How much boost can 1HZ-T handle? (1 Viewer)

[ForealBoreal]

Talking to the guys at crosscountry4x4.
Their work 75 ute is a 1hz turbo, 33s, top mount intercooler running 15lbs. Can't get over 380deg post turbo with the tune apparently.
Dyno'd at 116rwkw.

Warranty huh:
http://www.steves.co.za/Road tests/Toyota-Land-Cruiser.html

http://www.turboglide.com.au/turbo-kits/toyota-coaster-1hz-42-turbo-kit-fitted
Unlimited km warranty.

 

[Dougal]

Here:

Hulsty's buddy running his 75 daily driven ute.
14lbs boost, gt2876, w2a ic, 12mm pump from a 1hd-ft dyno'd awhile back at 118rwkw.
Safe pre turbo max pyro temps.
Hes putting 20lbs into it at the moment with no issues that I have heard of...

20psi with a decent intercooler on a 1HD-T would net you around 200kw at the crank at 3,600rpm.

I'm using 80% VE, 260 g/kwh, 17:1 A/F ratio, 70% comp, 60% intercooling to get those figures.
Fuel is ~95 cc/1000 shots.

My 4BD1T with 20psi from a tiny T25 and no intercooler isn't far off 200hp (crank).
I tried to get a photo of the boost gauge at 24psi and the EGT gauge at 750C, but couldn't hold the camera steady enough.

Did you know, the stock 1HZ injection volumes are within a few percent of the stock 1HD-T injection volumes?
On the same fuel loading, the 1HD-T produces 380Nm and 125kw. The 1HZ produces 285Nm and 96kw.

That is the difference in efficiency relating straight to power and torque.

Graeme should be able to tell us what a stock 1HD-FTE puts to the wheels. It's likely around 118kw on about 12psi boost with a tiny intercooler (about A4 paper size).

BTW, the figures on that dyno plot don't add up.
Power = force x velocity, but if you multiply out the tractive effort and velocity on their charts you get 387kw. I'd like to believe the 147hp figure and the curves, but none of the other numbers are true.
Post turbo EGT's are useless.

Crushers sold his old 75 to a guy running 14lbs boost, propane injection, intercooled and its still ticking apparently.

Crushers has been quoted saying max boost breaks engines. Does that mean he never drove that one at 14psi?

 

[ForealBoreal]

20psi with a decent intercooler on a 1HD-T would net you around 200kw at the crank at 3,600rpm.

BTW, the figures on that dyno plot don't add up.
Power = force x velocity, but if you multiply out the tractive effort and velocity on their charts you get 387kw. I'd like to believe the 147hp figure and the curves, but none of the other numbers are true.
Post turbo EGT's are useless.

Crushers has been quoted saying max boost breaks engines. Does that mean he never drove that one at 14psi?

I'm using the 1hd-t as a comparison. FT and FTE are 24v engines.... Stick to the 12v stuff.... Yes the 1hd-ft and fte are producing crazy numbers. I think that is sweet, would love to own a 1hd-ft.

Graeme also has sold one of his new Grunter 2's to a fellow with a 1hz running 22lbs of boost which got 203hp at the rear wheels...
Sounds pretty real to me.

I will agree with you that post egt's are useless. Which is why I think people cook 1hz's because they don't know how hot the engine is truly running. Unsafe tunes. Though there are people out there getting these hp numbers on Pre-turbo measurements....

Crushers can also be quoted saying:

if you are achieveing the max boost then it isn't the boost that is going to kill your engine... it is your right foot.

People change their opinions on things. Relax.

 

[gerg]

So do 1hzs have reinforced ring lands? do they commonly trash their pistons with high boost? What usually breaks these motors, just find the weak link and build it up. I dont think its a which is best sort of deal here, but how to maximise the hz isnt it? If the hz has the same bottom end as the h1dt then it should handle quite a bit as far as 12mm plungers, I have yet to see a pic of a brand new pre cup break. Perhaps it has happened, but ive never seen any first hand reports myself. I wold think if you did it up right and ran it on the lean side with more then safe egts it should last pretty well wouldnt you think?

 

[ForealBoreal]

So do 1hzs have reinforced ring lands? do they commonly trash their pistons with high boost? What usually breaks these motors, just find the weak link and build it up. I dont think its a which is best sort of deal here, but how to maximise the hz isnt it? If the hz has the same bottom end as the h1dt then it should handle quite a bit as far as 12mm plungers, I have yet to see a pic of a brand new pre cup break. Perhaps it has happened, but ive never seen any first hand reports myself. I wold think if you did it up right and ran it on the lean side with more then safe egts it should last pretty well wouldnt you think?

I don't believe they do stock (your talking bout alfin inserts right). Though you can buy aftermarket ones that have them.

People tend to cook pistons from running bad tunes (high egts) Mainly I think because of post-egts numbers.

I agree with you fully.
So if your truly worried and are willing to re-piston it.
My other guesses which could help are:
Throw in some ported and polished pre-cups.
Could throw in some ARP studs to really hold the head down.
Some ceramic coating (debatable)
Then I think the limit is the crank but even then I think it can take a beating far worse than I would ever throw at it.

 

[Dougal]

Graeme also has sold one of his new Grunter 2's to a fellow with a 1hz running 22lbs of boost which got 203hp at the rear wheels...

Link?

So do 1hzs have reinforced ring lands? do they commonly trash their pistons with high boost? What usually breaks these motors, just find the weak link and build it up. I dont think its a which is best sort of deal here, but how to maximise the hz isnt it? If the hz has the same bottom end as the h1dt then it should handle quite a bit as far as 12mm plungers, I have yet to see a pic of a brand new pre cup break. Perhaps it has happened, but ive never seen any first hand reports myself. I wold think if you did it up right and ran it on the lean side with more then safe egts it should last pretty well wouldnt you think?

What I'm seeing:
High compression (some are 22:1) causes high mechanical stress on crank, rods, piston and head.
Weak pistons, thin crowns, no ALFIN inserts.
Possibly cast instead of forged cranks.
Heads with prechamber pockets weaking them (obviously).
Heads liable to develop steam pockets at high power levels.

Remedies:
Crank from stronger engine.
Aftermarket pistons.
Lower compression ratio (might start okay at 19:1).
Head steam vents or high temperature coolant.
Massive radiator and fans.
Lean fuel/air ratios.

There are a few $$ right there. Likely more than a 1HD-T.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Here:

A quote from Graeme: http://www.lcool.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=230408&highlight=#230408 Yes he does mention the 1hdte being superior in the post. Leave it alone we are talking about the 1HZ. This was his second choice....

Or I would build a 1HZ. They have a bad reputation, but its going to get better. The bottom end is far stronger than the TD42 and is the same as the 1HD-FTE (once you upgrade the conrods). Keeping your air fuel ratios above 19 is the key, or towing 22. And more boost not less helps. This is the reason that Z()ltan running 25psi and racing it hasnt had an issue and hes been doing that for years.

And here. I stand corrected. 200hp not 203hp.. Woops.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/704921-1hz-turbo-injectors-2.html

Diesel Central recently did a 1HZ with 200hp at wheels (Gturbo Grunter 2 @ 22psi) and the injectors were std spec. For all the TD42 engines, the injectors are also usually std even in the 250-300whp range. Some however do custom injectors above the 250whp range.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Link?

What I'm seeing:
High compression (some are 22:1) causes high mechanical stress on crank, rods, piston and head.
Weak pistons, thin crowns, no ALFIN inserts.
Possibly cast instead of forged cranks.
Heads with prechamber pockets weaking them (obviously).
Heads liable to develop steam pockets at high power levels.

Remedies:
Crank from stronger engine.
Aftermarket pistons.
Lower compression ratio (might start okay at 19:1).
Head steam vents or high temperature coolant.
Massive radiator and fans.
Lean fuel/air ratios.

There are a few $$ right there. Likely more than a 1HD-T.

Gerg swears by that evans waterless coolant. Might be a good option. Throw a 4 core rad into it also. Should fix any cooling woes.

I have tried looking for head steam vent info on TD42s.
Do you have anything I can read or check out?

 

[Dougal]

And here. I stand corrected. 200hp not 203hp.. Woops.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/704921-1hz-turbo-injectors-2.html

Crunching the numbers.
200hp, 4000rpm, 22psi boost, 300g/kwh, 80% VE, 60% eff comp, 60% intercooling.
Gives you 400Nm at 4000rpm, 20:1 A/F ratio. 170kw at the crank.

It all checks out.
But again, if we apply the same fuel (83.3 cc/1000 shots) to a 1HD-T with 18:1 A/F ratio and 250 g/kwh we get:
204kw at the crank.
18psi boost required.

It would appear the #1 upgrade required for a 1HZ is a 1HD-T head and pistons.

 

[TheBigBoy]

It's funny you should mention that Graeme. I had a guy the other week wanting more power out of HZ with that kit. He came around and I was reading 15:1 aswell.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Crunching the numbers.
200hp, 4000rpm, 22psi boost, 300g/kwh, 80% VE, 60% eff comp, 60% intercooling.
Gives you 400Nm at 4000rpm, 20:1 A/F ratio. 170kw at the crank.

It all checks out.
But again, if we apply the same fuel (83.3 cc/1000 shots) to a 1HD-T with 18:1 A/F ratio and 250 g/kwh we get:
204kw at the crank.
18psi boost required.

It would appear the #1 upgrade required for a 1HZ is a 1HD-T head and pistons.

Highly doubt he would be revving that engine to 4000rpm to get numbers like that. Probably 3500 +- a little.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=8002644&postcount=219

So if that was done with a Grunter 2 (slightly older one yes) running the same psi I think the 1hz holds its own pretty well...
Yes the 1hd-t will get better fuel economy achieving this. I suspect it wouldn't be off by much.

The clutch did slip here but I think even in that case if it was at 205 or say 210hp the 1hz still does a fine fxxxing job at keeping up.

 

[gerg]

I am a big fan of evans for the IDIs. I think isolated boiling and heat disparity is a major concern for these heads as they shed alot of heat, especially in the pre cup which is quite localized area to have such high temps. I would think it would be a prime suspect for vapor locking in the jacket. Then you can get some serous run away temps. If you were to add ceramic coating to all of the combustiuon surfaces as well as the intake and exhaust runners you might lessen the overall heat disparity in the head and lower your chances of cracks. However, evans has a lower thermal transfer than glyco/water which is a major bummer.

So I always hear that IDI heads are weaker then DI heads, but exaclty how do they fail other then the cracks inbetween the valves. I agree that they are weaker as they have less material due to the cup, but I dont get how they can "fail" with high power levels. What exactly does "fail" mean anyhow. I can see how they crack with high egts cooking one side and stressing the head out due to a great temperature disparity, but with just pure combustion pressure I have never seen chunks missing, or stuff melted or any overt damage. If failing is cracking, then runing lean is a really good idea again to lower the temp differences in the head as well as other bennifits.

If the motor has non reinforces pistons, then I guess you have to change them regardless of increased power, just purely for longevity it would be a good idea.

How much does a used 1hdt crank go for?

This is a fair chunk of work, and I might be simpifying it, but seems doable?

 

[gerg]

It would appear the #1 upgrade required for a 1HZ is a 1HD-T head and pistons.

Heh now your just being cheeky Doug.

 

[Dougal]

So I always hear that IDI heads are weaker then DI heads, but exaclty how do they fail other then the cracks inbetween the valves. I agree that they are weaker as they have less material due to the cup, but I dont get how they can "fail" with high power levels. What exactly does "fail" mean anyhow. I can see how they crack with high egts cooking one side and stressing the head out due to a great temperature disparity, but with just pure combustion pressure I have never seen chunks missing, or stuff melted or any overt damage. If failing is cracking, then runing lean is a really good idea again to lower the temp differences in the head as well as other bennifits.

Other than cracking, flexing enough for the head-gasket to leak could be a problem.

 

[Dougal]

Highly doubt he would be revving that engine to 4000rpm to get numbers like that. Probably 3500 +- a little.

Stock power on a 1HZ is at 3,800rpm.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=8002644&postcount=219

So if that was done with a Grunter 2 (slightly older one yes) running the same psi I think the 1hz holds its own pretty well...
Yes the 1hd-t will get better fuel economy achieving this. I suspect it wouldn't be off by much.

It doesn't hold it's own at all. For the same 83cc/1000 shots fuelling you need more boost (18 vs 22psi) and you generate less power (170 vs 204kw).

 

[gerg]

Yeah I could see the gasket being an issue. ARPs have worked well for me, but I didnt up the combustion pressure so I really couldnt coment that way. I did up my stud clamp pressure from 87ftlbs to 118ftlbs and I think from memory that increased the clamp load to almost double stock given taht the ARPs camp harder than a normal bolt at the same torque. I chose 118 cus that was the max tensile the ARP stud could handle without yealding and I wanted to be able to reuse them. ARP did make a higher quality stud with greater tensile ratings for many other applications, but mine they only made in the basic strength rating. I didnt notince any increased blow by as I thought I might deform the block. I did break like 5 sockets in the process which was really fun. Especially when I fell on my pressure washer.

 

[crushers]

Karter,
I turbo'd that HZJ75 back in 2003, fuel cranked, propane fitted conservatively, no intercooler. i drove it HARD, black smoke pouring out when the throttle was down. EGTs at 1400 max. max boost was set at 14PSI. 2.5" exhaust, lift with 35s.
i sold it a couple years later.
it ran well for him.
he sold it last year to a gent in Ontario. i had the pleasure of taking it for another spin without the propane system. it still pulled nicely. ran smoothly. this is 10 years and a couple hundred thou later.

but

according to Douglass, it should have died a painful death years ago.
plus
according to Douglass, it should have returned pitiful fuel mileage. it was on par with the HDJ81s i have driven and the power of the HZT was noticeably better than the HDT.

But the god of books will never admit he might be wrong, too proud for that. Even though more and more people have been able to experience both the HDT and the HZ.

if you were toyota and you wanted people to buy a more expensive engine, would you openly admit to the public that it actually returned poorer fuel mileage? of course not.

i have no desire to waste time with Douglass in debating the fuel mileage issues nor the ability of the 1HZ to be turbo'd and still reliable. he is like an ostrich with his head in the 'sand', his 'sand' is book knowledge.

 

[daboheme]

There is only one logical conclusion. It must be a miracle.

 

[TheBigBoy]

Karter,
I turbo'd that HZJ75 back in 2003, fuel cranked, propane fitted conservatively, no intercooler. i drove it HARD, black smoke pouring out when the throttle was down. EGTs at 1400 max. max boost was set at 14PSI. 2.5" exhaust, lift with 35s.
i sold it a couple years later.
it ran well for him.
he sold it last year to a gent in Ontario. i had the pleasure of taking it for another spin without the propane system. it still pulled nicely. ran smoothly. this is 10 years and a couple hundred thou later.

but

according to Douglass, it should have died a painful death years ago.
plus
according to Douglass, it should have returned pitiful fuel mileage. it was on par with the HDJ81s i have driven and the power of the HZT was noticeably better than the HDT.

But the god of books will never admit he might be wrong, too proud for that. Even though more and more people have been able to experience both the HDT and the HZ.

if you were toyota and you wanted people to buy a more expensive engine, would you openly admit to the public that it actually returned poorer fuel mileage? of course not.

i have no desire to waste time with Douglass in debating the fuel mileage issues nor the ability of the 1HZ to be turbo'd and still reliable. he is like an ostrich with his head in the 'sand', his 'sand' is book knowledge.

Where is your real evidence? What afr's was it running? Did it have a compensator. I bet you 1 million$$$ I can tune the DT at 14 psi with no intercooler to run better, faster and better eco.

 

[gbentink]

The clutch did slip here but I think even in that case if it was at 205 or say 210hp the 1hz still does a fine fxxxing job at keeping up.

What a fun thread!

Sorry, but the dyno posted was a 1HD-T with the current Gturbo Grunter 2

Now... in Perth here, there is a 1HZ with a Grunter 2 (old one) at 132kW at wheels max. It lives a hard life. It has upgraded rods and pistons.

Its running 22:1 AFR and 23psi. Makes 516nm (dyno back calculates this) at 2250rpm. I calculate its getting ~ 93cc fuel (11mm Diesel Central Inj Pump) with efficiency of 264gm/kWh (at 2250rpm). Peak power (at crankl) is ~ 170kW at 3600rpm (~300gm/kWh).

This particular engine is getting a Gturbo Bad Boy Stage 2, a 12mm Inj Pump, Big Airbox, water to air intercooler, custom intake manifold and 30-35psi.

At 18.5:1 and 140cc @3600 (320gm/kWh) .... should be interesting - I'll let Dougal run the numbers on those fuel figures

Oh btw, should have on dyno in 2 weeks.