Interest: Bolt on X-Link

[Ebag333]

As we all know, the 80's front end simply doesn't have much flex to it. At all.

My truck:

I ramped my truck to measure how much compression I could get in my shocks. I was able to fully compress the rear....but the front laughed at my attempts to compress it.

Many of us know and use (myself included, though I did not in that pic) the "poor man's three link" AKA "hitch pin mod." And while that does add a bit more suppleness to the front, and allow it to flex a bit more, the body still wants to follow the front axle and make the rear do all the work.


So I've been bouncing around different ideas, and in all my research the one that's appealed to me the most is the X-Link.

Now this isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, as he's running about a 6-7" lift and also has his radius arms flipped, but the big thing to look at is how flat his body is. (That and 38" tires dropping below the door sills front and rear. )

So a few days ago I went had a series of on how to do this as a complete bolt on mod. I had always gotten hung up on several parts requiring welding, which tends to scare (some) folks off.

It would require cutting/grinding off your front axle mounts for your control arms, but other than that it'd be a complete bolt on mod.


Some advantages I can think of:

• Most flex possible (yes yes, I know you'll have binding, but it would allow the front to cycle much more than it does). Will have most of the advantages and handle similar to a 3 Link on the trail.
• Completely bolt on.
• Easily adjustable caster.
• When pinned in place, will drive and handle identical to OEM.

Some disadvantages I can think of:

• Does not address the binding that can happen when fully flexed.
• Requires cutting/grinding off the front mounts.
• Fairly hefty hunk of steel hanging off the front end. (Advantage as it'd take a hit from a rock before the axle housing? Great for snow plowing too! )
• Cost? (Ya'll are a bunch of cheap . ) I have a rough idea of price to make a one-off, but no idea on price for a production run.

So I got two questions for ya.

1. Would you be interested?
2. What sort of price range do you think would be reasonable? (In other words, how much of your $$$ are you willing to give up?)

 

[Lka1988]

I don't know what's up with your front end, mine flexes fine...

 

[Lka1988]

That being said, I'd be interested in this setup...

 

[Ebag333]

Nothing's wrong with it, it just doesn't want to do as much work as the back.

Both your pics are perfect examples of what I'm talking about. Yes, your front is flexing, but it's no where near as supple as it could be. Your body is following your front axle, and your rear is doing two to three times the work of the front. (Well, not so much in the second pic, but there's not much flex in the rear axle in that pic.)

It's hard to tell but it looks like you're running the hitch pin mod. Are you unpinned in those pics?

 

[kidglove13]

I would be interested in this set up as well.
Does anyone produce the now that we could just order from.
I recall dobbins engineering made the x-link?
Is it available to the US?

 

[Ebag333]

I would be interested in this set up as well.
Does anyone produce the now that we could just order from.
I recall dobbins engineering made the x-link?
Is it available to the US?

Dobbins does make them. I don't know a price today, but I know a couple years back they were quoting something like $700, not including getting them to the States (if I recall correctly).

Dobbins is not bolt on, as far as I know. But I could be wrong, there's very little info on it on their webpage. I also couldn't find any write up or details on 80's running their X-Link.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not available anywhere else other than custom.

(That's kinda the idea of this thread, to judge the interest from folks here in the States. )

 

[-Spike-]

I don't know how you are going to 'bolt on' the center link, but I'm interested. However, $700 is pretty pricey for the return, and frankly I'd want to flip the arms anyway, which would probably require high steer and other custom stuff.

I think you'll have to bite the bullet and build at least one, and show us how much advantage it can give. If it truly was bolt on and could get one 37" tire stuffed and the other below the rockers that would be exciting, and I'd probably shelve my plans to flip the arms and go custom. Bolt on is nice, but usually comes with compromise.

 

[FJason80]

I'd be interested! Get a prototype built up and post some pictures. This would be a great mod, I'm sick of my front flex as compared with my buddies 4 runner.

 

[Ebag333]

I don't know how you are going to 'bolt on' the center link, but I'm interested.

There's enough room to do either U-Bolts or some sort of fabricated mount/supports on the axle housing. I will need to play around with it to figure out exactly how it's going to work, but it's certainly just as doable as sliders.

I'm not a huge fan of U-Bolts, but they're typically the easiest for this sort of application. If I did it that way, I'd likely have supports above/below the axle housing so it can't twist around it, and some protection for the bottom of the axle housing.

However, $700 is pretty pricey for the return

$700 is way too pricey in my book. Again, I don't have a price yet for it but I'm thinking much less than that.

Let me put it to you this way....it should be far less fab than sliders or a bumper. (heck, it should be less fab than one slider.)

and frankly I'd want to flip the arms anyway, which would probably require high steer and other custom stuff.

You can flip the arms without doing anything else, and you could still use the bolt on X-Link with the arms flipped (just flip the X-Link upside down).

I plan on designing it in such a way that the X-Link can be easily adapted for this purpose as one of my original intents was to flip my arms. I don't think I'm going to go that far now as I'd really need more lift to do it properly, but I don't want to limit myself either should I go that route in the future.

I think you'll have to bite the bullet and build at least one, and show us how much advantage it can give.

Absolutely. And, coincidentally, I just got the okay from the to spend the money to do so.....

If it truly was bolt on and could get one 37" tire stuffed and the other below the rockers that would be exciting, and I'd probably shelve my plans to flip the arms and go custom. Bolt on is nice, but usually comes with compromise.

I won't run 37's on my truck, but that's the goal for my 35's. Not quite as impressive, I know, but not half bad either.

If you have the lift, I think flipping the arms gives you a lot of advantages in freeing up the suspension.

As for bolt on being a compromise, you could always weld it on just as easily as any set of sliders.....

I'm sick of my front flex as compared with my buddies 4 runner.

I sure hope that's not an IFS 4 Runner.

 

[thestallionq8]

Just a few pics of my 80 on a ramp prior to re-gearing, 315s, and new wheels!

JUST FOR FUN, MY LITTLE FJ40 ON THE RAMP

 

[-Spike-]

I just got the okay from the to spend the money...

You build it and they will come.

U-bolts on sliders don't bother me, if they fail I'm probably not gonna be dead. While there probably isn't a ton of torque on the x-link center point, there is a lot of constant movement, seems like it wouldn't be difficult for the u-bolts to work themselves loose. But you're right, if you get the rest of the issues worked out, like what joints to use, and the manufacturing end taken care of, I can easily weld any part I'm not comfortable with.

The thing that really scares me is the liability. If you lived near me I'd love to get together and build something like this, but to then sell it is putting yourself in a bad position. I don't know if there's some kind of waiver you could use, but if you're going that way you would do well to look into it. Also, keep in mind that other people have probably looked into doing this, maybe you could think of one or two and pick their brains as to why they haven't marketed something yet.

 

[Ebag333]

U-bolts on sliders don't bother me, if they fail I'm probably not gonna be dead. While there probably isn't a ton of torque on the x-link center point, there is a lot of constant movement, seems like it wouldn't be difficult for the u-bolts to work themselves loose. But you're right, if you get the rest of the issues worked out, like what joints to use, and the manufacturing end taken care of, I can easily weld any part I'm not comfortable with.

The thing that really scares me is the liability. If you lived near me I'd love to get together and build something like this, but to then sell it is putting yourself in a bad position. I don't know if there's some kind of waiver you could use, but if you're going that way you would do well to look into it. Also, keep in mind that other people have probably looked into doing this, maybe you could think of one or two and pick their brains as to why they haven't marketed something yet.

As I said before I'm not a fan of U-Bolts in the least. I've seen/heard too many failing, due to twisting, breaking, getting sheared off on a rock, etc.

Welding would be the preferable option to me, but for some reason that scares people off. They're willing to spend $900 on a item (not that I'm suggesting this would cost that much) and not the $20-$40 to weld a single part.

Heck, plenty of people don't adjust their caster at all, or go with bushings instead of plates because they don't want to weld. I don't get it, but it's there.

Anyway, in reality the U Bolts are completely unnecessary. My design for the pivot point will wrap around the axle housing on three sides (front, top, bottom), and the rear control arm mounts themselves will prevent it from moving forward enough to come off. So in order for it to fail, you'd have to have:

1) One U-Bolts fails.
2) The second U-Bolt fails.
3) One of the control arm rear mounts, or one of the support bracing (top or bottom) on the axle housing fail.

None of these is likely to happen given the relatively low stress the pivot point will see--most of the potential stress will be eaten up by the X-Link pivoting, and then most of the remaining will be eaten up by the three bushings (one in each control arm, one in the center bushing on the pivot point).

As I mentioned to Lka in a PM, I'm planning on using nothing smaller than 1/4". That's much larger than the thickness of the OEM mounts, and if those can hold up to our abuse I have no doubt that 1/4" will.


And even if there was a critical failure....

• Pivot point fails:
  Axle is now only supported with the rear control arm mounts, and will roll. Because the mounts are behind the springs, the axle will roll under the control arms. This will cause tons of damage, but unlikely to cause serious injury or death. (As mentioned before, this would have to be a three stage failure.)
• One control arm mount fails:
  Axle is still supported in three locations. This would handle and perform similar somewhat similar to our hitch pin mod, or a 3 link. The axle may want to roll, but binding in the X-Link should prevent it from going completely under. This is the most likely form of failure, and would be less serious than the previous form.

The thing is....both these forms of failure are possible with a stock setup. Especially for those of us running the hitch pin mod, we can overstress the front control arm mount and cause a similar failure as the second example.

The first type of failure is the one that concerns me the most as it'd let the axle roll under the control arms. I considered not even bothering with the U-Bolts as the control arms themselves will act to keep that pivot point in, but figured that having them there was simply one extra safety feature.

And of course you could simply weld it in place (even just a couple of tack welds) and call it a day.


I'm a huge fan of over engineering. This is why my skid plate is made out of 4 gauge steel when many other options are around 10 gauge. It's why I used 1/4" wall tubing to reinforce my rear lower control arms when 3/16ths would have likely worked as well. My homebrew sliders will be about twice the wall thickness of Metal Tech's (though not nearly as pretty). I've yet to break something I've put on my truck, and I know I've hit my skid plate hard enough to bend it. (Not much, but a little!) I'd rather double the thickness of the brackets and eat the cost than stay up at night worried that something might fail (yeah, I'm paranoid that way).

As far as waivers goes, that's not a bad idea. I think I'll take your advice there.

 

[NKP Garage]

Another thought to just play devil's advocate here... A lot of the lack of suspension compression in the front may have to do with firmer spring rates used in the "lift" packages. I know when I pulled my factory springs recently to install the OME medium springs front/rear, the OME springs were just about identical in size/height to the factory springs, and were just firmer in order to keep the vehicle up higher. They also ride quite a bit more firmer, almost too firm in my opinion, and I can definitely see that contributing to the lack of movement/compression in the front end. The stock springs would probably allow for way more movement. Also, for the lifted guys, a softer/taller spring would also net better results. This may not net in quite as much articulation as an x-link setup, but would definitely improve the amount of movement.

 

[Ebag333]

Another thought to just play devil's advocate here... A lot of the lack of suspension compression in the front may have to do with firmer spring rates used in the "lift" packages. I know when I pulled my factory springs recently to install the OME medium springs front/rear, the OME springs were just about identical in size/height to the factory springs, and were just firmer in order to keep the vehicle up higher. They also ride quite a bit more firmer, almost too firm in my opinion, and I can definitely see that contributing to the lack of movement/compression in the front end. The stock springs would probably allow for way more movement. Also, for the lifted guys, a softer/taller spring would also net better results. This may not net in quite as much articulation as an x-link setup, but would definitely improve the amount of movement.

That's definitely a factor here, but even the folks with J's (relatively soft) or FOR springs still see the same behavior of the body following the front axle. Perhaps not as much, but the rear is still doing most of the work.

I'll be the first to admit that my hybrid lift is not ideal for flex. I'd love to upgrade to the FOR springs, those to me are ideal for my wants/needs. Now I just need $600 to do it.....

 

[mudgudgeon]

Dobbins does make them. I don't know a price today, but I know a couple years back they were quoting something like $700, not including getting them to the States (if I recall correctly).

Dobbins is not bolt on, as far as I know. But I could be wrong, there's very little info on it on their webpage. I also couldn't find any write up or details on 80's running their X-Link.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not available anywhere else other than custom.

(That's kinda the idea of this thread, to judge the interest from folks here in the States. )

The Dobbins x-link is not bolt-on and it is not custom, ie it is the same for all 80s. It is shaped to follow the diff hoiusing to reduce the front protrusion
It is a quite simple weld on installation for anyone who has reasonable fabrication skill. Last I checked, they where selling for AU$600 locally in oz

from your discussion regarding using U bolts and brackets etc to stop them moving, the weld on method used by Dobbin x-link will be less work, simpler and far more secure. You are talking about doing most of the same work ie cutting radius arm brackets, caster correction etc.

IMO there is too much rotational force to rely on U bolts to retain a x-link. You will still have to fabricate a centre pivot along with brackets to facilitate U bolts, there would be less fabrication to make it as a weld on installation.

I see no advantage in bolt on, and lots of potential downside, and probably more expense in the long run.

there has been some good write ups on aussie forums.

edit: the white 80 you have pictured has a home made version of the x-link on it and at the time of the pic was running 7" springs and 38s

 

[Ebag333]

The Dobbins x-link is not bolt-on and it is not custom, ie it is the same for all 80s. It is shaped to follow the diff hoiusing to reduce the front protrusion

Having it shaped is a nice little feature, but would add a ton of expensive for a savings of about two to four inches. Not a huge savings IMHO.

Last I checked, they where selling for AU$600 locally in oz

$600 AUD is currently $513.60 USD, and that doesn't include the shipping over (which is quite expensive if you don't want to wait a few months).

My aim is to undercut that quite a bit. Can I actually do it? Maybe, maybe not.

from your discussion regarding using U bolts and brackets etc to stop them moving, the weld on method used by Dobbin x-link will be less work, simpler and far more secure. You are talking about doing most of the same work ie cutting radius arm brackets, caster correction etc.

IMO there is too much rotational force to rely on U bolts to retain a x-link. You will still have to fabricate a centre pivot along with brackets to facilitate U bolts, there would be less fabrication to make it as a weld on installation.

I see no advantage in bolt on, and lots of potential downside, and probably more expense in the long run.

The only thing the U Bolts will need to do is keep the pivot point from moving forward. Considering that all the force should be up/down, and perhaps some to the rear, the U-Bolts will take very little force on them.

As I've said before, welding is still the ideal solution, but not everyone is interested in doing so.

edit: the white 80 you have pictured has a home made version of the x-link on it and at the time of the pic was running 7" springs and 38s

Crankycruiser has a beautiful rig, and has done some very nice work to it. He and I have talked quite a bit about his "Cranky Link," and he's fed me plenty of ideas (including a few others I'm hoping to use ).

 

[NKP Garage]

Looking at the big picture, I have some doubts that even going with an x-link setup would allow for more movement in the front unless proper springs are used along with it. My thoughts on this right now are

1) Would a better spring setup allow for enough front end movement to avoid the need for an x-link setup?

2) Say you do go with better springs up front, would the additional cost of going x-link at that point along with the better springs net enough of a benefit to justify the cost/effort? Considering you already have better springs at this point and more front end movement?

3) How much front end movement are the people with better springs such as the F.O.R. setup and other similar springs getting without going to an x-link (or similar) setup?

The reason I ask these things... is maybe there's a better way to go about getting the extra front end suspension travel? Just thinking out loud to help your brainstorm process on the subject.

 

[Ebag333]

Looking at the big picture, I have some doubts that even going with an x-link setup would allow for more movement in the front unless proper springs are used along with it.

Every little thing adds up. Ask anyone who's done the small hitch pin mod. Regardless of how much or how little lift you have, pulling your front radius arm bolt is going to give you more flex. It might only give you a little bit more flex (couple of inches), but it'll be more.

Now an X-Link takes that mod and takes it one step further. Instead of just letting one radius arm pivot more, it lets both radius arms pivot.....while keeping the axle from rolling under the radius arms (which pulling both front bolts would do).

My thoughts on this right now are

1) Would a better spring setup allow for enough front end movement to avoid the need for an x-link setup?

Regardless of what spring you use, the hitch pin mod, a 3 Link, a Y-Link, or an X-Link will all allow for more front end movement. Now can you use so much spring that it's largely a moot point? Sure. You could use 10" springs and then the gain you'd see from this would be greatly reduced. But there would still be some gain. Is that worth it to you? Maybe...maybe not.

2) Say you do go with better springs up front, would the additional cost of going x-link at that point along with the better springs net enough of a benefit to justify the cost/effort? Considering you already have better springs at this point and more front end movement?

That's going to be a question that's up to each person. For myself, I'd like to have the front end do more work regardless of the lift I have.

3) How much front end movement are the people with better springs such as the F.O.R. setup and other similar springs getting without going to an x-link (or similar) setup?

Good question. Maybe someone with the FOR springs can ramp their truck, then do the hitch pin mod and ramp it again, and see what results they get. The results of pulling the hitch pin will be similar to an X-Link, though the X-Link would allow for even more movement.

The reason I ask these things... is maybe there's a better way to go about getting the extra front end suspension travel? Just thinking out loud to help your brainstorm process on the subject.

And you like playing devil's advocate, don't ya?

All good questions. From what I've heard, regardless of the springs/shocks used, folks complain about the front end being stiff as a board.

On my last wheeling run several times I almost drove my body into a rock because the front axle moved, and the body wanted to follow it down. If the front end had been more supple, then this wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[-Spike-]

The reason I ask these things... is maybe there's a better way to go about getting the extra front end suspension travel? Just thinking out loud to help your brainstorm process on the subject.

The bind in the front axle radius arm setup is the single biggest limiting factor. Remove that bind and the front axle should flex like the rear, which is very good. Travel isn't the issue, it's to be able to use the travel on either side independently of the other- aka flex.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Part of the forces on U bolts would come from rotational force through the pivot pin when braking. As the x-link removes the fixed attachment at the front bush on both radius arms, when braking, the diff housing is going to want to rotate, bolt on installation would rely on Ubolts to stop this rotational force twisting the Ubolts

I agree that having x-link shaped to fit closer to the diff is not necessary, it would improve clearance in some situations.