Interest: Bolt on X-Link

[Ebag333]

What's more likely to happen: a non weight-bearing, non-stress bearing bumper or slider "falling off" or a suspension component with limited testing done to it failing?

Come on now, don't lawyer up on me.

Quit dodging the question and just answer it. Why doesn't the same logic apply? The chances of "a non weight-bearing, non-stress bearing bumper or slider falling off" (which isn't strictly true as there is quite a bit of weight on those) doesn't really matter.

They can come loose, I'm sure we've all heard or know (or personally experienced) a case where a bolt, nut, or u-bolt has come loose or backed out.

Certainly with the amount of abuse some people put on their sliders, I could easily see the u-Bolts failing. Heck, people bend or break them fairly regularly.

 

[Atticus]

Come on now, don't lawyer up on me.

Quit dodging the question and just answer it. Why doesn't the same logic apply? The chances of "a non weight-bearing, non-stress bearing bumper or slider falling off" (which isn't strictly true as there is quite a bit of weight on those) doesn't really matter.

They can come loose, I'm sure we've all heard or know (or personally experienced) a case where a bolt, nut, or u-bolt has come loose or backed out.

Certainly with the amount of abuse some people put on their sliders, I could easily see the u-Bolts failing. Heck, people bend or break them fairly regularly.

You've got to be kidding me. I am really a little confused here. I think I am being very clear. I'm not dodging anything at all. Frankly, I think you have just decided what you think, and you are more interested in defending your position than you are in finding out what the truth is. That's a dangerous perspective to have at this stage of your proposed production.

Could an ARB bumper fall off? Yes possibly, but no more easily, or more likely, than a factory bumper falling off for the same reasons. I mean, stuff falls off cars all the time. Just drive on the highway and look for detritus. But, if a suspension component like what you are selling fails, the chance of a serious accident occurring approaches certainty. Big difference.

 

[Ebag333]

You've got to be kidding me. I am really a little confused here. I think I am being very clear. I'm not dodging anything at all. Frankly, I think you have just decided what you think, and you are more interested in defending your position than you are in finding out what the truth is. That's a dangerous perspective to have at this stage of your proposed production.

Could an ARB bumper fall off? Yes possibly, but no more easily, or more likely, than a factory bumper falling off for the same reasons. I mean, stuff falls off cars all the time. Just drive on the highway and look for detritus. But, if a suspension component like what you are selling fails, the chance of a serious accident occurring approaches certainty. Big difference.

So you're saying that because the chance of a serious accident occurring is higher, the person who installs it cannot know that it could possibly damage their vehicle when they modified it.

Nor would they have to prove that the X-Link itself failed and not something else (like say the rear OEM mounts), the judge would just automatically assume it's all my fault.


I don't see how one automatically follows the other, but I'm not a lawyer.



(And while, yes, I've changed my mind on how to handle this, it's not the same as how I was considering it intially, so I've removed several options that I was considering, thanks to both yourself and Slee. So don't get all pissy here. )

 

[CreeperSleeper]

Gabe, if I were you, I would build the x-link for yourself and have everything on paper. At that point, you could sell the plans to anybody who wanted to build there own. That way you would be limitied on your liability and will still be helping people out.

 

[Ebag333]

Gabe, if I were you, I would build the x-link for yourself and have everything on paper. At that point, you could sell the plans to anybody who wanted to build there own. That way you would be limitied on your liability and will still be helping people out.

Everything I do will be documented here, that was the plan from day one. It will not be difficult to replicate it. If anyone wants to build their own, I'm more than happy to assist them, no need for selling the plans.

One option I'm considering is just fabbing up the brackets and selling those. It'd require welding, but then the only item that would need to be purchased would be the steel for the arm, which is the most expensive part to ship anyway.

The brackets are the complex part, if the steel I have for the arm works out, it was a total of $26 and I got enough for 2 arms. Figure another $20-30 for someone to zip on a couple of welds, and it's not really all that expensive to complete the "kit".

 

[Atticus]

So you're saying that because the chance of a serious accident occurring is higher, the person who installs it cannot know that it could possibly damage their vehicle when they modified it.

Nor would they have to prove that the X-Link itself failed and not something else (like say the rear OEM mounts), the judge would just automatically assume it's all my fault.


I don't see how one automatically follows the other, but I'm not a lawyer.



(And while, yes, I've changed my mind on how to handle this, it's not the same as how I was considering it intially, so I've removed several options that I was considering, thanks to both yourself and Slee. So don't get all pissy here. )

I didn't say either one of those things. We're talking about two separate things, and now I see where I confused you.

1. Liability: there would be no way to insulate yourself from liability for harm caused to third persons who did not sign a release and waiver.

2. Cost of production: because of the increased risk associated with both an accident occurring, and that accident being serious, the insurance underwriting for a project like this would be heavily slanted toward the insurer. Costs would be high for you to be sufficiently insured against a claim.

I hope that this is more helpful.

 

[RedTacoma]

out of curiosity. Is this is similiar to what is discussed? I am trying to imagine x-link.

 

[Ebag333]

I didn't say either one of those things. We're talking about two separate things, and now I see where I confused you.

You did say those two things in regards to LT's MAF mod. My only question was, why do those apply to LT's MAF mod, but not other mods that have a higher chance of serious failure?

I understand the degree is different, and we are talking about separate applications here. I also understand that in a court of law the prosecutor is going to make me out to be an evil villain who knowingly manufactured parts designed to kill people, while it's a little harder to do that with LT's MAF mod.

I also understand that neither of those statements apply to a third party (which is probably where you're looking at it, while I've already acknowledged that there's nothing I can do about a third party and moved on).

1. Liability: there would be no way to insulate yourself from liability for harm caused to third persons who did not sign a release and waiver.

2. Cost of production: because of the increased risk associated with both an accident occurring, and that accident being serious, the insurance underwriting for a project like this would be heavily slanted toward the insurer. Costs would be high for you to be sufficiently insured against a claim.

I hope that this is more helpful.

Both points that you've stated before, and points I agree with. Very succinctly worded though.

 

[-Spike-]

Is this is similiar to what is discussed?

No, that's a 3 link.

 

[Atticus]

You did say those two things in regards to LT's MAF mod.

No I didn't.

 

[-Spike-]

How to Fit an X-Link with pics - DownUnder4x4

 

[Clint Z]

Build it and they will come!

Just build the X-link and test it. If you want to sell the plans or brackets then it will help out those of us that are riding the fence for running it on a DD/wheeler. I want to say thank you for trying to build something different even against the advise of the bolt on crowd. I say go for it!

Clint Z

 

[Ebag333]

No I didn't.

Must be some other cat named Atticus, who likes cheetos.

Why? Assuming I could prove that his MAF damaged the engine, what's the difference? In his case, he doesn't even have a liability waiver (at least as far as I know). You could certainly bring up his debates with Slee to show that he knew that there was a possibility for engine damage, yet sold them anyway.

(Again, not picking on you LT, you're just a handy example.)

Because you knew that it could possibly damage your engine when you modified it. And then you'd have to hire an expert to prove that his part, and not something else, damaged the engine, or you'd lose on summary judgment. Assuming that you did that, and proved that you did not assume the risk of damage to your engine, you could pay about 60k to get back the damage caused to your engine, probably around 2k.

Great investment.

Emphasis mine.

(And on the last part, ever heard of small claims court? Maybe $500 for a couple grand return. Yes, great investment. )



Anyway, while I actually do find this fascinating (mostly in a horrible-trainwreck-I-can't-look-away as it's illustrating how messed up our legal system--and people in general--are), and I do appreciate Slee and Atticus's info, it's getting rather side tracked.





Just need to knock out some time this week to fab up the bracketry, and who knows, maybe even tack weld some stuff into place if I'm feeling crazy.

 

[Doc]

E-bag, have you ever produced/ marketed/ sold a product to the public before?

Please try it on a small scale first. Sell something innocuous for cheap on e-bay. See how that goes for a while.

I used to be in the buisness of manufacturing leather good for cars (not on shane's scale!). I used to make leather boots for shifters, e-brakes, etc... I sold them for YEARS (maybe 6?) on e-bay. You would not believe the kind of idiots you encounter by selling to the public. Seriously, I can not fathom how some of the knuckle heads I encountered got dressed in the morning.

If there's anyway to screw something up, sell enough of them and someone will find it. I had people cutting holes in leather shift boots and then trying to return them when they didn't fit right. People buying them for vehicles that they were not advertised for, and then returning them because of fitment issues. People complaining that it took me 24 hours to ship an item. People complaining that the item was damaged in shipping (and it was odviously used), etc...

There seems to be a large population that refuses to accept any culpability of their own and will resort to finger pointing and screaming at the vendor at the first possible opportunity.

Just keep that in mind.

Have you ever installed something and had bolts/ washers/ stuff left over after the install? You always ask yourself- hey were those included as extras by the manufacturer, or did I FORGET SOMETHING? This is a complex piece of suspension and if some shade tree mechanic forgets a nut or washer here and there.... you see where this is going. They won't remember the pile of 'extra' parts when a problem arises, and they'll come banging on your door.

 

[RedTacoma]

How to Fit an X-Link with pics - DownUnder4x4

Thank you ...

 

[Ebag333]

E-bag, have you ever produced/ marketed/ sold a product to the public before?

Yup.

Not that this would be to the public public. More like a public MUD, ala what LandTank and others have done.

I used to be in the buisness of manufacturing leather good for cars (not on shane's scale!). I used to make leather boots for shifters, e-brakes, etc... I sold them for YEARS (maybe 6?) on e-bay. You would not believe the kind of idiots you encounter by selling to the public. Seriously, I can not fathom how some of the knuckle heads I encountered got dressed in the morning.

I work in IT for my day job. Supporting people who do not know anything about computers. (I literally had to walk someone through how to turn on a monitor the other day. And it took 15 minutes. )

That there are stupid people out there is no surprise to me. I would hope that MUD would have a higher average than that, though.

If there's anyway to screw something up, sell enough of them and someone will find it.

As soon as you create something that is idiot proof, someone will invent a better idiot.

There seems to be a large population that refuses to accept any culpability of their own and will resort to finger pointing and screaming at the vendor at the first possible opportunity.

Agreed, though I hope MUD is better than that. (Chat does not encourage me in that regard.)

Have you ever installed something and had bolts/ washers/ stuff left over after the install? You always ask yourself- hey were those included as extras by the manufacturer, or did I FORGET SOMETHING? This is a complex piece of suspension and if some shade tree mechanic forgets a nut or washer here and there.... you see where this is going. They won't remember the pile of 'extra' parts when a problem arises, and they'll come banging on your door.

I understand.

If this works out the way I'm hoping it will, it will require 6 bolts that will all be the same size, 3 per side. It really will be very simple, though again I realize that even very simple ("Press...the...button....") can be (somehow) complex.

 

[RedTacoma]

Sorry for my ignorance but wouldn't that got bashed on the rocks? What happens when it is bend? Do you need to realigned again?

 

[Ebag333]

Sorry for my ignorance but wouldn't that got bashed on the rocks? What happens when it is bend? Do you need to realigned again?

Same exact thing that'd happen if you bent a control arm.

That's why you design it in such a way that it doesn't bend.

 

[RedTacoma]

Same exact thing that'd happen if you bent a control arm.

That's why you design it in such a way that it doesn't bend.

How much twist that needs? maybe there is a way to run it behind the axle.

 

[Ebag333]

How much twist that needs? maybe there is a way to run it behind the axle.

Well, you'd have to *SERIOUSLY* bend it to make the rig underivable. I bent a rear control arm pretty bad and didn't even notice it.

I considered running it behind the axle, but you run into a couple of problems.

1) A lot more stuff gets in the way back there.
2) The brake lines run behind the axle, so you have to relocate or work around those.
3) The mount for the control arm isn't spaced away quite as far as the front mount, so there's less room to work with. The new mounts might have to space the control arm further away.


I'm planning on running a 1/4" I beam as the arm itself. Considering how well my 1/4" sheet has held up for my skid plate, I think that should hold up okay.

I'm considering boxing in one side of the I beam, so that it's even stronger. I don't think it's really needed, but it'd strengthen it for rock hits.