Help with first start

[Oregon FJ40]

oh man I didn't set any gap I just popped the new rotor on. Crap did I mess something up already?

I doubt you have messed anything up, especially with only attempting to start it a couple times. If you did not invest too much money already in the points, you might consider upgrading to an electronic ignition system such as Pertronix.

 

[Dynosoar]

Set the point gap and dwell. It is becoming a lost art, and most of the newly minted ASC mechanics don't even know what those terms are.

 

[kerplunk]

If you 'prime' your oil pump with a slotted screwdriver, inserted into a drill motor, going clockwise, you will see oil enter the rocker arm assembly with the valve cover off. Turn the engine by hand, then prime some more. Do this if you think that you are missing the 8mm or so engagement with the tang of the distributor, and the oil pump slot. With the starter, you should build up oil pressure, and see it from the rocker arm assembly.

He's got a great point, if the valve cover is off to look at them, you should see if the pump's pushing oil up to them.

When I've done this, pulling that valve cover to see the position of the valves always seemed like a bit extra work that I wanted to avoid, but if it's already done, take full advantage.

BTW, do you have a remote starter to use? So you can crank the engine while watching it (maybe turning the dizzy a couple degrees and spraying in a bit of starter fluid while it's cranking)? All you need is a wire from the battery to the starter's solenoid with a switch to control it, fancy tool company manufactured options are available for $10, or the cheap home made route is a piece of with female spade terminal to hold against the battery post.

 

[airon23]

Let me say this that I got it running...sort of. Well not me, but I gotta thank Mike Dillon (don't know his username on mud) from our local club Battle Born Cruisers of Northern Nevada (BBCNN) for taking some time to come over to my house and help me with this problem. He worked his magic and taught me in real time what many of you were trying to tell me to do. Ultimately we ended up finding the little silver ball on the flywheel and getting that lined up.

Next Mike tightened the distributor down and found there was a bolt needed to loosen under the distributor in order to allow the distributor to turn to make adjustments. Then he used this magic wand with a light in it with a clamp attached to the distributor housing and then touching the contact ends. Maybe this is "setting the points" as has been mentioned I'm not sure. But after doing this I got in gave it a little gas and it started right up. I was amazed and super excited.

There was one small hiccup that I'm somewhat concerned about and that is the oil pressure. I'm not seeing any oil coming out of the little rocker rail thingy or whatever you call it. Watch the video and let me know if you have any thoughts as to what might be wrong if anything.

 

[John McVicker]

Congratulations on you & Mike getting it started. But DO NOT try to start it unit you have oil up to the rockers and valves. From your video it appears as if you are not getting oil up there. It is not a fuse btw.

Did you do as @Dizzy suggested in post 38. As I remember the shaft that the rockers go on can be installed in 2 ways...one is correct and the other is incorrect and will not flow oil.

Do what @Dizzy suggested to verify. You will need to remove the dist. But that’s no big deal. When you reinsert it...it doesn’t need to be perfect to get it to start. But be sure it sits flush like you did before. Then you can move it around a bit to get it running smooth.

You are doing good and seem to be almost there. But do not try to start it until you verify oil is moving up.

 

[Steamer]

Like John said above. Can't see any oil flowing up there in the video and shouldn't be run until till you get oil flow by spinning the pump like Dizzy said in post 38.

If you Installed the rocker assembly, the shaft may need to rotate 180 deg for the oil holes to mate up. If you disassembled the rocker assembly it's also possible the rocker shaft pedestal with the oil hole got switched with another.

This pic (borrowed from the "Marion Rising" thread) shows the oil hole in the head that feeds oil to the pedestal.

 

[airon23]

So there was some other speculation that I might have placed the head gasket on backwards @gregnash. This I thought was a total possibility and I was also starting to question this since I didn't remember. I talked to @65swb45 in case I needed a new gasket, and he confirmed that would indeed be the case that it would definitely prevent the oil from getting to the rail. Well I went back through and luckily I did have some pictures that showed how I placed it. Also remembering when not wanting to get it wrong, I placed it both ways to make sure I put it right and noticed the little brass ring was most likely the important part of how it was to be installed.

Admittedly I was a little sick thinking I was going to need to pull the head off but now I think I can safely say that should not be the case. So I will move forward with the mentions about the oil rail and see if there is something wrong with how that is placed along with priming the pump.

So follow up to that, is that something that needs to happen prior to starting the engine and does not "just happen" with the engine in motion? Is this a common thing when putting an engine together that one first needs to prime the oil pump? This may be what I need to do then. I will attempt, and then update.

 

[Steamer]

Well that had to be a relief. Thank goodness for digital and phone cameras.
With that much re-assembly it’s always a good idea to spin/prime the pump to both fill empty spaces and to confirm the assembly is correct.

 

[Dynosoar]

I am truly amazed at your ability to willingly tear down your engine with seemingly little knowledge of how all of the components work. This is NOT a dig at you. I just know I would not have the mental fortitude to take on a project like this with out a complete understanding of the entirety of the system. Good on you! Pull the rocker shaft and be sure the oil hole is in the correct position as mentioned and pictured above.
In Japanese, I would say 頑張って！(Ganbatte), it means Go for it! or Do your best!

Dyno

 

[kerplunk]

So follow up to that, is that something that needs to happen prior to starting the engine and does not "just happen" with the engine in motion? Is this a common thing when putting an engine together that one first needs to prime the oil pump? This may be what I need to do then. I will attempt, and then update.

The engine is "oiled" but the oil pump sucking oil from the pan and pushing it through little holes all over the engine. The oil pump is driven mechanically, when the engine is turning, by the blade on the bottom of the distributor turning the pumping stuff in it.

If you tore this all apart, like crankshaft out, you should have seen some of those holes in the bearings (at least I assume they did this on the 2F?), and hopefully understood the significance?

(I gotta admit, I've only taken a 2F apart once, years ago, still waiting for motivation to put it back together.)

@Steamer pointed out several posts above an easily accessible hole to verify this oil is making it to the top of the engine. You should be able to see oil coming out of the hole he pointed out of the oil pump is run. This can be done turning that slot under the distributor with a screwdriver blade and a drill (get a big, cheap screwdriver, cut the handle off and put it in a drill?). Recommended idle speed is 680 RPM, the distributor goes half that fast? so if the drill can turn it at ~300 RPM (really, probably less) you should see oil up around the top of the head where the tops of all the valves are.

(I have taken apart and reassembled other engines, and never bothered to test like this).

 

[airon23]

I am truly amazed at your ability to willingly tear down your engine with seemingly little knowledge of how all of the components work. This is NOT a dig at you. I just know I would not have the mental fortitude to take on a project like this with out a complete understanding of the entirety of the system. Good on you! Pull the rocker shaft and be sure the oil hole is in the correct position as mentioned and pictured above.
In Japanese, I would say 頑張って！(Ganbatte), it means Go for it! or Do your best!

Dyno

Haha I get it not a dig, but yes understandably in awe. Also why would I take apart a working engine right, albeit leaking oil like crazy, but it just sounds crazy. All that being said, I am equally in awe that this thing even fired up in the first place.

Here's the thing, I've not ever been so knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of stuff, but when you think about it, how does anyone ever gain this type of knowledge? At some point in time they have experienced exactly what I am experiencing and learned the hard way or with a little help from their friends. This was pretty much my approach. I knew it ran, but it was not running on it's best leg and I knew it. I always wanted to make it run "right" and not leak oil everywhere in the process. One thing led to another and I just decided to keep going.

I can now say I know exponentially more than I did before this process. I'm clearly still not an expert but I can now say I've done much of this work myself and imo that's the best way to learn. I've read and watched tons of stuff about this, but it's always different when you can get your hands on it. I really appreciate your comment though because it makes me reflect how far I've come.

Everyone is at their own level, but I feel like I just leveled up several levels throughout this process.

 

[Dizzy]

You have a new oil filter, right? Is it still dry inside?

 

[airon23]

You have a new oil filter, right? Is it still dry inside?

It's been sitting a while now but I can look.

 

[Oregon FJ40]

Everyone is at their own level, but I feel like I just leveled up several levels throughout this process.

Just don’t level up to to Jumanji. 2020 has been bad enough...

 

[Oregon FJ40]

Where are you at with this problem? Get it figured out?

 

[airon23]

From my post on another thread about this topic asking about the same thing...

I can feel some extra resistance whenever I turn it with the drill, however the gauge, I'm told by my daughter, does not move.
Could the gauge be faulty or the oil pump be faulty? The oil filter is full after spinning oil pump.
As far as I know the pump used to work fine. Is it common they can go out?

At this point I am getting frustrated and losing motivation because I'm still NOT getting the oil up top that needs to be.

I read a bunch of posts and reasons why the oil would not come up, but they have been different reasons. None of which have seemed to be my same experience.
For some it was plugged up oil galleys, for others it was reversed head gasket, someone else had installed the bearing caps incorrectly, and others a bad oil pump. This system doesn't seem to be too complex so I'm just a little stumped as to exactly what is happening.

Here is everything I've done so far:
1. Checked that the rocker rail is installed correctly.
2. Turned oil pump with screwdriver several times with no oil coming out of rockers.
3. Turned oil pump then rock vehicle back to rotate crank slightly then turn oil pump again and still no oil.
4. Removed rail and turn oil pump to see if oil comes out of hole, there was no oil coming out.
5. Blew some air down the hole to see if it was plugged up, then turned the oil pump again and still no oil.
6. The oil filter does get filled with oil when I turn the oil pump.
7. I even used a syringe to pour oil down the hole from above the head. The oil slowly goes down.
8. Verified through pictures and just from my memory that the head gasket was positioned correct.

Do I need to remove the oil pan and just start from the bottom up? I did pull the cam but didn't touch the bearing caps, could they have gotten moved when reinserting the cam? At this point I don't know what else to do, and I'm losing hope it's something simple. In my mind I'm having to tear the entire thing apart all over again. That would be super devastating to my morale.

 

[Oregon FJ40]

From my post on another thread about this topic asking about the same thing...

I can feel some extra resistance whenever I turn it with the drill, however the gauge, I'm told by my daughter, does not move.
Could the gauge be faulty or the oil pump be faulty? The oil filter is full after spinning oil pump.
As far as I know the pump used to work fine. Is it common they can go out?

At this point I am getting frustrated and losing motivation because I'm still NOT getting the oil up top that needs to be.

I read a bunch of posts and reasons why the oil would not come up, but they have been different reasons. None of which have seemed to be my same experience.
For some it was plugged up oil galleys, for others it was reversed head gasket, someone else had installed the bearing caps incorrectly, and others a bad oil pump. This system doesn't seem to be too complex so I'm just a little stumped as to exactly what is happening.

Here is everything I've done so far:
1. Checked that the rocker rail is installed correctly.
2. Turned oil pump with screwdriver several times with no oil coming out of rockers.
3. Turned oil pump then rock vehicle back to rotate crank slightly then turn oil pump again and still no oil.
4. Removed rail and turn oil pump to see if oil comes out of hole, there was no oil coming out.
5. Blew some air down the hole to see if it was plugged up, then turned the oil pump again and still no oil.
6. The oil filter does get filled with oil when I turn the oil pump.
7. I even used a syringe to pour oil down the hole from above the head. The oil slowly goes down.
8. Verified through pictures and just from my memory that the head gasket was positioned correct.

Do I need to remove the oil pan and just start from the bottom up? I did pull the cam but didn't touch the bearing caps, could they have gotten moved when reinserting the cam? At this point I don't know what else to do, and I'm losing hope it's something simple. In my mind I'm having to tear the entire thing apart all over again. That would be super devastating to my morale.

If you are getting oil into the filter I don’t think you would need to start at the bottom. I saw the picture of your head gasket on the top of the block. Is it possible you moved it after taking the picture while installing the head? In post #46 someone said to make sure the pedestals did not get swapped, you verify those were in the right posistion?

 

[middlecalf]

Ok you’ve updated this since I last read it and you now say there’s oil in the oil filter after turning the pump via screwdriver. That requires the pump to get oil to the filter. What I’d do if this was my rig is dribble some oil on each rocker arm over each valve, and along the rocker shaft at each bearing location, and at the top of each tappet so it dribbles down into the block. Then I’d start it and run a bit to see if oil comes out of rocker. And check gauge to see if it moves. Then go from there. But that’s me.

 

[airon23]

If you are getting oil into the filter I don’t think you would need to start at the bottom. I saw the picture of your head gasket on the top of the block. Is it possible you moved it after taking the picture while installing the head? In post #46 someone said to make sure the pedestals did not get swapped, you verify those were in the right posistion?

I mean it's possible I moved it, but it does seat into the rounded corners where the bolts go through so I sort of don't think so, but at this point I don't even know anymore. I never took the pedestals completely apart. When I removed the entire rail off the head I left it as is until I went to reinstall it. So it is lined up where it should be.

 

[airon23]

Ok you’ve updated this since I last read it and you now say there’s oil in the oil filter after turning the pump via screwdriver. That requires the pump to get oil to the filter. What I’d do if this was my rig is dribble some oil on each rocker arm over each valve, and along the rocker shaft at each bearing location, and at the top of each tappet so it dribbles down into the block. Then I’d start it and run a bit to see if oil comes out of rocker. And check gauge to see if it moves. Then go from there. But that’s me.

So I did something similar but not with the rocker arms, I had the rocker arms removed and was pouring some oil down oil galley with a syringe. Turned the oil pump and still nothing. At this point I'm trying to remove the rocker arm variable and just see some oil coming out of the hole that feeds the rocker arm. So I don't see anything there, and obviously that worries me.