Interest: Bolt on X-Link

[landtank]

Kind of sucks that the Lawyers had to be brought into the thread. The 80s have been in an innovation stall for a while and when somebody starts talking about something new the threat of pending law suits come up.

The day of openly sharing ideas and enjoying the thrill gotten from designing something that works better than what is out there and then sharing it with others is over.

Sad day for everyone.

 

[Ebag333]

Kind of sucks that the Lawyers had to be brought into the thread. The 80s have been in an innovation stall for a while and when somebody starts talking about something new the threat of pending law suits come up.

The day of openly sharing ideas and enjoying the thrill gotten from designing something that works better than what is out there and then sharing it with others is over.

Sad day for everyone.

Indeed!

 

[sleeoffroad]

Kind of sucks that the Lawyers had to be brought into the thread. The 80s have been in an innovation stall for a while and when somebody starts talking about something new the threat of pending law suits come up.

The day of openly sharing ideas and enjoying the thrill gotten from designing something that works better than what is out there and then sharing it with others is over.

Sad day for everyone.

Yes, it is sad but true. However sharing info etc etc is all good, but Ebag says he wants to sell these. I just mentioned it since this thread was specifically started to get input on selling them, not just about the technical merits of the mod.

I am just pointing out that he should take insurance into account when pricing the item. Unfortunately it is the nature of the game. It is pretty easy to undercut existing offerings when not all the costing factors are taken into account.

Believe me, I wish we worked on the basis that everyone took responsibility for their own actions and we do not have to worry about these things.

 

[Riad]

Interested. Post some pix if/when you have a prototype ready.

 

[Ebag333]

but Ebag says he wants to sell these. I just mentioned it since this thread was specifically started to get input on selling them, not just about the technical merits of the mod.

I'm exploring several options at the moment. I may not end up selling these, except perhaps a few to friends. That, as you said, was part of the reason for the thread, to get input on selling them. If there's not much interest, then it's a moot point.

The other point to the thread is to get some feedback on the X-Link in general. No doubt I'll get more of that when I have the prototype actually done.

 

[landtank]

Yes, it is sad but true. However sharing info etc etc is all good, but Ebag says he wants to sell these. I just mentioned it since this thread was specifically started to get input on selling them, not just about the technical merits of the mod.

I am just pointing out that he should take insurance into account when pricing the item. Unfortunately it is the nature of the game. It is pretty easy to undercut existing offerings when not all the costing factors are taken into account.

Believe me, I wish we worked on the basis that everyone took responsibility for their own actions and we do not have to worry about these things.

Well if he has people requesting that he make them for them I'm sure he would be fine. It gets a little more dicey when you openly market them through a web site.

I'm sure everyone in the merchandise storefront area could use to hear from you on this. They're not all 80 owners but could use the warning.

 

[Ebag333]

Well if he has people requesting that he make them for them I'm sure he would be fine. It gets a little more dicey when you openly market them through a web site.

If I sell them personally, then it'll be basically a custom one by one basis by request, similar to what CreeperSleeper is doing for his skid plate, and others have done for other items.

I'm sure everyone in the merchandise storefront area could use to hear from you on this. They're not all 80 owners but could use the warning.

Slee's just trying to get everyone to overprice their goods so he can swoop in and undercut us all.







I kid, I kid!

He does have a valid point, but at some point it becomes a cost VS benefit factor. How much you think I'm gonna pay for product insurance on 10 of these? I'd probably have to sell 'em for $1k+, just to break even. And that's if I could even get it.

Would that even be worth it? At the insane cost of product insurance for limited numbers, not even close. I'd quite literally price myself out of the market.

Heck, even doing a simple liability waiver will be expensive enough, given what lawyers charge.

 

[landtank]

He does have a valid point

yes he does, but the concept point in product development is way to early to start with such talk.

Insurance is going to be a negative any way you look at it and to bring that negativity in this early could and would discourage further development with some people.

Nobody, well almost nobody, benefits from new product ideas dieing before even the prototyping is done.

Work through the process, nail down the design, lock in your costs and then see if demand will pay for the liability and provide the margin you need to sustain production.

 

[Nay]

It won't sell because your average 80 owner benefits more from the stability of the front end than they will from a lot of extra flex.

My front end flexes ok when it needs to. The only reason I'd really want a redesigned front end is for trail comfort on rougher sections you might want to take at some speed.

Here's a hint - don't unhinge the rear suspension with a longer shock (don't go longer shocks just because you now have more lift) and run a connected rear swaybar with the front swaybar removed.

Those are 37's all nice and flexed up.

 

[Ebag333]

It won't sell because your average 80 owner benefits more from the stability of the front end than they will from a lot of extra flex.

My front end flexes ok when it needs to. The only reason I'd really want a redesigned front end is for trail comfort on rougher sections you might want to take at some speed.

Maybe it's different wheeling styles. That's the beauty of MUD, no one agrees with anyone else.

Here's a hint - don't unhinge the rear suspension with a longer shock (don't go longer shocks just because you now have more lift) and run a connected rear swaybar with the front swaybar removed.

I'd rather have longer shocks and need to limit them (which is rather easy with limiting straps) than too short of shocks that limit my flexibility (pardon the pun).

 

[Nay]

Maybe it's different wheeling styles. That's the beauty of MUD, no one agrees with anyone else.

Nah, it's the fact that 80 owners are OCD

It's like buying a hypochondriac woman breast implants. Yes, they will be bigger and maybe they will get a lot of stares, but she will be feeling them all the time for lumps, leaks, and whatever else is likely to kill her, and then asking you if you think everything is ok on a daily basis.

Save yourself

 

[NKP Garage]

It won't sell because your average 80 owner benefits more from the stability of the front end than they will from a lot of extra flex.

My front end flexes ok when it needs to. The only reason I'd really want a redesigned front end is for trail comfort on rougher sections you might want to take at some speed.

Here's a hint - don't unhinge the rear suspension with a longer shock (don't go longer shocks just because you now have more lift) and run a connected rear swaybar with the front swaybar removed.

Those are 37's all nice and flexed up.

Is that your truck in the picture? From your signature I assume you're running FOR springs?

 

[Dusty]

the 80 series does not flex well in the front. Still gets the job done thanks to the great rear

there is no such thing as a waiver in matters like this.

and an x link is just silly. the cheapest way to flex would be a better radius arm setup. think jeep

 

[OGBeno]

the 80 series does not flex well in the front. Still gets the job done thanks to the great rear

there is no such thing as a waiver in matters like this.

and an x link is just silly. the cheapest way to flex would be a better radius arm setup. think jeep

x2 on what Dusty said.

 

[Ebag333]

Nah, it's the fact that 80 owners are OCD

If my thinking of different answers to your original post all day today counts as OCD......

and an x link is just silly. the cheapest way to flex would be a better radius arm setup. think jeep

Okay. You do your better radius arms (which I agree would help), I'll do my X-Link, and then we'll compare price and on-road handling compared to stock.

I think I'd have a slight advantage in both cases.


There are other ways to get better flex than an X-Link. I've yet to see a way of getting (significantly) better flex while maintaining the exact same driving characteristics, and without breaking the bank.

 

[Atticus]

Interesting legal issues. This isn't my area of practice, but I don't see a reason why a properly drafted waiver couldn't seriously limit ebag's exposure to liability FROM THE PERSON WHO PURCHASED THE SUSPENSION COMPONENTS. However, something to consider is what would happen if one of these components failed on the road, causing an accident that injured somebody else, who had not signed a waiver with ebag. I don't know what defense you would have to a suit of that nature.

Just sort of thinking out loud here. This is completely different than signing a waiver with respect to sky-diving, roller coasters, etc., where the only person who can be hurt is you. Let's take a completely rational hypothetical:

Atticus purchases this item, and puts it on his truck in compliance with the design and instructions provided by ebag. He is driving down the highway with his friend Boo in the car. Something breaks, and the truck drives off the road into a light pole. Boo and Atticus are both injured. Atticus has waived at least some portion of his claim against ebag, but what about Boo? Let's say Boo sues for $250,000. Ebag will have to hire a lawyer. To go from square one to trial is about $50,000. So Ebag is out $50,000, plus the judgment amount. Could be $300,000. Ebag needs insurance, and needs it badly (if he can even get it for manufacturing an item like this at his own house).

You need to proceed carefully.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Slee's just trying to get everyone to overprice their goods so he can swoop in and undercut us all.

Sure, that is what we do. But seriously the cost is a factor in pricing items. And a pretty big one at that.

He does have a valid point, but at some point it becomes a cost VS benefit factor. How much you think I'm gonna pay for product insurance on 10 of these? I'd probably have to sell 'em for $1k+, just to break even. And that's if I could even get it.

It is normally a percentage of your total turn-over with a minimum to start. That minimum us normally in the $20k range per year. It also depends on if you get it for all items sold that year in perpetuity, or for any claim in that year.

 

[Ebag333]

I don't see a reason why a properly drafted waiver couldn't seriously limit ebag's exposure to liability FROM THE PERSON WHO PURCHASED THE SUSPENSION COMPONENTS. However, something to consider is what would happen if one of these components failed on the road, causing an accident that injured somebody else, who had not signed a waiver with ebag. I don't know what defense you would have to a suit of that nature.

That's a really good point.

I think that something that helps for that, and what I've seen people often do, is to make it for "off road use only." The defense you would have then is that if it's used on road, they've used the product improperly, so that limits (but does not eliminate) the liability. Kinda like how they put on lawn mowers "For use on lawns and grass only" because some guy tried to cut his hedges with one and sued the manufacturer.

You could also include in the waiver that they assume liability for all other persons, etc, though I'm not sure how much that'd limit your liability.

Atticus purchases this item, and puts it on his truck in compliance with the design and instructions provided by ebag. He is driving down the highway with his friend Boo in the car. Something breaks, and the truck drives off the road into a light pole. Boo and Atticus are both injured. Atticus has waived at least some portion of his claim against ebag, but what about Boo? Let's say Boo sues for $250,000. Ebag will have to hire a lawyer. To go from square one to trial is about $50,000. So Ebag is out $50,000, plus the judgment amount. Could be $300,000. Ebag needs insurance, and needs it badly (if he can even get it for manufacturing an item like this at his own house).

You need to proceed carefully.

Hmm, that actually got me started searching on car insurance and after market parts. There's very little out there except that the insurance company could deny coverage of the after market parts. No doubt they would fight it though, in your example. I did find this however:

Few drivers realize that aftermarket parts are generally not insured, so if you have an accident in your modified car, your insurer is not likely to reimburse you for the damaged add-ons. Even worse, in some cases insurers may deny the whole claim or cancel the policy.

Still, if you’re willing to pay more than you would for a standard policy, there are ways to get coverage for those add-ons from specialty insurers and even from mainstream ones.

So the waiver could include that in order to run it you have to find insurance coverage to cover the part. That might be enough to put the liability back on the owner.

All interesting questions to bring up to a product liability lawyer.

It is normally a percentage of your total turn-over with a minimum to start. That minimum us normally in the $20k range per year. It also depends on if you get it for all items sold that year in perpetuity, or for any claim in that year.

How many times have you had to use your insurance?

So if I plan on selling 10, the price will only be $2,500 per item.

Who wants to sign up?

 

[CreeperSleeper]

Is that your truck in the picture? From your signature I assume you're running FOR springs?

It is Nay's truck and he is running FOR suspension.

 

[Atticus]

That's a really good point.

I think that something that helps for that, and what I've seen people often do, is to make it for "off road use only." The defense you would have then is that if it's used on road, they've used the product improperly, so that limits (but does not eliminate) the liability. Kinda like how they put on lawn mowers "For use on lawns and grass only" because some guy tried to cut his hedges with one and sued the manufacturer.

You could also include in the waiver that they assume liability for all other persons, etc, though I'm not sure how much that'd limit your liability.





Hmm, that actually got me started searching on car insurance and after market parts. There's very little out there except that the insurance company could deny coverage of the after market parts. No doubt they would fight it though, in your example. I did find this however:



So the waiver could include that in order to run it you have to find insurance coverage to cover the part. That might be enough to put the liability back on the owner.

All interesting questions to bring up to a product liability lawyer.




How many times have you had to use your insurance?

So if I plan on selling 10, the price will only be $2,500 per item.

Who wants to sign up?

You are starting to see the numerous hurdles in front of you. I'm thinking this isn't really a situation where a waiver would help. In fact, even if you did get the buyer to agree to assume liability (which isn't really something you can do), there would be no way for a contractual relationship between you and a second party to limit a third party's ability to come after you for some misfeasance.

Sorry, dude.