HJ47 welcome here? (1 Viewer)

[lostmarbles]

Pulling the little plastic piece off the bottom exposes most of it to view. The 'S' terminal is connected to nothing but a rivet on the Bakelite platform (!). In pictures one and two you can see the tip of a pen touching the 'S' terminal blade......

I can hear Amaurer saying "told you so" even from this distance HJ.

....Hey Tom (LostMarbles): could you do me a favor and check with Toyota New Zealand to see if glow plug relay 28610-68010 is available? If it is, I would like to order one, if you would help out with that by any chance? Let me know, thanks! If you have a paypal account that would be a simple way to transact this, otherwise, a money order from the post office would be no problem.

I'll try and phone the local Toyota dealer sometime tomorrow HJ

 

[lostmarbles]

And here's a picture from the FSM showing the relay arrangement that Toyota used with the BJ40, where the relay activated a warning light when the plugs were glowing. It seems there are tow separate relays inside, and indeed when I take the one I have apart, there are two separate solenoids. This was the factory version of the 'Wilson Switch', where there is a momentary switch on the dash to apply additional glows to the plugs after starting the engine (the momentary switch is illustrated at the upper right of the diagram).

I think what they are calling "glow plug indicator light" here is exactly the same thing they were calling "glow controller" in the other wiring diagram (that Amaurer posted) HJ

And I don't follow the "wilson switch" bit. It looks to me like it would reactivate the starter as well as turning the glow plugs back on. (The diode looks to be in the wrong place).

And other things don't make sense in it too.

 

[Henry James the 47th]

I think what they are calling "glow plug indicator light" here is exactly the same thing they were calling "glow controller" in the other wiring diagram (that Amaurer posted) HJ

And I don't follow the "wilson switch" bit. It looks to me like it would reactivate the starter as well as turning the glow plugs back on. (The diode looks to be in the wrong place).

And other things don't make sense in it too.

Well, I have seen these set ups on trucks around here, and have pulled a wiring harness out of a dead one. There is a momentary rocker switch on the dash marked 'Glow', which is pushed, if needed, after going through the normal glow cycle at the ignition switch and starting. I've got one in a box around somewhere, and I'll try to take a picture of it this afternoon.

The dash-mounted button does not reactivate the starter, any more than the set up I have will reactivate the starter. In my set up, the ignition switch will be used as the momentary switch (remember I am using a 60 series column and ignition). As for the light vs. controller issue, I can't be sure. The symbol within the diagram where they call is a light does look very much the same as the 47 series diagram showing a controller.

Thanks for checking with your local dealer about that part Tom

 

[amaurer]

Glad you sorted it out; no gloating from me, the S terminal is, frankly, baffling.

I think what they are calling "glow plug indicator light" here is exactly the same thing they were calling "glow controller" in the other wiring diagram (that Amaurer posted) HJ

And I don't follow the "wilson switch" bit. It looks to me like it would reactivate the starter as well as turning the glow plugs back on. (The diode looks to be in the wrong place).

And other things don't make sense in it too.

I agree; for one, the relay seems to be set up to bypass the "light" all together. Conventional electrical logic says that using the wilson switch would turn on the starter, and that the glow plug light/controller would never light up!

There may be more to the relay than this diagram suggests...

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Glad you sorted it out; no gloating from me, the S terminal is, frankly, baffling.

I'm with you in terms of being baffled. I can only wonder if that relay had other applications where the internals were wired up differently, or whether there is some sort of electrical principle that I don't grasp (I'm sure there are many).

I agree; for one, the relay seems to be set up to bypass the "light" all together. Conventional electrical logic says that using the wilson switch would turn on the starter, and that the glow plug light/controller would never light up!

There may be more to the relay than this diagram suggests...

I don't agree with you here, except for the part about the possibly being more to this than meets the eye.

Toyota wouldn't put a 'Glow' push button on the dash for decoration, and they wouldn't set it up so that it would would turn on the starter after the engine was already running. Actually, the starter would be turning while the initial ignition-switch controlled glow was still underway - as you mentioned in an earlier post above. After the starter gets the engine running, the 'Glow' button (a momentary style rocker switch) can be pressed to turn the glow cycle on again. It no more turns on the starter than in the conventional glow phase from the ignition. The starter is activated only when the key moves to the 'ST' position on the ignition barrel, where it can only be held temporarily as a spring in the barrel draws the barrel back to 'ON' after the starting has been accomplished.

I was talking to John at Radd Cruisers this morning, and he said that some systems kept glowing while the starter was being cranked, and some did not - it seemed to vary with the year. I wonder if this system was unique to Canadian trucks? Of course, when it comes to diesel 40 series cruisers, the fact that the FSM diagram says "USA and Canada" models is a bit of a red herring since no diesel trucks were delivered into the US market, AFAIK. It should say "Canada-specification" to be accurate.

In Canada, 1982 brought the intro of the Superglow system to both 40 and 60 series rigs - but not in Australia where my particular truck comes from, again, as far as I am aware. I would be interested to know if the Superglow system was used at all in ARL-spec. Landcruisers during the final few years of 40 series production. Can anyone speak to this?

Anyway, I definitely have a LOT more to learn about electrical systems, and also realize that I have managed to come a long way since last year when I started this project in terms of grasping the electrical stuff. It's not nearly so daunting as it was for me.

I picked up my brand new starter today as well as the re-built alternator. The alternator worked fine, however one of the brushes turned out to be cracked and the shop also replaced a bearing, so it's in good shape now. While I was at the starter shop, I picked up a marine grade buss bar to use as a mount for my fusible links, so I can move away from the side-post set up.

So, with this new buss bar, and the switch back to the original 47 series glow relay, once again I reconfigured the mounting bracketry on the inside of the right apron. I didn't bother taking pictures of that, since I've already had two previous go rounds and I suspect everyone might be getting a little tired of seeing brackets welded to the apron.

Anyhow, the apron brackets for the relays and buss are re-done and the apron is re-primed.

The new starter is back on the engine as is the alternator, and they're hooked up, ready to roll. Tomorrow I will make the minor changes to the harness to accommodate the 6-wire glow relay, and if all goes well I should be able to turn the engine over for the first time in over a year. I'm looking forward to that.

Once I have ignition Houston, I can deal with the last problem area in the wiring, which is the wiper motor. I am wondering if it's a simple wiring goof up or whether I can't use a regular 40 series wiper motor in tandem with a 60 series wiper relay with intermittent. If I can't, then I'll have to scratch my head a little more I guess.

 

[lostmarbles]

I'll try and phone the local Toyota dealer sometime tomorrow HJ

I was too busy spraypainting this morning but I made an enquiry this afternoon HJ. (It is one of my rostered days off work.) I've been told that "Glow plug relay 28610-68010 is unavailable in NZ".

The parts guy I spoke to just now (at Rutherford and Bond Toyota - Wgtn) has Emailed Japan for the "price and availability" and will get back to me Monday.

So I will relay what he says then on to you. (But I think we both know what the outcome will be. )

 

[lostmarbles]

......I can only wonder if that relay had other applications where the internals were wired up differently............

I think this is the likely answer HJ.

...I don't agree with you here, except for the part about the possibly being more to this than meets the eye.
Toyota wouldn't put a 'Glow' push button on the dash for decoration, and they wouldn't set it up so that it would would turn on the starter after the engine was already running. Actually, the starter would be turning while the initial ignition-switch controlled glow was still underway - as you mentioned in an earlier post above. After the starter gets the engine running, the 'Glow' button (a momentary style rocker switch) can be pressed to turn the glow cycle on again. It no more turns on the starter than in the conventional glow phase from the ignition. The starter is activated only when the key moves to the 'ST' position on the ignition barrel, where it can only be held temporarily as a spring in the barrel draws the barrel back to 'ON' after the starting has been accomplished.....

I think you are misinterpreting what Amaurer and myself are saying here. We don't doubt the existance of a "dash-mounted glow switch/button" (perhaps even a "factory-installed" one). But that wiring diagram you posted doesn't make sense to us.

We are assuming that the dash-mounted switch/button supplies 12V +Ve to the WG-colourcoded wire on the top right of the relay. (Sorry but I can't read the terminal ID.) If it were to do so, we are simply saying that it would crank the starter too. (We are simply reading the diagram.)

If the diagram came from a Toyota Manual - Don't assume it is free from errors. The Toyota publications are like most other similar publications (that are full of technical information) in that THEY HAVE QUITE A NUMBER OF ERRORS.

PS. I agree with what Amaurer says about terminal S too. Once again - For this diagram to work, S must be connected to nothing internally (despite your diagram saying otherwise).

...I was talking to John at Radd Cruisers this morning, and he said that some systems kept glowing while the starter was being cranked, and some did not - it seemed to vary with the year. I wonder if this system was unique to Canadian trucks? Of course, when it comes to diesel 40 series cruisers, the fact that the FSM diagram says "USA and Canada" models is a bit of a red herring since no diesel trucks were delivered into the US market, AFAIK. It should say "Canada-specification" to be accurate. ...

Amaurer's BJ42 originated from NZ so it is effectively "Australian-spec". If his kept glowing while cranking - Then I think mine will too. And if you're using the same set-up, then perhaps you might as well copy that feature? (Don't you reckon?)

....In Canada, 1982 brought the intro of the Superglow system to both 40 and 60 series rigs - but not in Australia where my particular truck comes from, again, as far as I am aware. I would be interested to know if the Superglow system was used at all in ARL-spec. Landcruisers during the final few years of 40 series production. Can anyone speak to this?......

I always thought the superglow came to this part of the world too, but was fitted to only later models. (Probably not fitted at all to the BJ40 or BJ42 models here though - but I could be wrong about this.)

Perhaps you could PM Rosco? (He's active on the diesel forum and has lots of good info and lives in Western Australia.)


LATE NEWS BROADCAST - Rutherford and Bond just rang back. (They received a superfast reply from Japan.) - Unavailable there as we expected to hear)

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Hey thanks Tom for checking into that relay. I knew as soon as you wrote that they were checking with Toyota Japan that I was out of luck, since I've already checked there. I appreciate that you went to the trouble though!

My comment about "Canadian Spec." was in reference to the FSM list Bj40 as "for USA and Canada"(when none went to the US), and the fact that this push button glow system seems to be particular to Canadian trucks, as I've not seen any examples of it in trucks from anywhere else.

You wrote,

"Do you mean to say that the 28610-68010 was original on your HJ47?"

Yes, exactly, that is the relay that came with my truck. I don't have access to the downloadable EPC since I have a Mac, but I do have print print outs of the EPC relating to some parts of my truck. Listed for my truck, from October 1981 through to June 1985 is relay number 28610-68010 (same number as what I have). For April 1981 to Oct 1982, they list relay number 28610-46031, which was also used in trucks with the B and 3B engines. I'm not sure what the difference is exactly between these relays.

Here's a wider angle shot of the wiring diagram for the BJ40 in my FSM - perhaps the added info will make the function clearer - and then you can explain it to me!


-- it seems to me that the way it works is that power goes to the glow relay when the key in in 'G'. After starting, power can be routed again to the glow relay, but instead of using the 'G' position (impossible, since the 40 series ignition barrel is configured so that the key has to be rotated backwards for glow, and thus to go to 'G' after starting would mean shutting the engine off - that's a reason I wanted to use the 60 series ignition barrel, as it has 'G' just prior to 'ST').

So, after starting, if you want to add more glow to the plugs, they momentary switch is used, and this shunts power from the 15a. engine fuse circuit to the glow relay (since you can't get power to it from 'G' without shutting the engine off). Seems straightforward to me - what am I missing here?

 

[amaurer]

I can't see enough of the diagrams to read it. I see some things of interest, but I need to see more. Can you send me some bigger/higher resolution pictures? a.l.maurer at gmail dot com

The reason the situation isn't so straightforward is that all roads that lead to the glow relay ALSO seem to lead to the starter relay. See what I've highlighted below... now, surely this isn't the case, but there isn't enough info in the snippets we've seen thus far to figure it out.

I'm thinking the diode shown in the glow relay is more than just a diode; maybe it drops the voltage enough that it can't trip the starter relay....?

P.S. my name is Andrew, so Tom can stop calling me Amaurer

 

[lostmarbles]

...Your wrote,
"Do you mean to say that the 28610-68010 was original on your HJ47?".....

No I didn't say this! (Where is it then?)






OK. I deleted it. Cos I realised I'd been getting confused (which becomes easier by the day). What I had looked up on the EPC was the "glow controller" and not the "glow relay".

So I just looked up the "glow relay" now and I've found your 28610-68010 is rare in comparison to my 28610-46030.

Here's mine:




The EPC says your 28610-68010 was virtually limited to OCT/1981-June/1985 HJ47 models.

Whereas my 28610-46030 was used in B, 3B, H and 2H engines and landcruiser models BJ4#, HJ45, HJ47. And also used in DYNA, COASTER, and TOYOACE models as well as landcruiser. And its use spread across more years.

Like you, I wonder what the difference is between them (if any)!

..... Listed for my truck, from October 1981 through to June 1985 is relay number 28610-68010

Hey. What I found agrees with what you found!

...Here's a wider angle shot of the wiring diagram for the BJ40 in my FSM - perhaps the added info will make the function clearer - and then you can explain it to me!

Sorry. I'm getting a headache now and that photo didn't make it any clearer because I still can't see enough of the other wiring.
But- What der yer know! I've had that damn diagram here in my manual all the time anyway.

(taking a squizz). There is definitely something not right about that diagram because "putting the key in the glow position" and "pushing the dash glow button" both activate the starter (as the diagram is drawn).

Can you tell me why the starter relay activating coil isn't really being fed with 12V in this way? ????

But in reality, we all know that putting the key in "glow" doesn't crank the engine. So on that basis, I now agree that you're likely to be OK to copy that bit of the diagram that supplies 12V +VE from the 15A engine fuse (coming off the "run" ignition position) via the "dash glow button" to terminal g on the relay (lower case G). It took a long time but you got me there finally HJ.

But I'd still be a little cautious since we now know (as if we didn't before ) that the FSM wiring diagram holds "mysteries".



But I don't still understand why you were thinking of using a 60 series switch to get the "glow" position on the "start side" of the "run" position rather than on the other side. Surely moving the key off the "run" position would almost immediately kill the engine no matter which switch you were using. And besides, moving the key towards the "start" position while the engine is running would be asking for trouble (even if you're only aiming to move it as far as "glow".)

 

[lostmarbles]

.....I'm thinking the diode shown in the glow relay is more than just a diode; maybe it drops the voltage enough that it can't trip the starter relay....

We make good allies Andrew .

Yep. That's probably what those clever Toyota people have done HJ.

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Tom,

your glow relay looks identical to mine on the surface, the only difference I can see is that the plastic terminal connector has two wires, whereas mine has three.

I've stared at that drawing a bit more, and you guys seem to be right - I'm thinking that there must be something in the glow relay that prevents the current supplied by the rocker switch from re-activating the starter.

I was hoping someone with more knowledge might chime in here, though I think we're drawing some sound conclusions at this point.

And you're right Tom that there is the possibility that I might turn the key a little too far past glow and kick the starter over while the engine is running. It seems like the amount of rotation at the key from 'G' glow to go to the 'ST' start position is considerable, so I'd have to overshoot the mark a fair bit. If it does happen more than once though, I would consider reconfiguring.

You wrote,

"I now agree that you're likely to be OK to copy that bit of the diagram that supplies 12V +VE from the 15A engine fuse (coming off the "run" ignition position) via the "dash glow button" to terminal g on the relay (lower case G). It took a long time but you got me there finally HJ."

My system is a bit different than the BJ40 system in that my key is the momentary switch. I have no push button or rocker switch on my dash.

I'll be posting my wiring diagram pretty soon, once i have sorted the windshield wiper motor out.

Great news this evening after 3 hours of work: the engine turns over from the key!!!!!

As soon as the bus bar was hooked up, it was possible to engage the starter from the ignition switch, and boy, I was so pumped to hear the rapid "ruhr-ruhr-rurh" of the starter spinning the engine.

I realized that I have a used glow controller somewhere, so I am going to hook it up tomorrow to the system and see how it works. I'll be sure to check my glow plugs first, though there are new plugs in there, and I'm pretty sure they're 10.5v. If it doesn't burn the unit out this time then I will be confident to hook up the new controller when it arrives.

on the down side, my shipment of replacement 4x4Labs knuckle arms arrived in the mail, complete with an addition $42 of duty and tax slapped on courtest of Canada Customs. I was excited to open the package, however that was followed by dismay shortly after when I saw they had shipped me the exact same arms again.

I talked with the company, and Luke remembered making me a set "for 60 axles" - I guess there was a goof up in the shipping department. He said he'll make me up another set on Monday and get them out to me asap, so that was some good resolution to the situation, but more waiting until I can get the truck onto 4 wheels again.

I have started wrapping up the rear harness as everything on that circuit appears to work fine.

Here's some pictures of the inside of the passenger apron, re-modified again for the relays and the new bus bar.

 

[Henry James the 47th]

one more thrown in for good measure

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Here we are Sunday night, after two full days of work on the 47.

Saturday, I put in 8 hours, and in sum total for that period of time I diagnosed that the wiper motor was dead, took it apart, couldn't find anything wrong, put it back together and still dead. I could live with that.

The glow and starter situation was totally baffling me, and I was getting very frustrated. I started feeling like I could spend days staring at and tracing wires, clock ticking away on this project, and getting nowhere. In fact, worse than that, as i tested and tried different things, there were minor episodes of wires smoking and shorts, that sort of thing, and i was afraid of making things worse as I tried to solve problems. Already during the process the glow controller has been fried, so I was plenty apprehensive about doing more damage.

I did ascertain that the main power feed wire to the buss bar had a poor connection so I replaced it with an 8 gage wire and fresh terminals. That helped, but now a new problem appeared, which was that both the glow and starter relay, when both connected to the circuit, would fire at the same time, well before the key even got fully into the 'G' position. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how the simple glow wiring, when added to the starter would render it all non-functional. I kept checking my wiring diagram and referring to the factory wiring diagram, checking my wires over and over and everything seemed to be hooked up as it should be. WTF?

Later, as I was connecting the 8 gage wire up, I inadvertently let the bare wire end drop onto the metal case for the glow relay. Unfortunately, the other end was hooked to the battery so sparking and smoke erupted. I was worried i might have fried the relay, no small concern since I had just reconfigured the wires and terminals for it and it was one of the few bloody units left on the planet.

I woke up early this a.m. and the first thought on my mind was the friggin' glow relay. I was sweating the thought that i might have fried it.

The first thing I did when I got to the truck was test the relay, and to my considerable relief, it worked perfectly.


I continued to try and figure out the wiring problem, and I was pretty much pulling my hair out by mid-afternoon. The only thing i could figure was that I had damaged the ignition switch somehow, but when I tested it, wire by wire, things seemed fine. It just made no sense. Another fellow I know came by who is pretty savvy with electrical systems and he was puzzled too. Things were looking grim.

Later in the afternoon I went and asked John Barron from Radd Cruisers to come on over and take a look. It is such an asset to have someone around who knows their stuff. The first thing he looked at was the ignition switch cable and asked me which model of truck it had come from. I wasn't sure frankly, since all those months back when I modified the column I had drawn upon 4 different columns and as far as I could recall I had simply put the ignition switch cable that looked the cleanest into position. John said that the cables for diesel 60 series varied by the year, and that since i had the unique 1981 ignition barrel (they changed the design the following year), I needed the 1981 BJ60 ignition switch cable. Very fortunately he had a 1981 parts truck in his yard that had the cable. We went over and I pulled the cable and, checking it against the one I had been using, i could see there were differences in the arrangement of wires around the switch head. Hmm.....

Back to the truck we went, a 5 minute drive, and i put the correct switch cable into place. I then had to rearrange the wire terminal ends at the loom connection point, which took but a couple of minutes. Then came the fateful turn of the key - to my astonishment and delight, the glow relay could be heard to click when the key was in 'G' and then the engine cranked as soon as the key was at 'ST'. Eureka!! It lives!!!!!!!!

Man, I was so happy! Two months of hooking up wires and the last two weeks of diagnosing the glitches - to be pretty much at wits end -- and now I feel like I've actually got through this wiring stage (knock on wood). Whew! Now i can focus on moving things along more rapidly.

Many thanks to Mr. Barron.

 

[lostmarbles]

Glad it all worked out in the end HJ.

Reminds me of my last couple of days of "mishaps". Firstly I had my LH guard/fender all prepped for painting and was carrying it by means of a long bolt screwed into the battery-earthing-nut that had been factory-resistance-welded to the guard. (To keep my finger-prints off the guard.)

As I was walking outside with the guard, the welds broke (holding the nut) and the guard hit the deck. (Luckily it only hit dirt/mud and not the nearby concrete. - But of course it then needed re-prepping.)

But before that I had to weld the nut back on. And in doing that I burnt 2 big holes in the guard that I then had to fill.

Later a swarm of sandflies took a liking to my "sky blue" topcoat and I had about 10 sandflies stuck per square inch!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Sounds like a winner of a weekend HJ!

Sometimes the simplest things make the rest of things very, very complicated....

Did you just crank it, or actually start it for a bit?

Dan

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Oh, I only cranked it over. The engine has no fluids of any kind in it at the moment, nor any exhaust system. I've been considering hooking up a can of diesel to the injector pump intake hose and putting the oil and anti-freeze in for a quick light up before I pull the harness out, but I'm not so sure I really need to. It glows and cranks and all the lights come on - what more do I need? I'm quite content to sit there ands toot the horn at the moment.

I had a conversation this evening with a car painting guru and he explained that while the matte finish I'm planning might be great at showing scratches minimally, when it comes time to polish out any scratches, the polished areas come up glossy. So that would mean that either i do nothing about scratches, or have a uneven matte/gloss effect after polishing out the scratches. With a gloss finish, the scratches are easily polished out to match (unless they are too deep of course).

So, I'm reconsidering the whole thing and wondering if the basic Toyota 857 Nordic Blue in standard acrylic urethane might be the best choice...

any thoughts anyone?


I'm taking my wiper motor to the starter/alternator repair place to see if they can do anything for me - either repair it or order me a new one. The list at Cool Cruisers of Taiwan for the OEM Toyota wiper motor is $178.

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Glad it all worked out in the end HJ.

Reminds me of my last couple of days of "mishaps". Firstly I had my LH guard/fender all prepped for painting and was carrying it by means of a long bolt screwed into the battery-earthing-nut that had been factory-resistance-welded to the guard. (To keep my finger-prints off the guard.)

As I was walking outside with the guard, the welds broke (holding the nut) and the guard hit the deck. (Luckily it only hit dirt/mud and not the nearby concrete. - But of course it then needed re-prepping.)

But before that I had to weld the nut back on. And in doing that I burnt 2 big holes in the guard that I then had to fill.

Later a swarm of sandflies took a liking to my "sky blue" topcoat and I had about 10 sandflies stuck per square inch!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I am taking notes here Tom, in preparation for all the bodywork ahead. Fortunately, no sandflies around here.

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Things have started rolling again.

First order of business was to fabricate some catches for the front hood latches. I originally planned to find some little vents or pitot ports at a marine store, and screw them to the aprons, however the stuff they had at the local marina was pretty crappy. I then had the idea to fabricate them, and went to the scrap metal dealer and bought a 4' length of metal tube, chrome-plated as it happened, for $0.60.

Here's what I came up with:

 

[Henry James the 47th]

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