How come I have to blip the throttle to get my 3b to run when cold?

[roscoFJ73]

Looks like those plugs will only fit where they are supposed to. 1 looks like it should be for the oil pressure sender. Im pretty sure that ones for your dash gauge.

What is the black sender above the oil pressure gauge sender?

 

[samwise]

Nice videos and pictures, that helps. First I recommend reading through threads about "funky chicken" EDIC, etc theres lots of good stuff on here, but have to take time searching and reading.
Ill try to answer but I am by no means even close to a knowledgeable person on here, really search and read, the only things I know are from here and messing around with stuff.

Assumptions:

1. If the oil pressure switch was already unplugged, then the EDIC was not stopping the injection pump due to a low oil pressure signal. Therefore, oil pressure is not the problem.
2. The oil filter has oil and therefore is not contributing to an oil pressure issue. Ive had the wire not hooked up and then touch something and ground out and shut mine down before, (not common) and still good to verify oil pressure, gauge is cheap and easy.
3. The EDIC operates normally. The EDIC can appear to operate normally for days or weeks then randomly do its thing, warm or cold, you can also check the fuel control relay, in a BJ60 its under the dash along the passenger sidewall, reading on that will be in the EDIC threads.
4. Because the EDIC operates normally, my hard starts are not due to the EDIC malfunctioning. see above, also look at your starting and glow plug relays, grounds, fusible links, etc
5. If the oil pressure switch was unplugged, maybe it should be replaced with a new one anyway.
6. If the EDIC is operating normally and I am still having a hard time starting the engine when cold, then my glow plugs may be failing.
7. Because I am getting plenty of fuel and the truck runs normally once warm, it does not sound like a fuel problem.
8. Given assumptions 1-6, my glow plugs may be the culprit, even though my circuit test of them this morning showed that they were "working". You should verify they are getting the right amount of voltage (not sure on what this is with a 24v truck) and that it follows the superglow and afterglow (if you have these) usually the intial light up stage on the dash is the super glow then, thats off, and you start, then the afterglow is determined by the water temp sensor I believe, this can be done with the bus bar on. You will see higher voltage with the superglow then it will drop off to lower, then off completely. You can test the individual glow plugs as well by taking them out and using a multimeter, i believe its in the manual, and you can youtube it ( dont quote me on any of this!)
You can also have a leaky fuel line or injector, etc that will let a small amount of air in and only be a problem on start up but cause rough starting.
These are old vehicles with lots of rust and corrosion so these issues often pop up and can be difficult to track down


For your connectors I think 1 is also your sender unit, at least mine has a similar yellow black wire, and 2 is likely the low oil switch, or #3? 3 and 4 may go to your thermostat housing depending on your set up, in looking at my BJ60 I have only 4 wires coming off one wire bundle, 2 are the oil send and switch, and the other two go to the T stat housing, and they appear similar but not exact, Ive replaced a lot of my connections so I am not sure what the originals looked like.

I hope that helps some, again Im not even close to a expert on here.

 

[bcsteel]

Have you tried looking into the cannon plug from your EDIC motor to the main harness? Make sure the connections inside the plug are clean and no wires are cracked or damaged. Follow that back to make sure it hasn’t worn through and grounding out? On my current 42 the harness looked great. After closer inspection and flipping it over the underside had worn through and started to chafe badly. Also, I had a bj45 once that did some weird stuff like you are describing. Turned out to be a hair line crack in the water separator that was letting in a minor amount of air in the system. Another buddy had a hair line crack in the fuel line post injection pump that caused some weird antics.

A good head lamp is your best friend when working on these trucks. All just suggestions at this point but they are cheap, except the light.

Nice Truck by the way

 

[Reinhardtius]

Looks like those plugs will only fit where they are supposed to. 1 looks like it should be for the oil pressure sender. Im pretty sure that ones for your dash gauge.

Thanks. OK, we are learning some stuff. I think:
#1 is for the oil pressure switch (yellow and black wire)
#2 is for oil pressure sender
No idea what #3 and #4 are, maybe as @samwise suggested, they are for the thermostat housing?

What is the black sender above the oil pressure gauge sender?

The black cable is a ground to the engine, which runs to a non-OE battery kill switch (see photo 1 for updated illustrations).

An update:








I welcome your opinions on what I plan to do next:
1. Test voltage of all glow plugs. If not, replace them all.

If that does not fix it, then I'll consider the steps in the 3B manual (mentioned on post 16), and other ideas mentioned above.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Maybe the PO added that wiring to power an accessory. One of those switches/ sender if for the dash gauge. Is the other for the EDIC? Sorry noisy background and didn't hear all the sound.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

Photo 1 looks like the sender for the oil pressure gauge inside the dash cluster. #3 in photo 2 looks like the connected for photo 1. Not sure of the others..

Is your rig 12 or 24v? Your plugs may be good but a lot of the time people put the wrong plugs in for the voltage and super glow... I have pulled 24v (21v technically) plugs out of plenty of B series engines that actually need the 14v for the super glow to work correctly (in a 24v rig). Essentially they were getting only 3 seconds of normal glow and then a trickle glow so that led to poor starting...

 

[roscoFJ73]

What you have labelled with a red arrow is what I would call an oil pressure sender. It has no switching purpose. If thats corrosion, you can buy these cheap . Any Toyota car or landcruiser from the 80-90s have them and they are interchangeable.Diesel and petrol are the same.
I just checked the parts diagram, it is labelled a "sender" part number 83520-60010

And the other is officially called "SWITCH ASSY, OIL PRESSURE (FOR ENGINE)" part 83530-30060.

If you do have a spare wire, it may have been the earth for the sender. For some inexplicable reason, Toyota gave some senders an earth nib ,while others were earthed through the engine block. They seem to work ok with or without.

 

[Reinhardtius]

What you have labelled with a red arrow is what I would call an oil pressure sender. It has no switching purpose. If thats corrosion, you can buy these cheap . Any Toyota car or landcruiser from the 80-90s have them and they are interchangeable.Diesel and petrol are the same.
I just checked the parts diagram, it is labelled a "sender" part number 83520-60010

And the other is officially called "SWITCH ASSY, OIL PRESSURE (FOR ENGINE)" part 83530-30060.

If you do have a spare wire, it may have been the earth for the sender. For some inexplicable reason, Toyota gave some senders an earth nib ,while others were earthed through the engine block. They seem to work ok with or without.

Doh! I think I have flipped-flopped the part names. The sensors and switches are covered in corrosion. I would like to replace them, but I don't want to open a can of worms trying to extract them if you think that they will be a nightmare to get out safely.

Any warnings or advice to offer me there?

Photo 1 looks like the sender for the oil pressure gauge inside the dash cluster. #3 in photo 2 looks like the connected for photo 1. Not sure of the others..

Is your rig 12 or 24v? Your plugs may be good but a lot of the time people put the wrong plugs in for the voltage and super glow... I have pulled 24v (21v technically) plugs out of plenty of B series engines that actually need the 14v for the super glow to work correctly (in a 24v rig). Essentially they were getting only 3 seconds of normal glow and then a trickle glow so that led to poor starting...

The truck is 24v, so yes, it does require the 14V (and has superglow) according to you and the glow plug thread.

Do you also mean to say that if the wrong plugs are in there, I could still be getting the right voltage on them with the multimeter, and wrongly infer that the plugs are functioning normally, when in fact, they are the wrong ones?

In any case, which of the glow plug options would you go for? Toyota 19850-68060, NGK Y-197R, Denso DG222
Bosch GPT217, Champion CH104, HKT PT141? Again at this stage, I am not sure if plugs are the problem and I don't yet know if they are getting proper voltage.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

What I mean is that sometimes people put 21 volt plugs in where they are supposed to get 14v. In that case the super glow system will still work, albeit a little differently.

Superglow essentially hits a 14v plug with 24v for a short time to superheat the plug. I think the max is about 3-4 seconds. Then the system switches the power to 12v for 10-30 seconds depending on the ambient temperature and therefore the resistance on the plug (hotter plug means more resistance).

If you have 21v plugs in the system, then you get a 3-4 second regular glow, and then a half glow for a long time. Essentially everything would read normally, you are putting 24v to the plug for 3-4 and then 12v for a afterglow. Your meter would not show anything unusual, but your plugs would still not be very warm.

Hope that helps...

 

[Reinhardtius]

What I mean is that sometimes people put 21 volt plugs in where they are supposed to get 14v. In that case the super glow system will still work, albeit a little differently.

Superglow essentially hits a 14v plug with 24v for a short time to superheat the plug. I think the max is about 3-4 seconds. Then the system switches the power to 12v for 10-30 seconds depending on the ambient temperature and therefore the resistance on the plug (hotter plug means more resistance).

If you have 21v plugs in the system, then you get a 3-4 second regular glow, and then a half glow for a long time. Essentially everything would read normally, you are putting 24v to the plug for 3-4 and then 12v for a afterglow. Your meter would not show anything unusual, but your plugs would still not be very warm.

Hope that helps...

Very clear now, thank you. That also means that, to be sure that they are 14V, I will need to remove and likely replace the plugs (I can't imagine that they will exactly say on the side "14V glow plug". I will just go Toyota OE unless someone has a strong preference and recommendation for one of the other brands.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

@Reinhardtius there should be at least a part number etched into the top of the plug. I think some put the voltage as well, but with a part number you should be able to look it up..

 

[roscoFJ73]

I would like to replace them, but I don't want to open a can of worms trying to extract them if you think that they will be a nightmare to get out safely.

The sender should come out ok. I think it has a hex on it somewhere. The thread will have oil on it, so it wont be corroded.

 

[Reinhardtius]

Plugs installed are:
OEM 14V 19850-68060
067100-1460 14V 70

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

And each is testing good on continuity? Looks like the plug type is correct, now to test each one. If they test out good, then we need to put our thinking caps on and look too the next possible culprit.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

I just watched the first video you posted... Have you tried glowing until the light turns off, then waiting until you hear a click of the after glow relay shutting off, then doing it all again, and then starting the truck? Sometimes in cold temps, my 2B needed a few glow cycles to start without skinny pedal help...

 

[Reinhardtius]

I see something

And each is testing good on continuity? Looks like the plug type is correct, now to test each one. If they test out good, then we need to put our thinking caps on and look too the next possible culprit.

I will get a multimeter to test resistance of plugs, and to ensure voltage to the plugs is normal.

I just watched the first video you posted... Have you tried glowing until the light turns off, then waiting until you hear a click of the after glow relay shutting off, then doing it all again, and then starting the truck? Sometimes in cold temps, my 2B needed a few glow cycles to start without skinny pedal help...

Yes, I did try that, and it didn't work. In fact, it was worse. The truck did not start.

But, I saw something unusual that may be a lead! The EDIC behaves differently when cold on start-up vs. when warm. Specifically, when starting-up with a warm engine, the EDIC pushes the rod back as soon as the key is turned to the on position (don't know why it does that, maybe to shoot some fuel in?). When the engine was cold tonight, the EDIC did not do anything when the key was turned. It did not move.

See here:

EDIC behavior when warm:

EDIC behavior when cold:

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

It's been a while since I've worked on a B series, but the EDIC behavior looks a bit unusual... Have you read the EDIC funky chicken threads? I wonder if your issues are related.

 

[Reinhardtius]

The sender should come out ok. I think it has a hex on it somewhere. The thread will have oil on it, so it wont be corroded.

Thanks, you are right. I put the calipers to it and it's a 27mm hex. It looks like it will come out OK. If the troubleshooting leads me that way, I'll order a replacement and install.

It's been a while since I've worked on a B series, but the EDIC behavior looks a bit unusual... Have you read the EDIC funky chicken threads? I wonder if your issues are related.

Yes, I read the funky chicken thread, which focused on a ground issue and slightly different symptoms. I don't have a wavering EDIC control rod.

Before I get ahead of myself:
1. Can anyone confirm that the EDIC is behaving normally when cold starting?

2. And, could anyone explain why the EDIC goes to an overinject position (that is an overinject position, right?) when I glowed the plugs when the engine was already warm? How come the behavior is different once warm? Should it be?

I don't understand why the engine is not starting if, even when cold, the EDIC goes to an overinject position. It's like the engine isn't getting fuel, but I unscrewed the fuel pump plunger and there is plenty of fuel pressure there. I had to turn open the bleeder nipple to let some fuel out to even get the plunger back down!

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

When you cold start... And it doesn't start... Do you get any smoke out of the tailpipe? What if you crank for a bit without it starting?

Over inject is normal for all starts IIRC. In your warm start it goes to over inject for a short time and them drops back to run... In your cold, it goes to over inject but stays due to the engine not starting... I'd have to look at a wiring diagram for your rig to see what could be affecting the start besides glow and EDIC... It's an odd issue... And the fact that the issue started after an oil change is also bugging me...

 

[tornio]

excuse me Reinhard , have you tried disconnect to edic motor arm and then start the engine ? doing that you can see if the issue is edic related...