How do I paint it? (1 Viewer)

[Joe45]

Howdy.
Planning a frame-off resto-mod for my HJ45.
Do you guys recommend sandblasting the paint off the body panels? I've heard of risks of warping the metal, but seems like Land Cruisers have pretty thick panels.
I see a couple of areas where there will likely be a hole or become a hole, in which case I will cut out the bad stuff and weld a piece of sheet in there.
I don't want a show truck-I want an overlanding rig that will be used. Have also thought of military type paint, but I've done it before and the flat seems to attract greasy spots and adsorb tree sap, etc.

I'd like to paint the HJ that Toyota Olive.

Have also considered this stuff called STEEL-IT, which would avoid priming because it bonds to metal, and can be welded on. Right now they only have black and gray, but may come out with other colors like olive green. Won't be the olive Toyota has, unfortunately, but it's at least worth considering.

The wet blasting also looks promissing-if I can find a cheap machine at HF or something.

 

[Malleus]

It depends on whether you're removing paint or paint + rust. The former will turn out better if you use washing soda, the latter will need washing soda for the paint and sand for the rust. Any small parts you can remove will be better finished by bead blasting, if the surface is rough, otherwise use soda. Depending on where you are, walnut shells may be cheaper, but not as good, IME.

I wouldn't use sand, of any size on panels I was going to paint. The surface will be crap, you'll have to finish sand the whole thing, plus it'll be hot - you'll have to deionize it or it'll rust before you get from one end to the other.

You have to treat the sandblasted panels you rust treat this way.

 

[Joe45]

It depends on whether you're removing paint or paint + rust. The former will turn out better if you use washing soda, the latter will need washing soda for the paint and sand for the rust. Any small parts you can remove will be better finished by bead blasting, if the surface is rough, otherwise use soda. Depending on where you are, walnut shells may be cheaper, but not as good, IME.

I wouldn't use sand, of any size on panels I was going to paint. The surface will be crap, you'll have to finish sand the whole thing, plus it'll be hot - you'll have to deionize it or it'll rust before you get from one end to the other.

You have to treat the sandblasted panels you rust treat this way.

OK
So using sand will cause it to rust quickly and leave a crappy surface.
Soda will leave a nice finish and not rust as fast.

I'll be looking into that. Thanks!

 

[Malleus]

To be clear, any bare metal will flash rust due, to humidity. The level of humidity has little bearing on how much rust will form; the composition of the steel is the greater determining factor.

The point I was making about using sand is that it generates a significant static electric charge. All blasting does this, but sand is the media that will generate the largest charge. The negative static charge attracts positively charged water molecules 9or maybe it's the other way around; it's been a while since I've thought about this and my college chemistry book isn't nearby) which then combine with the bare steel and become rust. Water based blasting doesn't have this problem; the water neutralizing the charge as soon as it accrues. Sand blasters who prep automotive panels know they have to wash the steel after blasting to prevent flash rust; they use an acid solution to both neutralize the rust and static charge. A weak acid is all that's required.

The best advice I've been given is to follwo cleaning and stripping, using any method, with a zirconium phosphate solution. This both protects the metal form oxidation and simultaneously provides a surface for the primer to adhere to, prior to paint. Remember, paint isn't designed to stick to metal; it's designed to stick to primer. Primer is designed to stick to metal.

The main difference (for me) between sand and soda is the finish that's left behind after the surface coating (paint, etc) is removed. Sand is more aggressive and can remove paint, primer and rust. Soda will only remove paint, and then only the upper, and maybe loose, layers. Sand requires at least three levels of sanding afterwards, soda, will likely need only one, or maybe a second in spotty areas.

HTH

 

[Joe45]

To be clear, any bare metal will flash rust due, to humidity. The level of humidity has little bearing on how much rust will form; the composition of the steel is the greater determining factor.

The point I was making about using sand is that it generates a significant static electric charge. All blasting does this, but sand is the media that will generate the largest charge. The negative static charge attracts positively charged water molecules 9or maybe it's the other way around; it's been a while since I've thought about this and my college chemistry book isn't nearby) which then combine with the bare steel and become rust. Water based blasting doesn't have this problem; the water neutralizing the charge as soon as it accrues. Sand blasters who prep automotive panels know they have to wash the steel after blasting to prevent flash rust; they use an acid solution to both neutralize the rust and static charge. A weak acid is all that's required.

The best advice I've been given is to follwo cleaning and stripping, using any method, with a zirconium phosphate solution. This both protects the metal form oxidation and simultaneously provides a surface for the primer to adhere to, prior to paint. Remember, paint isn't designed to stick to metal; it's designed to stick to primer. Primer is designed to stick to metal.

The main difference (for me) between sand and soda is the finish that's left behind after the surface coating (paint, etc) is removed. Sand is more aggressive and can remove paint, primer and rust. Soda will only remove paint, and then only the upper, and maybe loose, layers. Sand requires at least three levels of sanding afterwards, soda, will likely need only one, or maybe a second in spotty areas.

HTH

Great information! Thank you!
I was thinking of vinegar as a weak acid, but you mentioned zirconium phosphate-so that would be the way to go then?

I will look for a water based blaster that's not expensive. If that doesn't work, then I'll go with a regular one. I could use sand for places that are hidden, like underneath and the frame, and soda for the body panels.
The vehicle seems to be in pretty good shape, with a few rust spots.
I've heard people say not to take it to the metal, but instead to leave it at the primer and paint over that. Seems logical, as why remove good primer only to prime again. In that case, seems like an orbital sander with a finer grit and light pressure is better. Am I correct?

 

[Malleus]

There are pros and cons to water based blasters. Check out Keith Rucker's thoughts on the subject.

Most often, you'll want to use blasting instead of hand sanding (with or without powered equipment) when you have a large area to remove surface coating from ( rust or paint). Hand removal is always less aggressive and therefore safer for the ultimate goal of surface preparation, although not always quicker.

Whether you remove the old primer or not depends largely on what it is, and what primer/paint you want to overlay. Your paint supplier can best advise on which combinations are best, based on the products you buy.

If you're buying Rustoleum, or something similar, you're on your own; test panels are a good way to ensure success. I'm not belittling Rustoleum at all, @JackA has a gorgeous 40 cum 45 he painted with it. Just saying there will be less manufacturer's information than you'll likely get if you use a more expensive brand/formula.

 

[Joe45]

There are pros and cons to water based blasters. Check out Keith Rucker's thoughts on the subject.

Most often, you'll want to use blasting instead of hand sanding (with or without powered equipment) when you have a large area to remove surface coating from ( rust or paint). Hand removal is always less aggressive and therefore safer for the ultimate goal of surface preparation, although not always quicker.

Whether you remove the old primer or not depends largely on what it is, and what primer/paint you want to overlay. Your paint supplier can best advise on which combinations are best, based on the products you buy.

If you're buying Rustoleum, or something similar, you're on your own; test panels are a good way to ensure success. I'm not belittling Rustoleum at all, @JackA has a gorgeous 40 cum 45 he painted with it. Just saying there will be less manufacturer's information than you'll likely get if you use a more expensive brand/formula.

Interesting.

How do I know what primer I have? My truck seems to be original paint, but a few spots under the hood and under the dash area have revealed a green paint.
I don't want to use Rustoleum. I am pretty much decided on the Toyota Olive Green 653.

I think this is just a gorgeous color.

Also, the light bezel. I like that instead of white (which doesn't go with that green) or black (which I don't think looks good on these vehicles), it's a sort of tan/cream color. Beautiful!
Mine will get a camper on the back, but I plan on building a trailer with a similar canvas, but in a more mustard color.

 

[Waorani]

You're a long way from painting. Suggest you do a lot more research on painting between now and then if you're planning on doing it yourself.

Agree the olive green looks good.

 

[Joe45]

You're a long way from painting. Suggest you do a lot more research on painting between now and then if you're planning on doing it yourself.

Agree the olive green looks good.

Indeed!
I'm trying to gather as much information as I can in order to do it correctly.

 

[Waorani]

I recently helped paint a friend's '56 Oldsmobile. Three of us combined probably had over a hundred hours of sanding, filling, sanding, priming, sanding, filling, priming, sanding, priming, sanding, priming and on and on. The actual painting was only a couple of hours not including masking. Prior to all this I went with owner to paint supply shop for DTM primer, primer/surfacer, sprayable filler, and initial supplies. That bill was over $500. A later purchase of a gallon of single stage white and half gal of turquoise was almost $800. In between all of that was a few more hundred for sandpaper and various sealers/fillers/etc. Not counting our time, he had close to $2k in the paint job by the time it was done. And that was after $800 to have it blasted. Turned out nice but certainly not show quality.

I got involved mainly for the learning experience. The main thing I learned is that I don't want to do it again and that automotive paint/supplies are expensive. Add to that the manhours involved I can easily see why high end paint jobs can be into the many thousands of dollars. That said, I may still try to paint my FJ40 myself if I ever get to that point. I'm not dealing with rust/rot so I don't think the prep would be nearly as extensive as a '50s lead sled.

 

[Malleus]

Interesting.

How do I know what primer I have? My truck seems to be original paint, but a few spots under the hood and under the dash area have revealed a green paint.
I don't want to use Rustoleum. I am pretty much decided on the Toyota Olive Green 653.
View attachment 3395950

I think this is just a gorgeous color.
View attachment 3395951

Also, the light bezel. I like that instead of white (which doesn't go with that green) or black (which I don't think looks good on these vehicles), it's a sort of tan/cream color. Beautiful!
Mine will get a camper on the back, but I plan on building a trailer with a similar canvas, but in a more mustard color.

The only way I know to identify the primer is to paint over it. If the paint isn't new(ish), it's probably not water based. Oil based paint will paint over anything.

 

[1MAC]

I took my 40 to a local auto body stripper who blasted everything with crushed glass (not sand) and then immediately sprayed everything in PPG epoxy primer. That is the best way to get rid of all the rust at once and preserve the sheet metal while you take your time working on the panels. You can apply filler over the epoxy and it will adhere better than to bare metal.

 

[pb4ugo]

I am by far no expert. All I can offer my recent experiences with painting the dog house(new oem fenders, bib, fender aprons and hood) on my 40, I had been getting it ready for the road and wanted it to be painted inside and out. I had a friend walk me thru some of the painting prep. I stripped my hood to bare metal inside and out with a polycarbonate wheel on a drill from Harbor Freight. In the tight spots I used a 1/4" die grinder with poly abrasive discs. The bib and aprons I sand blasted along with the hinges and small hardware. I figured they were robust enuff that they wouldn't warp, plus they had some real tight nooks and crannies. I had real tight areas in the hood I couldnt get to so I lightly sand blasted those. The fenders were new so I scuffed the per the primers instructions. The key for me was the paint store I went to. A good paint store wants you to succeed. A lot of paint manufacturers have systems. My paint store handles PPG products and sold me PPG's Omni system. I took in a panel I polished from the the 40 which was the inside of the fuel fill hose covers which weren't exposed to much daylight and they scanned it for color(freeborn red). I told them what I was doing and they guessed on the amount of paint I would need. I have some left over, so I've been doing some smaller parts. They sold me the epoxy sealer, 2K epoxy primer which could be mixed to be a high build primer and single stage top coat, along with the reducers and hardeners. They also gave me mixing cups, stir sticks and filter funnels. Each one of these paints come with a data/instruction sheets. They tell you how to mix the paint, what grit sand paper to use if your covering a painted surface or bare metal along with gun tip size and flash times, etc. One of the most beneficial comments I got from the manager of the store was the sealer had to be top coated or primed within 72hrs. Beyond 72hrs the sealer would have to be scuffed, which I've read can be a pain in the ass. I've also did a lot of reading and watching videos, especially on gun setup. So, I started working on my time lines so I could have certain panels sealed then either primed with 2k primer or top coated with color with in the timeline. I purchase hvlp paint gun from Harbor Freight and went to town. I happy with the results. I didnt do a lot of body work. The high build primer was adequate to get some of the imperfections out. My hood has the spot welds showing and I knocked out some dents b4 painting. The fenders were new. I'm not a body guy. At some point I'll be painting the rest of the tub and maybe work the hood a little more. I now know the underlying panels are solid and have been sealed, so In the future I could do some body work to them and prep them just by scuffing the paint. Now I can work on the tub. It has places where I'll have to cut out and replace. Then I'll probably paint the tub and maybe do some repainting. My goal is to have minimal to no filler. I'm OK with factory spot welds. It is what it is, a solid, fairly straight driver, hiding nothing. The next family member can do the frame off after I'm gone.

 

[Joe45]

I recently helped paint a friend's '56 Oldsmobile. Three of us combined probably had over a hundred hours of sanding, filling, sanding, priming, sanding, filling, priming, sanding, priming, sanding, priming and on and on. The actual painting was only a couple of hours not including masking. Prior to all this I went with owner to paint supply shop for DTM primer, primer/surfacer, sprayable filler, and initial supplies. That bill was over $500. A later purchase of a gallon of single stage white and half gal of turquoise was almost $800. In between all of that was a few more hundred for sandpaper and various sealers/fillers/etc. Not counting our time, he had close to $2k in the paint job by the time it was done. And that was after $800 to have it blasted. Turned out nice but certainly not show quality.

I got involved mainly for the learning experience. The main thing I learned is that I don't want to do it again and that automotive paint/supplies are expensive. Add to that the manhours involved I can easily see why high end paint jobs can be into the many thousands of dollars. That said, I may still try to paint my FJ40 myself if I ever get to that point. I'm not dealing with rust/rot so I don't think the prep would be nearly as extensive as a '50s lead sled.

I can feel your pain!

With the HJ, at least there aren't as many curves to worry about: mainly right angles. At least that's a hopefully outlook I'm hanging on to...

 

[Mace350]

I bought and used a wet blaster from a company in Australia, great product...used coal slag from local TSC and it worked great. It flash rusted immediately afterwards so once dry I wire wheeled all I could then block sanded the rest by hand. Its a weighing game, for me the flash rust wasn't a big deal as the paint removal was so much easier I didn't mind removing the flash rust. Here is their contact info if you go down that path, keep in mind you need a powerful pressure washer. sales@ablesales.com.au

 

[Joe45]

I bought and used a wet blaster from a company in Australia, great product...used coal slag from local TSC and it worked great. It flash rusted immediately afterwards so once dry I wire wheeled all I could then block sanded the rest by hand. Its a weighing game, for me the flash rust wasn't a big deal as the paint removal was so much easier I didn't mind removing the flash rust. Here is their contact info if you go down that path, keep in mind you need a powerful pressure washer. sales@ablesales.com.au

Thanks!