Interesting thoughts from Toyota regarding the 250 in this week’s Automotive News

[NinjahGoose]

Dont hold your breath

I'm sure there will be limited offerings of accessories but the only thing that drives that development is sales

The 5-10k units that Toyota is going to sell annually before it tanks and gets pulled from the US market <again> arent enough to drive companies to develop them

Its apples and peas comparison with the tacoma which sells huge numbers of units every year

You’re obviously very personally offended by the new LC. You mentioned in your previous post that you want the LC to compete with a Bronco. You do realize it does just that while rated to tow nearly double. The 250 is going to pull attention by all high end Bronco and Wrangler buyers.

 

[Jetboy]

The world has changed a lot in the last 10 years. The ability to buy high resolution 3d models and/or to scan them relatively inexpensively along with computer aided manufacturing means that aftermarket accessories are super easy to develop now. 20 years ago it was rare to have CNC tooling at your local offroad shop. I had access to CNC tooling at my family's shop (not offroad related steel fabrication and manufacturing). Most 4x4 shops had welding equipment and saws and torches. Not that many had CNC plasma tables or laser cutting, plate forming presses, and CNC milling machines. Now - lots of them do. Even in my own hobby shop I have a 5x9 CNC table where I can grab measurements or a 3d scan of a vehicle and make parts in a few hours that would have required a ton of work without them. Skid plates, winch mounts, sliders, even bumpers are just a few hours of design and test fit away from production ready cut files.

Even small volume vehicles can have pretty good aftermarket support with the wide availability of computerized tooling and base models to use. The margins are pretty good too because you no longer need to build a set of complex jigs to build each part. There's still work to be done. It's just not what it was 10 or 20 years ago. I expect to see plenty of aftermarket support.

 

[jayp2]

You’re obviously very personally offended by the new LC. You mentioned in your previous post that you want the LC to compete with a Bronco. You do realize it does just that while rated to tow nearly double. The 250 is going to pull attention by all high end Bronco and Wrangler buyers.

You're obviously leaping to conclusions about what I may or may not think about the 250

Just the facts......

The 250 doesnt compete with features offered in bronco or jeep....not even a little.

No 2 door/shorter wheel base option
No removeable roof let along soft top
No engine options
No transmission options
We could go on and on and on.....

Heck, Jeep still offers a solid front axle

This has always been Toyota's problem.....they offer what THEY want to sell rather than what the market demands.....and thats why LC sales bombed so badly that they were pulled from the US market.....while Ford and Jeep combined sell over 200k units annually of the bronco and jeep


And since there will inevitably only be limited numbers sold it wont see aftermarket options that jeep and bronco owners have access to either.

 

[M1911]

You don't understand how supply has been affected?! You are joking, yes?

Factories, distributors, logistics, entire industries, came to a halt. Many small/medium companies with thin margins completely went out of business. Demand and production came to an immediate halt, something completely unprecedented at this scale.

Then at one point, an almost immediate increase of demand. Supply chains completely broke down with the switch in demand. Add to that there's a significant couple year lag for everything to get to capacity again due to the aforementioned issues. We are towards the end of that lag.

No, I’m not joking. I just took a look at my local Ford dealer’s inventory. They’ve got 700 vehicles in stock.

I checked my local Toyota dealers inventory. They’ve got 120 vehicles in stock, up from 70 last month. Before COVID they would have had at least 400 vehicles in inventory.

The domestic manufacturers seem to have resolved much of their supply chain issues but Toyota simply hasn’t. Toyota told their dealers in January of this year that they are doing everything they can to increase inventory, but they clearly aren’t close to resolving the issue.

 

[desmocruiser]

Dont hold your breath

I'm sure there will be limited offerings of accessories but the only thing that drives that development is sales

The 5-10k units that Toyota is going to sell annually before it tanks and gets pulled from the US market <again> arent enough to drive companies to develop them.

Yeah you are probably right, because there aren’t any products on the market for the 200 series Land Cruiser which never sold more than 4000 units per year in the US, so they certainly shouldn’t develop accessories for the 250 which is slated for 30,000 units per year in the US and is a global model that will be available essentially worldwide!

Heck, Toyota sold nearly 60,000 FJ Cruisers the first 2 years and averaged 14k units until the end in the US, I am pretty sure Toyota and the 250 will do just fine without being in direct competition with Mass produced Jeeps and Broncos.

Full disclosure, personally I am not in Love with the 250 looks, it’s downstream market placement, and agree it is not a replacement for my 200 or any of my vintage Cruisers. BUT it will sell very well even if I never buy one and admit as much as I am disappointed there isn’t a 300 (or a 70 Series) with a LC badge in the US, this is a good move for Toyota.

 

[desmocruiser]

No, I’m not joking. I just took a look at my local Ford dealer’s inventory. They’ve got 700 vehicles in stock.

I checked my local Toyota dealers inventory. They’ve got 120 vehicles in stock, up from 70 last month. Before COVID they would have had at least 400 vehicles in inventory.

The domestic manufacturers seem to have resolved much of their supply chain issues but Toyota simply hasn’t. Toyota told their dealers in January of this year that they are doing everything they can to increase inventory, but they clearly aren’t close to resolving the issue.

Sometimes inventory is a selling problem, not a production problem!

 

[M1911]

Sometimes inventory is a selling problem, not a production problem!

No, it's not, and Toyota's sales figures prove that.

Compare the monthly sales in 2019, pre-pandemic, to 2023.

Toyota sold a lot more Highlanders in 2019 than in 2022 or 2023: 2024 Toyota Highlander Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/highlander
RAV4 sales are closer, but still more in 2019: 2024 Toyota RAV4 Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/rav4
Camry: 2024 Toyota Camry Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/camry
Corolla: 2024 Toyota Corolla Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/corolla

Toyota is NOT selling a bunch more vehicles in 2023 than it did in 2019. It simply isn't. At best they are even, at worst volume is down. The reality is that Toyota simply hasn't gotten their supply chain back up to speed while the domestics have.

Look, I'm a Toyota fan-boy. I've driven Toyotas for about 25 years. Toyota has great strengths as a car company, but we need to be honest about their shortcomings as well, and in this case Toyota is missing the mark.

 

[desmocruiser]

No, it's not, and Toyota's sales figures prove that.

Compare the monthly sales in 2019, pre-pandemic, to 2023.

Toyota sold a lot more Highlanders in 2019 than in 2022 or 2023: 2024 Toyota Highlander Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/highlander
RAV4 sales are closer, but still more in 2019: 2024 Toyota RAV4 Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/rav4
Camry: 2024 Toyota Camry Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/camry
Corolla: 2024 Toyota Corolla Sales Figures - https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/corolla

Toyota is NOT selling a bunch more vehicles in 2023 than it did in 2019. It simply isn't. At best they are even, at worst volume is down. The reality is that Toyota simply hasn't gotten their supply chain back up to speed while the domestics have.

Look, I'm a Toyota fan-boy. I've driven Toyotas for about 25 years. Toyota has great strengths as a car company, but we need to be honest about their shortcomings as well, and in this case Toyota is missing the mark.

I never said they were selling more, just selling everything that they have on the ground by design. Therefore there isn’t a current build up of ground stock, the inverse would be sales slow and ground stock accumulates, ie a selling problem.

This would be true for any business, it is a simple economics metric of supply and demand. It has been a while, maybe it was Keynesian economics who introduced some of these things to the post depression world.

Surprisingly, global production isn’t too far behind 2019. I would say business is pretty good despite the semiconductor challenges!

 

[M1911]

I never said they were selling more, just selling everything that they have on the ground by design.

Again, that is false, as evidenced by Toyota‘s own statements to its dealers at their dealer meeting in January.

Toyota Motor North America promises U.S. dealers it is rebuilding an adequate new-vehicle inventory as quickly as possible but says stocks on dealer lots may not rise much through at least the first part of 2023.

“We’re going to build every one we can get parts for,” says David Christ, group vice president and general manager of the Toyota Div.


In an interview prior to the standing-room-only make meeting at the 2023 NADA Show here, Christ (pictured, below left) says U.S. dealerships ended 2022 with an average of only five days’ supply due to high demand and production that was handicapped by supply-chain issues.

Toyota is not deliberately holding back production in order keep inventory low. Toyota production is being constrained by supply chain issues that Toyota hasn’t solved, while other manufacturers have solved many of their supply chain issues.

Look, just admit that you were wrong on this. Toyota is a great carmaker but they aren’t infallible. Toyota has been unable to solve their supply chain issues.

 

[desmocruiser]

Again, that is false, as evidenced by Toyota‘s own statements to its dealers at their dealer meeting in January.



Toyota is not deliberately holding back production in order keep inventory low. Toyota production is being constrained by supply chain issues that Toyota hasn’t solved, while other manufacturers have solved many of their supply chain issues.

Look, just admit that you were wrong on this. Toyota is a great carmaker but they aren’t infallible. Toyota has been unable to solve their supply chain issues.

Well I am not wrong (at least in this example, although I can find many times in my life I have been haha).

Further, Toyota wasn’t even the point of the comment, but seems to be the one you are focused.

Ford (your example) inventory is growing somewhat due to the fact they aren’t selling the cars they are building and have available, IE, a SALES problem.

Toyota is not holding back production (although I was surprised they were that close to pre pandemic global production) and never said they were, but they are selling a much higher % of their on ground inventory or maybe producing cars consumers are buying, therefore not building very much ground stock, which was a comparison measure you were using.

The by design comment, is based on the fact they are encouraging dealers to sell to zero on ground inventory each month, finding a way to sell what they have available (can produce) IE not a SALES problem. If Toyota didn’t follow that path, sales would be further behind 2019.

I am not indicating Toyota is infallible, or solved all the supply chain issues, far from it, but that is an entirely different thread topic!

Also, with the UAW strike looming all these metrics could look very differently in a few short months!

Have a great morning!

 

[NinjahGoose]

You're obviously leaping to conclusions about what I may or may not think about the 250

Just the facts......

The 250 doesnt compete with features offered in bronco or jeep....not even a little.

No 2 door/shorter wheel base option
No removeable roof let along soft top
No engine options
No transmission options
We could go on and on and on.....

Heck, Jeep still offers a solid front axle

This has always been Toyota's problem.....they offer what THEY want to sell rather than what the market demands.....and thats why LC sales bombed so badly that they were pulled from the US market.....while Ford and Jeep combined sell over 200k units annually of the bronco and jeep


And since there will inevitably only be limited numbers sold it wont see aftermarket options that jeep and bronco owners have access to either.

You want a very very niche product. Both Jeep and Ford sell a lot less 2 door soft top trims than the 4 door hard tops. According to Forbes, 90% of Jeep sales are 4 door models. If you want one of those then go buy one.

Why would Toyota offer multiple engine options? They fitted the best combo they can to the LC and left it alone. With a single engine option it reduces overheard and decreases the price of parts. Again, this 2.4 Hybrid in the LC makes more power than any offering from Ford (minus the raptor) and is very close to the PHEV Wrangler.

You mentioned sales numbers. How many 4Runners does Toyota sell? According to Car Figures Toyota sells about 130K per year. Everyone knows the 4Runner is just a restyled Prado for the American market. You can pretty much combine the 6th Gen 4R sales numbers with the 250, they're most likely going to be made on the same assembly line anyway.

People are spending $70-80K (including ADM) on stock Bronco's. If Toyota can sell the LC for low $60's they won't be able to build them quick enough. It would be price competitive, have Toyota reliability/name, more power, nearly double towing capacity, and 2.4Kw onboard battery. The fact that you want a product from 30 years ago is not Toyota's problem.

 

[elbarto]

I think the stuff that we are seeing here is the same stuff that goes most online communities. People tend to get emotionally attached to stuff that they spent money on and do so to reinforce their decision. Its ok to like more than one thing, just as its ok if what a manufacture is selling is not in line with what you need.

Very true. IME toyota owners are some of the worst offenders about getting defensive if you criticize toyota vehicles.
Say the 4Runner is outdated powertrain and interior and they will scream about reliability (when most people really aren’t keeping them long enough as first or second owners for it it matter)
Say the Tacoma still has drum brakes and they will somehow try and explain how drum brakes are actually better
Deep down I think toyota owners of some of these popular offroad model’s in particular know deep down they overpaid for a vehicle that is lower quality than some other vehicles in the price category in the name of “reliability” when it probably won’t matter much in the time span they own the vehicle.

 

[jayp2]

You want a very very niche product. Both Jeep and Ford sell a lot less 2 door soft top trims than the 4 door hard tops. According to Forbes, 90% of Jeep sales are 4 door models. If you want one of those then go buy one.

Why would Toyota offer multiple engine options? They fitted the best combo they can to the LC and left it alone. With a single engine option it reduces overheard and decreases the price of parts. Again, this 2.4 Hybrid in the LC makes more power than any offering from Ford (minus the raptor) and is very close to the PHEV Wrangler.

You mentioned sales numbers. How many 4Runners does Toyota sell? According to Car Figures Toyota sells about 130K per year. Everyone knows the 4Runner is just a restyled Prado for the American market. You can pretty much combine the 6th Gen 4R sales numbers with the 250, they're most likely going to be made on the same assembly line anyway.

People are spending $70-80K (including ADM) on stock Bronco's. If Toyota can sell the LC for low $60's they won't be able to build them quick enough. It would be price competitive, have Toyota reliability/name, more power, nearly double towing capacity, and 2.4Kw onboard battery. The fact that you want a product from 30 years ago is not Toyota's problem.

Even if that 10% of jeep sales number is true its still TEN THOUSAND units that Jeep sells every single year and has sold for decades.

Thats two to three times the total land cruiser sales for the US each year for a decade before they pulled the LC....now they've just reintroduced the same over appointed school bus that bombed out of the US market a couple years ago with a Prius 4x4 twist.

Toyota already makes diesels AND gas engines that can (and do) put out 250 plus HP and plenty of torque that can be spec'd into a 73 and a 76 dimension vehicle that would sell out every unit they offered for sale in the US if they offered it........I took my 77 on vacation last week and had no fewer than 2 dozen people approach me and make statements to the effect that if Toyota brought the 70's to the US that they would buy one in a second.

The sad thing is that the 250 is going to bomb just like the last LC did after one or maybe two years of tolerable sales just like the last generation of over appointed LC school bus did and Toyota marketing folks will wring their hands and declare that the US market has no demand for a "Land Cruiser" anymore instead of admitting they ****ed up and chose not to offer what the US market unquestionably and undeniably is demanding as evident by the 200,000 annual sales of Jeep and Bronco year after year....

 

[jayp2]

Yeah you are probably right, because there aren’t any products on the market for the 200 series Land Cruiser which never sold more than 4000 units per year in the US, so they certainly shouldn’t develop accessories for the 250 which is slated for 30,000 units per year in the US and is a global model that will be available essentially worldwide!

Heck, Toyota sold nearly 60,000 FJ Cruisers the first 2 years and averaged 14k units until the end in the US, I am pretty sure Toyota and the 250 will do just fine without being in direct competition with Mass produced Jeeps and Broncos.

Full disclosure, personally I am not in Love with the 250 looks, it’s downstream market placement, and agree it is not a replacement for my 200 or any of my vintage Cruisers. BUT it will sell very well even if I never buy one and admit as much as I am disappointed there isn’t a 300 (or a 70 Series) with a LC badge in the US, this is a good move for Toyota.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the 200 came out in 2007.....

Toyota never sold 4k units annually of the 200 series.

Toyota Land Cruiser Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

Furthermore it was many many years before aftermarket parts/accessories were seen to hit the US market

The 250 is more complicated and as such more difficult to manufacture compatible parts/accessories of any substance for.

 

[SilverKast]

The problem with the domestics is that they've increased pricing too much over the last 3 years, along with the increased interest rates. They got greedy plain and simple and I laugh when I drive past their lots overflowing with inventory.

I had a brand new 2021 Rubicon 4 door that I bought new and then sold last year. Now that same vehicle is $20k CDN higher in just 2 1/2 years. And they want $20-30k markups on a 392. It's criminal what they're asking nowadays and I refuse to pay it. I'm not sure who's paying these prices but I just don't see how they can continue to go up given the current economic environment.

I'd love a 392, but I'm happy to wait for a LC250 or the GX550 instead.

 

[NinjahGoose]

Even if that 10% of jeep sales number is true its still TEN THOUSAND units that Jeep sells every single year and has sold for decades.

Thats two to three times the total land cruiser sales for the US each year for a decade before they pulled the LC....now they've just reintroduced the same over appointed school bus that bombed out of the US market a couple years ago with a Prius 4x4 twist.

Toyota already makes diesels AND gas engines that can (and do) put out 250 plus HP and plenty of torque that can be spec'd into a 73 and a 76 dimension vehicle that would sell out every unit they offered for sale in the US if they offered it........I took my 77 on vacation last week and had no fewer than 2 dozen people approach me and make statements to the effect that if Toyota brought the 70's to the US that they would buy one in a second.

The sad thing is that the 250 is going to bomb just like the last LC did after one or maybe two years of tolerable sales just like the last generation of over appointed LC school bus did and Toyota marketing folks will wring their hands and declare that the US market has no demand for a "Land Cruiser" anymore instead of admitting they f***ed up and chose not to offer what the US market unquestionably and undeniably is demanding as evident by the 200,000 annual sales of Jeep and Bronco year after year....

 

[desmocruiser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the 200 came out in 2007.....

Toyota never sold 4k units annually of the 200 series.

Toyota Land Cruiser Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

carsalesbase.com

Furthermore it was many many years before aftermarket parts/accessories were seen to hit the US market

The 250 is more complicated and as such more difficult to manufacture compatible parts/accessories of any substance for.

The first 200 was a 2008 model in the US, not sure when it debuted, likely late 07’? or about when it was released outside of the US.

Correct, never over 4000 units as a LC, that doesn’t include Lexus badged 200’s, that is what I mentioned in my post.

I don’t recall when aftermarket parts were available on the 200, however both the market and engineering are different (more accessible, cheaper, better supported) now and things are quicker to the market. There are now multiple offerings on the market for a low production vehicle being modified by niche buyers.

With the 250 the market is ideal for the aftermarket Overlanding enthusiasts and there will plenty of products on the market, I am betting pretty quickly. Many by Toyota or rebranded Toyota that are produced by already existing suppliers in that space.

For example, Toyota has a lift kit available and has for sometime for the recently redesigned Tundra. I realize that is a higher volume vehicle, just an indication of their support and with Toyota pushing development, things can happen quickly, especially if there are common components between vehicles.

I would not bet against having the ability to buy a lifted, racked, etc. 250 off the showroom floor fairly soon after they hit the shores!

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW - I think there's a good chance Toyota is intentionally withholding production to maintain high margins. Occam's razor. The two alternative explanations are

A - Toyota, the most advanced auto manufacturer in the world known for exceptional flexibility in manufacturing can't produce at scale while everyone else can or

B - supply shortage vs margins is non-linear and every unit not produced is generating more additional profit from higher margins than the loss in sales volume.

Option B sounds a lot more likely to me. Toyota's goal is making money not cars. And we learned that - at least in the short run - Toyota can cut supply and inflate prices and make a lot more profit. (I think it'll come back to bite them in the long run as customers jump ship to other brands as we see happening now).

There will be tons of aftermarket support. The overland farkle fad is so popular right now and so high profit margins that there is going to be a race to get the first ones to build the first sliders and skids and lifts and cover it from bumper to bumper in tactical molle panels and overland patch holders. Look at how much money companies get from making aluminum spacer sets for the Tundra and selling them for hundreds of dollars. They're dead simple to make and for whatever reason it seems that the higher the price the more people want a spacer lift. Or the ditch light brackets. Or tacoma bed racks for 2 gallon fuel cans - the most functionally useless products are bolted to the side of every other tacoma you see. $20 gas can that holds 5 gallons in the bed of the truck? Hell NO! I need 1.8 gallons of fuel in a $100 fuel can mounted on a $800 bed rack so I can keep the truck bed empty. We all see it. There's zero chance the LC doesn't have a dozen vendors making all the farkle you could ever want within a few weeks of them hitting the street.

This probably costs less than $20 to produce and sells for $500. With margins like that - there will be a line of people ready to make them.

 

[MoJ]

Another highly predictable enthusiast forum next gen launch conversation

 

[Hiluxforever]

Very true. IME toyota owners are some of the worst offenders about getting defensive if you criticize toyota vehicles.
Say the 4Runner is outdated powertrain and interior and they will scream about reliability (when most people really aren’t keeping them long enough as first or second owners for it it matter)
Say the Tacoma still has drum brakes and they will somehow try and explain how drum brakes are actually better
Deep down I think toyota owners of some of these popular offroad model’s in particular know deep down they overpaid for a vehicle that is lower quality than some other vehicles in the price category in the name of “reliability” when it probably won’t matter much in the time span they own the vehicle.

Someone has been doing research on the toilet again.