up with one of the clunkiest transmissions Toyota has ever made, made complete with disgusting fuel economy (at least the 3.5, the 2.7 does better).

Toyota is about to deliver the best Tacoma ever, and they cant see it.

We shall see. None of this s*** has actually hit the market yet. I was all in on the Sequioa at first until seeing how poorly designed the cargo area was. The LC looks to address this issue, but, Toyota Japan can't seem to figure its production issues. The Tacoma looks cool. I just think all of this stuff needs to get out there before one can really make a definitive statement either way.

At this point, i think the Tundra Limited with Factory 3 inch lift is best value proposition of the who lot.

 

[jayp2]

Toyota 2.4 4 bangers are some of the best motors Toyota has made and because they aren't glamorous people forget. 22R/E and 2RZ were OG

I had an 80's long bed 4x4 truck with a 22R in it that used to regularly get 25mpg

Best toyota truck I ever owned......damn thing just ran

 

[Hiluxforever]

I had an 80's long bed 4x4 truck with a 22R in it that used to regularly get 25mpg

Best toyota truck I ever owned......damn thing just ran

Yeah, those are my sentiments. They were slower than molasses, especially the carbed engines. The port injected 22RE was a little better and I really feel the 2RZ/3RZ fixed that.
My 5 lug Tacoma would get between 26-28 on the highway and 24-26 in town. If I loaded it right I could get over 1700 lbs in it. Just keep the real heavy stuff in front of the rear axle. Great little work trucks

 

[NTTD]

Dont hold your breath

I'm sure there will be limited offerings of accessories but the only thing that drives that development is sales

The 5-10k units that Toyota is going to sell annually before it tanks and gets pulled from the US market <again> arent enough to drive companies to develop them

Its apples and peas comparison with the tacoma which sells huge numbers of units every year

I think you're missing the beauty of the combined platform. With consolidation more parts will work with more vehicles with little to no modification, just some hardware changes.

We saw this with the FJC. Here was a brand new model, yet because it was built on a shared platform we saw lift kits right away. They were ready to go as the vehicles were hitting the market.

It also wasn't that long until we saw bumpers and other accessories that matched the body. As mentioned earlier with modern manufacturing processes and techniques the speed of design to usable product is greatly reduced further speeding up the process.

No, I’m not joking. I just took a look at my local Ford dealer’s inventory. They’ve got 700 vehicles in stock.

Yeah but many aren't selling hence the glut.
Supply is catching up but woah, sticker shock.

The problem with the domestics is that they've increased pricing too much over the last 3 years, along with the increased interest rates. They got greedy plain and simple and I laugh when I drive past their lots overflowing with inventory.

I had a brand new 2021 Rubicon 4 door that I bought new and then sold last year. Now that same vehicle is $20k CDN higher in just 2 1/2 years. And they want $20-30k markups on a 392. It's criminal what they're asking nowadays and I refuse to pay it. I'm not sure who's paying these prices but I just don't see how they can continue to go up given the current economic environment.

I'd love a 392, but I'm happy to wait for a LC250 or the GX550 instead.

It's tough for us looking for work trucks, the "stripped down" ones start close to 60k now. Until recently if they have anything in stock it's the fancy "I'm a rich rancher" kind of truck. Same with Chevy and Ram. MSRP has climbed so much that a base model 1500 now costs a tiny bit less than a fully optioned 2500 from just a few years before.

I've got dealers telling me "what a great deal" a 58k stripped 1500 is, I guess because they finally dropped the markup.

 

[elbarto]

. I was all in on the Sequioa at first until seeing how poorly designed the cargo area was. The LC looks to address this issue

What do you mean by this?

 

[MountaineerLC]

What do you mean by this?

The Sequoia has very limited cargo room for a vehicle of its size due to the hybrid battery and 3rd row seat design. The LC 250 doesn't suffer from this thankfully.

 

[elbarto]

Gotcha. I assume that’s because it (GX or LC) has the hybrid or 3rd row, but not both at the same time.

I compared photos of the cargo area of the GX with the 3row and 2row, the cargo floor of the 3row version is definitely elevated like the hybrid LC.

 

[Jetboy]

A 3d row would be completely acceptable to me in a hybrid if if doesn't fold into the floor. There's no reason it needs to. Just make it easily removed and the problem is solved. Sell it as an aftermarket product and just have the hard points for installation in all of them. Then anyone who wants to add the 3rd row can go spend $1500 or whatever it costs at a dealer to buy it just like any other accessory.

I'd much prefer better battery packaging. There's a few places that a small 1.8kwh battery can be re-configured to fit. Easiest of which would be to move the spare tire to the rear door and put it underneath where the spare is. I think 99% of buyers would choose that over the current configuration. In the trucks and Sequoia models there's plenty of room to put it under the body between frame rails. Or - put it under the middle row. Just like the Tundra. Or even under the front seats. Lots of dead space there too.

 

[jayp2]

I think you're missing the beauty of the combined platform. With consolidation more parts will work with more vehicles with little to no modification, just some hardware changes.

I see an overly complicated unnecessarily bloated vehicle.

I'd take my 80's 4x4 with the 22R or a 76 or troopie all day/every day over the 250

 

[stonepa]

We've had 3 different hybrids and not one of them got even 1 mpg better than it's gasser equivalent. One, a Subaru, got WORSE mileage and the only reason they were selling any was that there was a federal subsidy for them. And as for build quality, one of my Tacomas was built in Mexico and it had excellent fit and finish. The problem was all in the design of the transmission that could never decide what gear it wanted me to be in. That was a Toyota problem, not a Mexico problem.

Really depends on why they are a hybrid. The Subaru Crosstrek hybrid, like the Tundra and Sequoia, was only there for more power, not fuel mileage. But the hybrid in the RAV4, Highlander, and Sienna are tuned for fuel efficiency and they are a huge real world improvement over the equivalent non-hybrid.

 

[stonepa]

60 series? You talking about that plush "Mall Cruiser" with factory AC?! Heck the later models along with "ruining" the headlights had POWER WINDOWS AND MIRRORS!!!

There hasn't been a "real" Land Cruiser wagon since the 55. Everyone knows that!

Amen to that. And I bought them new.

 

[stonepa]

I think you might want to look again. Ford and GM both have 100+ days of inventory across most of the lineup. Ram and Jeep are even more. Honda, Kia, and Toyota are the only ones left with really low supplies. That's why Toyota is losing market share so fast - everyone else is back to full lots, overfull in many cases. And not all Toyotas are selling really fast. The 4Runner as of August has 76 days of inventory on dealer lots. The models in shortest supply are Camry, Highlander, Sienna, Corolla, Rav4.

GM is currently offering 0% financing on trucks. It's easy to see why Toyota is losing a lot of sales when you can't even test drive a Toyota and you can get $10-15k off MSRP on a domestic truck.

Where do you live? Definitely not see any of this around here. The 3 Toyota dealers are barren on all new inventory, with maybe 3 new vehicles and 2 are Tacoma SRs. Everything on their dealer inventory is listed as ‘inbound’ not ‘in stock’.

Local Chevy dealer only has a few high trim Silverados, Blazers, and Trailblazers. No suburbans or Tahoes. No HD trucks without a utility box type bed.

Ford and Ram have lots of trucks. RAM is full of Wagoneers and Jeeps.

 

[jayp2]

Really depends on why they are a hybrid. The Subaru Crosstrek hybrid, like the Tundra and Sequoia, was only there for more power, not fuel mileage. But the hybrid in the RAV4, Highlander, and Sienna are tuned for fuel efficiency and they are a huge real world improvement over the equivalent non-hybrid.

That depends on how you measure/quantify "huge, real world improvement".

Added up front expense of thousands of $$$ which takes a considerable portion of useable life of vehicle to recoup over cost of fuel for non hybrid

Added complexity and cost to maintain/repair when there IS a problem.

Cost/complexity of recycling batteries/vehicles when they reach end of serviceable life

We could go on and on.

I do most all of my own work/maint of my vehicles and the last thing I want is a hybrid/electric vehicle

 

[stonepa]

That depends on how you measure/quantify "huge, real world improvement".

Added up front expense of thousands of $$$ which takes a considerable portion of useable life of vehicle to recoup over cost of fuel for non hybrid

Added complexity and cost to maintain/repair when there IS a problem.

Cost/complexity of recycling batteries/vehicles when they reach end of serviceable life

We could go on and on.

I do most all of my own work/maint of my vehicles and the last thing I want is a hybrid/electric vehicle

Not sure about the added complexity or maintenance as an impact. In my house. We have 3 Lexus RX hybrids. One has over 350k miles. Another over 220k miles. Handed from my wife to my kids. Absolutely zero issues over the lifespan of the vehicles.

My sense is, other than the initial cost, there is no downside .

 

[NTTD]

I see an overly complicated unnecessarily bloated vehicle.

I'd take my 80's 4x4 with the 22R or a 76 or troopie all day/every day over the 250

There's no reason a person can't continue to own one. But for most everyone else there's better options out there.

Obviously that ship sailed long ago, in this modern world we're just not going to get a simple, naturally aspirated, underpowered, 4cyl from anyone.
While that may satisfy a few niche users that's not what most would want. It's a different world, engine tech has progressed so far we (the collective "we") expect way more power and performance from a small 4cyl, especially when coupled with an electric motor.. While the 22R is a true legend, it just doesn't compare to what can be made now.
Hardly anyone want's their truck's performance to have more in common with a tractor than a modern vehicle.

While I "miss" my '85 4Runner and often wish I hadn't sold her Every once and a while when passing a big rig going up a pass I remember the not so good parts. Crawling up the pass in 3rd going 45mph, getting passed by or being an obstacle to the big rigs. I surely don't miss that and couldn't see myself going back.

Sure if I had all the money and space to keep multiple vehicles it'd be nice to have an old 4cyl Toy with a Marlin that could crawl anywhere. For me RN I want my 4X4 to be my daily driver, to get me over the pass or out to the desert in a timely manner AND be able to wheel when I get there. I have pretty much all of that with my '80 but I want good mileage too now.

 

[Jetboy]

Where do you live? Definitely not see any of this around here. The 3 Toyota dealers are barren on all new inventory, with maybe 3 new vehicles and 2 are Tacoma SRs. Everything on their dealer inventory is listed as ‘inbound’ not ‘in stock’.

Local Chevy dealer only has a few high trim Silverados, Blazers, and Trailblazers. No suburbans or Tahoes. No HD trucks without a utility box type bed.

Ford and Ram have lots of trucks. RAM is full of Wagoneers and Jeeps.

I'm in Alaska right now. Dealers here that I drive by on my way to work are using overflow parking in nearby lots with trucks. All the domestic brands. Toyota has very little though.

The info from August shows Ford at 106 days of inventory, GM at 97 days, and Toyota at 13 in Alaska. Ram looks like about 120. Nationwide - Ford is 97 days, Toyota 42, and GM is 61. Honda is still very low at 32 days. Average historically is about 60 days. Domestics are still well in excess of average. And the discounts are pretty big on some of them. On the other extreme, Subaru is only at 11 days inventory, Kia is 17, Honda is 22.

What's not obvious from the days inventory is that it's skewed by the longer time to sell. So, days of inventory is up, but actual inventory is still way down. Across the industry there was typically about 2 million new cars in inventory nationwide and now there's more like 1 million. The high days in inventory seems to suggest to me that the sales have fallen off a cliff. Probably due to high price inflation and high interest rates. Used inventory at new brand dealerships is about the same as it always was.

As an example Toyota pre-covid usually had around 150k new cars on lots nation wide. Now they're about 50k. Subaru only has about 7k vs a normal inventory of 60-70k. Ford was normally sitting on 400k in inventory and now is about 130k.

Overall - the story I see from this is that sales are tanking more than inventory is catching up. But what I see with my eyes locally is a pile of trucks overflowing lots.