Help me choose between Wildpeak A/T3W, Terra Grappler, KO2, and Cooper Discoverer AT3 XLT

[bozncsurf]

I have gone with the Goodyear duratrac twice now and love them, best tire for snow by a mile and look better than the tires mentioned above

Hands down the Duratracs are the best snow / ice tire. Every plow truck in upstate New York runs them. They do have their short comings in side wall strength offroad as well as road noise after a few thousand miles. They weren’t on the OPs list so I didn’t comment on them previously

This thread could be improved with what intentions the OP has for the tires. So far it sounds like they are simply looking for a great ride on the highway.

 

[NY2LA]

Hands down the Duratracs are the best snow / ice tire. Every plow truck in upstate New York runs them. They do have their short comings in side wall strength offroad as well as road noise after a few thousand miles. They weren’t on the OPs list so I didn’t comment on them previously

This thread could be improved with what intentions the OP has for the tires. So far it sounds like they are simply looking for a great ride on the highway.

I've discussed this elsewhere, so was avoiding too much repetition. I'll be driving thousands of miles on the highway to remote off-road locations, where the terrain will vary from mud to deep sand hills to rock climbing to everything in between. This is an expedition film vehicle for work, and the vehicle must perform every time. Leaving an area because it's too difficult is not an option, unless it becomes a safety issue. Also, during some of my time on the pavement, I will be blogging on an interior 20-pound production camera mounted on an industrial robotic motion control device to a bracket in the sunglass holder that's attached at 6 points to the underside of the roof. My tires and suspension must be capable of offroading in a variety of terrain, must resist damage, must be acceptable (though obviously won't be ideal) for long drives on the highway, and must help reduce excessive vibration and bumps on the camera and its motion controller when I hit pavement imperfections. It's a tough puzzle, but I've made my decisions. I've got the 3-way adjustable Dobinsons coming in so I can separately tune my high-speed and low-speed compression, and I've chosen this tire size for its relative low minimal PSI of 35 for an E load tire.

These decisions are firm, and I'm not open to re-opening the can of worms at this point. So right now, I'm just choosing between the available tires in the size I've selected.

 

[Madtiger]

Go with BFG KO2. Not sure what TeCKis300 is talking about, but my KO2 at 24k miles is as quiet as day one...in fact, i have gotten away from my Michelin Defender idea because recent ride in a vehicle with them was unimpressive. My wife loves the KO2 ride and noise...and she’s picky. Maybe they will get noisier with age...but name me one tire that does not.

But with OP’s requirements (reliable in all terrains, resist damage, etc)...there is only one on that list that fits all that. KO2. Now, i do admit that you’re talking about Load Range E, which may be noisier/rougher than what I have (Load Range D).

 

[bozncsurf]

I've discussed this elsewhere, so was avoiding too much repetition. I'll be driving thousands of miles on the highway to remote off-road locations, where the terrain will vary from mud to deep sand hills to rock climbing to everything in between. This is an expedition film vehicle for work, and the vehicle must perform every time. Leaving an area because it's too difficult is not an option, unless it becomes a safety issue. Also, during some of my time on the pavement, I will be blogging on an interior 20-pound production camera mounted on an industrial robotic motion control device to a bracket in the sunglass holder that's attached at 6 points to the underside of the roof. My tires and suspension must be capable of offroading in a variety of terrain, must resist damage, must be acceptable (though obviously won't be ideal) for long drives on the highway, and must help reduce excessive vibration and bumps on the camera and its motion controller when I hit pavement imperfections. It's a tough puzzle, but I've made my decisions. I've got the 3-way adjustable Dobinsons coming in so I can separately tune my high-speed and low-speed compression, and I've chosen this tire size for its relative low minimal PSI of 35 for an E load tire.

These decisions are firm, and I'm not open to re-opening the can of worms at this point. So right now, I'm just choosing between the available tires in the size I've selected.

This sounds AMAZING!

Would love to follow along. Please share any links for us to join your journey.





(I know you said don’t open the can of worms but gotta throw out there that the LX570 has the most capable AND versatile suspension one could ask for in a variety conditions - that being said I’m sure you’ll be more than fine with the dobinsons 3 way)

Good luck!

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Just going to throw out that if driving on pavement covered with ice (or any surface covered with ice) is of consideration, all of the A/T options will suck.

I've had KO2s, and now have Falkens. I heard many good things about the Falkens on ice, but have to say they have been an utter disappointment in that regard. Snow = awesome, ice = downright dangerous. Thankfully I still have my Blizzacks, and am searching for a new set of wheels to put those on.

 

[NY2LA]

Just going to throw out that if driving on pavement covered with ice (or any surface covered with ice) is of consideration, all of the A/T options will suck.

I've had KO2s, and now have Falkens. I heard many good things about the Falkens on ice, but have to say they have been an utter disappointment in that regard. Snow = awesome, ice = downright dangerous. Thankfully I still have my Blizzacks, and am searching for a new set of wheels to put those on.

Thanks for the head's up. I'll take that compromise. I will rarely be doing professional work in locations with much ice. When I come to that situation, I can deal with it by swapping tires or transportation.

 

[40Man]

Thanks for the head's up. I'll take that compromise. I will rarely be doing professional work in locations with much ice. When I come to that situation, I can deal with it by swapping tires or transportation.

I haven't run the E or F rated Falkens (different compound compared to the P rated). I can tell you (and many others on here have reiterated) that the KO2s are simply scary on ice. My wife almost slid off a road and couldn't get traction with c rated Ko2s when other 2wd cars were passing her. She started walking home, fell a bunch of times, until I went and picked her up with my 4Runner w General Grabber AT2s. I was able to tow her car to a safe spot. We also had hydroplaning issues. Ultimately, it scared my wife so much she only runs dedicated winters, and I started to as well, but I ran the Falkens for 2 winters, and they were very good on snow and ice. She made me sell the almost brand new KO2s and she now runs Falkens and loves them.


I keep the Falkens on my other 3 rigs, and drive them regularly in winter. I will never buy the KO2s again (I have also had many balancing issues and tire exchanges with KO and KO2s). I have 25 Falkens mounted now, and all balanced great.

I have run duratracs, and until I ran Falkens, Duratracs were the best for ice (as good as an AT can be on ice).

The Toyos are the newest tire, and early reports say they may be the best.

 

[04UZJ100]

It’s funny reading people complain about tire performance on ice. The only tires that perform on ice are studded. Period.

I have 200,000 miles on KOs and KO2s in rain, winter, and in Alaska.

If you drive for the conditions, they work perfectly. Never had any issues and don’t have unrealistic expectations, either.

 

[40Man]

It’s funny reading people complain about tire performance on ice. The only tires that perform on ice are studded. Period.

I have 200,000 miles on KOs and KO2s in rain, winter, and in Alaska.

If you drive for the conditions, they work perfectly. Never had any issues and don’t have unrealistic expectations, either.

My complaint is 2wd cars were passing my wife's 4runner on some ice where she had 0 traction, even after airing down. My 4runner with grabbers had enough traction to tow her (it was a struggle) but she couldn't get purchase. We had to park her 4runner in a nearby driveway because it was sliding all over. My non-studded Grabbers got us home.


It took 3 days of effort to finally get her 4runner in my driveway. We lived on hills, and it was a lot of ice, but it taught me how bad the KO2s were on ice when my old tech Grabbers (similar tread pattern to original KO, just much softer, which was likely their saving grace).

So while I agree ATs are not good on ice, the KO2s are abysmal. I think @Markuson or @coleAK had similar issues.

Lots of documented issues with how poor the KO2s are on ice.

One thing that amazes me with people and tires, is how so many people get on a soapbox for a certain brand or tire type without having run many other brands to see the difference. One of these in particular is KO2s. Horrible winter tire, but many people think they are amazing (yet haven't run others to compare)...

I've pushed Falkens on here regularly, after being one of the few people that have run a large number of other ATs (off the top of my head I've owned KO, KO2, LTX, Duratrac, AT3, AT/3s, Discoverer M+S, and ST MAXX (I only owned the ST Maxx on a rig I sold quickly after installing, so not a lot of personal data), Blizzaks, Nokian Hakkas and others. I hear good things about a few other tires, but don't chime in because I don't have experience (or at least state as much). Of all these, the Falkens are probably the best for the buck, and have the best winter traction of ATs along with Duratracs.

 

[Dayhiker]

My complaint is 2wd cars were passing my wife's 4runner on some ice where she had 0 traction, even after airing down. My 4runner with grabbers had enough traction to tow her (it was a struggle) but she couldn't get purchase. We had to park her 4runner in a nearby driveway because it was sliding all over. My non-studded Grabbers got us home.


It took 3 days of effort to finally get her 4runner in my driveway. We lived on hills, and it was a lot of ice, but it taught me how bad the KO2s were on ice when my old tech Grabbers (similar tread pattern to original KO, just much softer, which was likely their saving grace).

So while I agree ATs are not good on ice, the KO2s are abysmal. I think @Markuson or @coleAK had similar issues.

Lots of documented issues with how poor the KO2s are on ice.

One thing that amazes me with people and tires, is how so many people get on a soapbox for a certain brand or tire type without having run many other brands to see the difference. One of these in particular is KO2s. Horrible winter tire, but many people think they are amazing (yet haven't run others to compare)...

I've pushed Falkens on here regularly, after being one of the few people that have run a large number of other ATs (off the top of my head I've owned KO, KO2, LTX, Duratrac, AT3, AT/3s, Discoverer M+S, and ST MAXX (I only owned the ST Maxx on a rig I sold quickly after installing, so not a lot of personal data), Blizzaks, Nokian Hakkas and others. I hear good things about a few other tires, but don't chime in because I don't have experience (or at least state as much). Of all these, the Falkens are probably the best for the buck, and have the best winter traction of ATs along with Duratracs.

Just throwing my experience in along with this. I previously had a 2014 4Runner Limited with K02's and experienced similar issues here in Wisconsin with them. They were great in non winter conditions or even deep snow. On my 2011 LX I decided to try the Falken Wildpeak AT3's and have had those on for about 25k miles and have been quite happy with their all around performance in all conditions. Ideally, I'd have a set of winter tires/rims as nothing can match a dedicated setup like that. But the Falken's are capable enough for my current needs.

 

[CharlieS]

I must be the most unusual driver because I've run KO and KO2 (with the snowflake) on over a dozen different vehicles in Vermont, year round, and have never had any issues (except in clay consistency mud).

I've run them on land cruisers (multiple 80/100/200), Tacomas, Tundras, F150s, F250s (including two that I used as a personal use plow truck), and NEVER had issues with snow and ice traction.

There must be some more quantitative way to approach these tire threads. So much of what gets posted is limited experience and subjective opinions. It bums me out that people would be swayed from a really good tire as a result.

 

[40Man]

I must be the most unusual driver because I've run KO and KO2 (with the snowflake) on over a dozen different vehicles in Vermont, year round, and have never had any issues (except in clay consistency mud).

I've run them on land cruisers (multiple 80/100/200), Tacomas, Tundras, F150s, F250s (including two that I used as a personal use plow truck), and NEVER had issues with snow and ice traction.

There must be some more quantitative way to approach these tire threads. So much of what gets posted is limited experience and subjective opinions. It bums me out that people would be swayed from a really good tire as a result.

Most tires, including all seasons can be sufficient in most conditions. That isn't to say you can't get by on a KO2 without issues. I even drove successfully in an ice storm with bald tires on a ford escort when I was young (brothers car). Many accidents and cars off the road and I made it fine, but it was a scary drive.

I happened to have a situation on sheet ice, with two 4Runners with FT 4WD, one with nearly new KO2s and one with 2 year old Generals. I also had a chance to compare the Generals to Falkens that replaced the KO2s and the Falkens were much better in a side by side comparison.

Even after airing down the KO2s, I couldn't get traction, and it put my wife at risk. (Asking her to air down in those conditions made my heart skip as I worried another car could hit her, which is why I ultimately went out in sheet ice with my 1 year old daughter putting us at risk too).

But I agree, most comments are subjective with no baseline, which is why I have repeated my experience with the KO2s many times, as I feel it was a valuable comparison. In most conditions, including snow, the KO2s are great, last a long time (sold ours with over 30k miles and looked brand new), and are great off-road. But in ice, they are subpar compared to other newer ATs.

My Generals were at normal psi, and made it fine in conditions the KO2s suffered. Even after getting her unstuck, we still couldn't get her car home, even with momentum. I had my wife take my 4runner with the Generals home and I got my wife's 4runner to a safe spot off the road (someone let me park in their driveway). It scared the s*** out of my wife, because they were that bad on ice.

Unfortunately, there aren't good testing comparisons, but I think my experience is about as objective as you can get for a direct comparison.

Also, keep in mind the snowflake symbol doesn't mean much. Essentially any AT that applies will get it. The baseline tire you compare the tested tire to is essentially an old tech summer radial. I wish the qualification had ratings. Instead, the KO2, Hakkapelita and Blizzaks all have the same snowflake when clearly dedicated winters are much better.

As it stands, the snowflake symbol is little more than a marketing ploy, as it doesn't provide a lot of data. It would be great if they did a letter rating (A-F etc) for winter traction.

edit: I also drove the KO2s to ski resorts, and made it fine, but I did feel like I had more sliding, even on mixed conditions. Again, they can get through most conditions, but the icy conditions performance is abysmal. Others here and other forums all say the same thing.

 

[gaijin]

Most tires, including all seasons can be sufficient in most conditions. That isn't to say you can't get by on a KO2 without issues. I even drove successfully in an ice storm with bald tires on a ford escort when I was young (brothers car). Many accidents and cars off the road and I made it fine, but it was a scary drive.

I happened to have a situation on sheet ice, with two 4Runners with FT 4WD, one with nearly new KO2s and one with 2 year old Generals. I also had a chance to compare the Generals to Falkens that replaced the KO2s and the Falkens were much better in a side by side comparison.

Even after airing down the KO2s, I couldn't get traction, and it put my wife at risk. (Asking her to air down in those conditions made my heart skip as I worried another car could hit her, which is why I ultimately went out in sheet ice with my 1 year old daughter putting us at risk too).

But I agree, most comments are subjective with no baseline, which is why I have repeated my experience with the KO2s many times, as I feel it was a valuable comparison. In most conditions, including snow, the KO2s are great, last a long time (sold ours with over 30k miles and looked brand new), and are great off-road. But in ice, they are subpar compared to other newer ATs.

My Generals were at normal psi, and made it fine in conditions the KO2s suffered. Even after getting her unstuck, we still couldn't get her car home, even with momentum. I had my wife take my 4runner with the Generals home and I got my wife's 4runner to a safe spot off the road (someone let me park in their driveway). It scared the s*** out of my wife, because they were that bad on ice.

Unfortunately, there aren't good testing comparisons, but I think my experience is about as objective as you can get for a direct comparison.

Also, keep in mind the snowflake symbol doesn't mean much. Essentially any AT that applies will get it. The baseline tire you compare the tested tire to is essentially an old tech summer radial. I wish the qualification had ratings. Instead, the KO2, Hakkapelita and Blizzaks all have the same snowflake when clearly dedicated winters are much better.

As it stands, the snowflake symbol is little more than a marketing ploy, as it doesn't provide a lot of data. It would be great if they did a letter rating (A-F etc) for winter traction.

edit: I also drove the KO2s to ski resorts, and made it fine, but I did feel like I had more sliding, even on mixed conditions. Again, they can get through most conditions, but the icy conditions performance is abysmal. Others here and other forums all say the same thing.

Is this the 4runner forum?

Or are you saying that tires in different sizes, and at different pressures, on a different vehicle, exhibit the same performance as would be observed on a LC200?

I'm not sure that's a valid extrapolation...

 

[40Man]

Is this the 4runner forum?

Or are you saying that tires in different sizes, and at different pressures, on a different vehicle, exhibit the same performance as would be observed on a LC200?

I'm not sure that's a valid extrapolation...

No, but I didn't have a 200 to compare to at the time, and since there are no other comparable tests I could find, this is all I have. I'm simply comparing two tires on 4Runners, which is why I tried to communicate all the info I had. Even without a direct comparison, the fact that numerous other vehicles were getting traction when the KO2s were not that day speaks volumes. The fact I was able to get enough traction with general's to tow the 4Runner with KO2s also tells a lot. Over years of driving, I've found tires with poor winter performance tends to be amplified as a vehicle gets heavier. Longer stopping distances amplified, etc. So if anything, I'd imagine the 200 performance may actually be worse in many aspects.
If you have more weight, you have a better contact patch to get moving, but then you have that much more weight to stop. You also have that much more centrifugal force. It's actually harder to regain control.

In other words, while a heavier vehicle can get a deeper grip, more mass is going to be more difficult to stop and to steer.

I will say that I compared the Falkens on my 200 next to Generals on my 4Runner before I sold it. Because it was two different vehicles, I haven't discussed it because there are too many variables, but the Falkens out performed the Generals with stopping, even with the extra 200 weight. I tried to get to 15 mph at the same spot for both vehicles. Acceleration was too hard to test with two different engines.

@Markuson and @coleAK and others I can't recall had similar horrible traction situations with the KO2s.

It would be great if a tire tester would do an objective test among the snowflake tires to give a baseline. Even if the test wasn't on a 200, it would be helpful.

 

[gaijin]

Because it was two different vehicles, I haven't discussed it because there are too many variables...

That's exactly my point.

 

[40Man]

That's exactly my point.

Even so, the poor performance I had (and others here have reiterated running on the 200) seems to show a pattern.

I'd be happy to do an apples to apples comparison if someone with KO2s on their LC near me wants to do a test on an icy day.

 

[TeCKis300]

Pretty absurd IMO to say his experience would not apply or at least provide some partial evidence to compare.

That would mean my experience with tires on the 100-series doesn't apply. Or professional tire testers benching different tires on a different car with different sizes doesn't apply. Or how the LX pressures don't apply to the LC .

@40Man , no need to defend your experience. I found it particularly compelling and useful. Inline with much of the data now available characterizing the relative performance traits of different tires.

 

[04UZJ100]

Yes this exactly.

 

[40Man]

Pretty absurd IMO to say his experience would not apply or at least provide some partial evidence to compare.

That would mean my experience with tires on the 100-series doesn't apply. Or professional tire testers benching different tires on a different car with different sizes doesn't apply. Or how the LX pressures don't apply to the LC .

@40Man , no need to defend your experience. I found it particularly compelling and useful. Inline with much of the data now available characterizing the relative performance traits of different tires.

LOL, he does think that. Many posts where he tells people to run a lower psi on the LX vs the LC, simply because the LX comes with 20 inch tires that a lower weight rating from the factory. I'm on a Zoom meeting and reading your post made me laugh out loud.

 

[Madtiger]

Pretty absurd IMO to say his experience would not apply or at least provide some partial evidence to compare.

That would mean my experience with tires on the 100-series doesn't apply. Or professional tire testers benching different tires on a different car with different sizes doesn't apply. Or how the LX pressures don't apply to the LC .

@40Man , no need to defend your experience. I found it particularly compelling and useful. Inline with much of the data now available characterizing the relative performance traits of different tires.

But there is some validity to comparing apples to apples. You mentioned how your experience was horrible with KO2 on your brother’ LC100 i think...yet my (current) experience with KO2 is fantastic. Different tires. Different vehicle. Different load ratings. I think that all that matters quite a bit. I don’t know. But how can you and me have such different opinions?