improving flow for the 3FE’s top end (9 Viewers)

[RockDoc]

Here's the 2 lifters that have a bit of pitting. Corresponding lobes have a similar pitting at the apex. The rest look fine. Interestingly, these two straddled the #3 journal, where oil is passed up to the rocker assembly I guess when I'm talking to the Delta guys on Monday I'll have to find out if they can remedy these or I need to track down a couple others.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Those look terrible. I'd say a resurface is in order. At least ask if they can be saved. If not, I am pretty sure I have a couple of extras.

 

[RockDoc]

Those look terrible. I'd say a resurface is in order. At least ask if they can be saved. If not, I am pretty sure I have a couple of extras.

If they say nay on refreshing these, I may be hitting you up for a couple that can be resurfaced with the rest. How are those interior panels treating you?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

If they say nay on refreshing these, I may be hitting you up for a couple that can be resurfaced with the rest. How are those interior panels treating you?

Good, that's why I offered.

 

[RockDoc]

 

[Trollhole]

From my understanding CCOT has some good economical lifters.

Also has anyone ever thought to trying to find a roller application? There has got to be something out there that would work for us.

 

[ntsqd]

Just need to compare the OD and the oil port band location to common roller cam lifters. A hyd roller cam option would be really cool!

 

[RockDoc]

Just need to compare the OD and the oil port band location to common roller cam lifters. A hyd roller cam option would be really cool!

Is that something you find in one of those new-fangalled hydraulic lifter-equipped engines?

 

[FJ40Jim]

RockDoc,
Do you think there is some kind of deficiency in the combustion camber design or fuel delivery that creats the need for higher octane fuel?

What need for hi-octane? W/ the 8.3:1 head, the 2F will run on 86 octane.

The static compression is so low. I think my 3FE has a slight part throttle detonation problem because of dirty injectors(poor spray pattern?). It passed smog with flying colors but.

An engine with bad injectors and carboned chamber will rattle. That's pretty standard.

What mods are done to the advance curve on these motors?

Timing needs to be taken out in the midrange. The stock USA curve has a whole bunch of advance too soon to compensate for the removal of CR that comes w/ EGR. When the EGR is disabled, the timing needs turned back because the flame travel speeds up considerably.

Has anyone ever had the cam grind on a cam doctor to determine all of the timing events?

Rockdoc and yspen have posted all the timing events for the commonly available cams.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Fixed (I think)
Jim, if you are watching....
You mentioned you have a 2F running a DCR of 7.8 and it needs better than regular gas... and that the stock value (which I posted as 7.55) was close to the limit for regular..... Given that I've revised the stock value to 7.14, (7.24 for the 3FE), do you feel that 7.24 is close to the limit, or would 7.4 be safe on a desmogged motor?

Wait, now I have to revise my numbers...
OK, my rattly test mule is 7.66DCR.

Plenty of engines have been built at 7.3-7.4. They run fine w/ a non-smog advance curve and 87 octane.

A 2FE with a stock 2F cam and no head shave will yield a DCR of 7.38....
As I posted somewhere earlier, I was planning on a DCR of 7.4 with a 260 cam and a chamber volume of approximately 73cc......which I think is still the plan, but with a Delta KC 859 regrind rather than the MAF.....

That should be fine, especially w/ the better AF management of tuned port EFI.

I suspect my rattly carb'd engine is actually rattling only the lean or hot cylinders.

FWIW, I do not believe that the pictured cam and lifters are fresh. That looks like every other 2F/3F cam out of a 150K+ engine. Not a 5K engine.

 

[FJ40Jim]

A couple questions:
1) Anybody have any good tips for removing the timing gear from the camshaft without a press? Is striking the nose of the cam through a socket kosher?

If the hammer or socket would get out of position and hit the edge of the cam snout, then it will be that much more difficult to drive the cam through the gear.

I've used a conventional 2-jaw gear puller to get the gear off w/ cam in engine. Heat the gear hub w/ the propane torch to decrease the interference fit.

2) Is there a functional difference between a 2F lifter and a 3FE lifter (different part number on toyodiy)? Two of my 2F lifters have slight pitting... was thinking I would pull a couple out of my spare 3FE... or can Delta deal with some pitting?

Don't remember a difference, but I don't have a 3FE disassembled right now to compare. Just looked in the FederalMogul parts book, they have different PN's for E-87 F/2F vs 88-92 3F.

 

[ntsqd]

Just need to compare the OD and the oil port band location to common roller cam lifters. A hyd roller cam option would be really cool!

Is that something you find in one of those new-fangalled hydraulic lifter-equipped engines?

Nope. Usually there is an oil hole in the side of the lifter. Either for the hydraulic lifter function or for oiling the rocker arm, or both. Even if there are no such functions in the 2/3F/E lifters, where that hole is located on the proposed roller lifter relative to the engine's lifter oil galley is important to the function of the proposed roller lifter. It must be exposed to engine oil pressure at least in the lower 50% of it's travel and I believe ideally it is always exposed to oil pressure. Not sure how the galley geometry looks on these engines, in U.S. vee-ate's the lifter body nearly always has a reduced diameter that corresponds to the oil galley location in the block. This allows the oil to flow past that lifter and onto the next one. The oil port is usually drilled in this reduced diameter portion.
As an aside, it used to be a common trick to use SBF lifters in some racing SBC's because they were a little larger in OD. That slightly larger OD allowed for a slightly more aggressive opening ramp. Some race engine builders used to (& may still) bore all of the lifter bores excessively large, and then sleeve them back down to size. The point being that now the builder knows that the lifter bores are square and can spec that cam to be exactly at the limits. So boring (& possibly sleeving) lifter bores is not all that novel of an idea.

Just making this conversion is probably worthy of a whole new thread.

 

[RockDoc]

FWIW, I do not believe that the pictured cam and lifters are fresh. That looks like every other 2F/3F cam out of a 150K+ engine. Not a 5K engine.

The pictured lifters cam out of this block, ~250 000 miles from what I was told. The pictured cam I'm told was ~6000 miles in a MAF HiPo with crippled oiling. I should grab a better picture....

I've used a conventional 2-jaw gear puller to get the gear off w/ cam in engine. Heat the gear hub w/ the propane torch to decrease the interference fit.

I'll give that another try with more cowbell this time (and more heat), didn't seem to move before, but I didn't give it my all either..

Don't remember a difference, but I don't have a 3FE disassembled right now to compare. Just looked in the FederalMogul parts book, they have different PN's for E-87 F/2F vs 88-92 3F.

Thanks.



ntsqd - Unless I'm mistaken, there is no oil gallery running along near the lifter bores in these engines, just passive oiling from higher drainage.

 

[RockDoc]

Can see the wiping of the lobe on the right, and chipping-off of hardened material along the margin of the lobe on the left. Comparing this cam to the stock that came out of my block, the reduction of base circle is quite noticable.

You can see how the peak of the lobe has been rounded down. The solid timing gear that came on this cam will still be a nice addition though.

 

[lehiguy]

Just need to compare the OD and the oil port band location to common roller cam lifters. A hyd roller cam option would be really cool!

There really would not be a benefit to running roller lifters on a 2F. The cam profiles that can be obtained with the roller geometry would be lost on a tractor motor like these. Furthermore, the real challenge would be the anti-rotation hardware required with roller lifters. While virtually anything can be re-engineered with enough time and money, I believe this falls into the "Turd Polishing" category.

 

[ntsqd]

I agree that the challenge would be fitting the anti-rotation hardware, but disagree that the increased area under the lift curve and the reduction in friction offered by a roller lifter design would not be of any benefit. Whether it is worth the effort wouldn't be known until tried. Lack of an oil galley would likely kill the whole idea. I'm kinda surprised that it doesn't, but I tend forget the basic design's age. It's slightly older brother was still using dippers for it's rod bearing lubrication.

 

[fliphkd778]

I think I've seen somewhere retrofit kits for older chevy inline sixes with flat tappets. Something like this maybe?

 

[lehiguy]

I think I've seen somewhere retrofit kits for older chevy inline sixes with flat tappets. Something like this maybe?

That would be it. It is theoretically possible to do it with the 2F. It would require a very tall lifter and some shorter push rods. By the time all that is done you might as well go to the next step in put in the 350 with a roller cam. Been there, done that!

 

[RockDoc]

Just got off the phone with Delta.... I was surprised, when I mentioned it was for a cruiser right off the bat the guy asked if it was a 2F or 3F, I guess they deal with enough Toyota guys to know what's going on

Gonna go with the KC-859 262* duration cam that always gets mentioned. I wondered if there was an grind intermediate between that and the stockish 250-S that Yespen has been wondering about, but it sounds like their other offerings are hotter than the 262*.

He said resurfacing lifters with a touch of pitting isn't an issue, so I'll send down the 12 I have.

 

[RockDoc]

A new 2-jaw puller, a snow bank and a propane torch = camshafts and timing gears separated