Hard starting in extreme heat conditions (1 Viewer)

[RKRUGER]

I have a bit more time now to fill in the rest of my story...

I bought a super clean 2006 LC out of Virginia and moved it back to Minnesota. Base lined the truck, but it didn't need much as it had excellent service records and I was able to talk to the Service MGR at the dealership it was sold/serviced at. We took our first trip out west with it, crossed the Missouri River at Chamberlain, and headed cross country gravel to Winner, SD where I needed fuel. Regular it is, and we headed south cross country gravel to hook up with the Outlaw Trail Scenic Byway near Sparks, NE. We were trying to make time to get to Fort Robinson a bit once we hit pavement, and running up and down hills in the August heat pulling the trailer. I mentioned it felt like it was stumbling comping out of one of the small towns.... and then, we quite literally coasted into Rushville, and into a defunct "Ford Service Center". The truck stalled in the parking lot, and refused to start.

I started to check everything. And it was hot! 102 per the in car thermometer. So, I go inside this Quonset hut style building to find a guy cleaning a shot gun at the counter. We exchange some pleasantries and I ask if there is anyone that can look at my truck. He asks what I'm driving... and you know how that goes.

So, he gets the "mechanic". I explain the patients symptoms, and he asks one question.

"Where did you fill up with gas last?"

I say " Some place called the Lil' Fellar in Winner."

And he says "and you thought that was a good idea? That's owned by the Co op and the fuel has a minimum of 10% ethanol and more likely 30% and your Toyota is vapor locked."

I say "Ummm.... it's fuel injected."

He says " so is everything else I work on. Let it cool down, drive across the street, and put Premium in it. And it will work itself out."

So, I did. Talked to them a bit longer. Had a soda. 20 minutes later, starts right up. Drive across the street and put in a little more than a half tank of Premium. Leave town... and it dies West of Hay Springs. I am beginning to question my decision making paradigm that sent me further West, with perhaps a bad fuel pump, or something worse, but it fires up about 20 minutes later, and when I get to Chadron, I put in another 3 gallons or so of Premium..... and we didn't have another problem the rest of. I was nervous as heck... but it didn't happen again until the next summer, near Rapid City, SD.... and it worked itself out after I filled with Premium.

Not saying it is positively the issue... you're not in the Corn Belt. The largest ethanol producers are in SD, and I spend a lot of time there. Now, we only use Premium in SD and NE.

Pic of the lot in Rushville...

 

[KUpchu9702]

I have a bit more time now to fill in the rest of my story...

I bought a super clean 2006 LC out of Virginia and moved it back to Minnesota. Base lined the truck, but it didn't need much as it had excellent service records and I was able to talk to the Service MGR at the dealership it was sold/serviced at. We took our first trip out west with it, crossed the Missouri River at Chamberlain, and headed cross country gravel to Winner, SD where I needed fuel. Regular it is, and we headed south cross country gravel to hook up with the Outlaw Trail Scenic Byway near Sparks, NE. We were trying to make time to get to Fort Robinson a bit once we hit pavement, and running up and down hills in the August heat pulling the trailer. I mentioned it felt like it was stumbling comping out of one of the small towns.... and then, we quite literally coasted into Rushville, and into a defunct "Ford Service Center". The truck stalled in the parking lot, and refused to start.

I started to check everything. And it was hot! 102 per the in car thermometer. So, I go inside this Quonset hut style building to find a guy cleaning a shot gun at the counter. We exchange some pleasantries and I ask if there is anyone that can look at my truck. He asks what I'm driving... and you know how that goes.

So, he gets the "mechanic". I explain the patients symptoms, and he asks one question.

"Where did you fill up with gas last?"

I say " Some place called the Lil' Fellar in Winner."

And he says "and you thought that was a good idea? That's owned by the Co op and the fuel has a minimum of 10% ethanol and more likely 30% and your Toyota is vapor locked."

I say "Ummm.... it's fuel injected."

He says " so is everything else I work on. Let it cool down, drive across the street, and put Premium in it. And it will work itself out."

So, I did. Talked to them a bit longer. Had a soda. 20 minutes later, starts right up. Drive across the street and put in a little more than a half tank of Premium. Leave town... and it dies West of Hay Springs. I am beginning to question my decision making paradigm that sent me further West, with perhaps a bad fuel pump, or something worse, but it fires up about 20 minutes later, and when I get to Chadron, I put in another 3 gallons or so of Premium..... and we didn't have another problem the rest of. I was nervous as heck... but it didn't happen again until the next summer, near Rapid City, SD.... and it worked itself out after I filled with Premium.

Not saying it is positively the issue... you're not in the Corn Belt. The largest ethanol producers are in SD, and I spend a lot of time there. Now, we only use Premium in SD and NE.

Pic of the lot in Rushville...

View attachment 1477283

Great story! What you describe is very similar to my issue. It's very hot out here in the desert during summer months. I will try the premium fuel next. There is certainly something involving high temperatures because you can wait 20 minutes or so and it starts up again. The only thing that occurs in my situation is fuel coming out of fuel fill compartment. Like it is boiling or pressurizing the syste and overflowing out vent or something.

 

[Spike555]

You most certainly can vapor lock a fuel injected engine. I would not say it happens often but it is definitely not uncommon. Also, vapor lock does not only occur in the fuel pump. It's not that complex of a concept it is simply the transformation of fuel from a liquid state to a gas state that causes a disruption in fuel being delivered to the engine. It can occur at any point in a fuel supply system (whether that be in the pump, the tank, the lines themselves, etc.). For example: if you park your truck on asphalt in extremely hot conditions and shut the engine off, the fuel in the lines near the engine is not moving and the mix of extremely hot air outside as well as the extremely hot air inside the engine compartment can cause the fuel to heat up enough thus forming vapor which can then cause vapor lock.

Fair enough. Whenever I think of vapor lock I think of the fuel vaporizing inside a mechanical fuel pump, so the traditional definition I guess you could say.

 

[KUpchu9702]

I am going to insulate fuel lines between the fuel filter and fuel rails. Then, I am going to insulate with a heat-shield product the fuel rails. After I do this and experiment in the heat, we have 115-degree weather coming soon. If this does not help I will try premium fuel next. After that, I am going to look at the charcoal canister next. As I sometimes top off when refueling. With the heat and sloshing of fuel in the tank pressure may be building up in the system and canister becomes blocked with either fluid or vapor. Then, in July I will be in Colorado for the summer and will get to see about any issues I might have with altitude. Thanks for everyone inputs. Glad to hear I am not the only one with this issue. I think that we will get to the source eventually.

 

[abuck99]

Just OPINION: I believe the vapor pressure situation that is occurring with these later model 100's is related to the EVAP system, including but not limited to the charcoal canister mounted near the spare tire. The EVAP system has been changed to comply with EPA reg.'s a two or three times between 98 -2007 getting more complicated with each revision. Moving the canister from the engine bay to the rear underside of the truck seems to have made the situation worse and later production years seem more susceptible to this issue; which could be clogged canister, failing vacuum lines, failing sensor(s). There is a fairly clear step by step diagnosis plan for the EVAP system in the FSM. Tedious but a good a good place to start to rule out functioning components.

 

[kgrove]

Follow up question: I'm also in Phoenix and today the high is 116F. I just finished about an hour of freeway driving and parked the car for 10 minutes, and when I returned and tried to restart the car, it idled horribly for 10-20 seconds then died. I tried several more times to re-start, but each time it would either not catch, or would idle roughly for a few seconds and then die.

Let's assume for a second it was vapor lock due to too much ethanol in the fuel... Is there a quick solution to overcome the vapor lock and get it running right away? If I wait long enough, it will fix itself, but I don't want to wait half an hour at 116F (and its supposed to get hotter tomorrow and the next day). Ideally when this happens, there would be a quick kick in the backside kind of solution that gets me back running immediately. Longer term, I can try and remember to use premium gas when I know its super hot (I've never had this problem before and had this same truck here in Phx for 10 years).

And if it's not vapor lock... what are other possibilities? Given the truck ran fine prior to parking, it has to be some kind of heat soak issue... something expanded or some sensor overheated and got tricked into doing something it shouldn't. Given this has never happened before, I'd prefer knowing exactly what it was so I can prevent it from happening again (the last time you want a mechanical problem is when the temperature is literally hazardous to your health).

 

[BigRogers79]

Wow....seems to be a lot of this going around lately, i just experienced it last week for the first time. I was driving back from Colorado, passing through a section of the panhandle, stopped at a rest stop and couldn't start the truck for 20 minutes or so.....

Here is my write up as well as another thread i have stumbled upon. Not sure they will help, but it is at least some literature on the subject.

Starting Problem.....Bad Fuel?

Engine shutting off during long trips.

 

[Spike555]

Follow up question: I'm also in Phoenix and today the high is 116F. I just finished about an hour of freeway driving and parked the car for 10 minutes, and when I returned and tried to restart the car, it idled horribly for 10-20 seconds then died. I tried several more times to re-start, but each time it would either not catch, or would idle roughly for a few seconds and then die.

Let's assume for a second it was vapor lock due to too much ethanol in the fuel... Is there a quick solution to overcome the vapor lock and get it running right away? If I wait long enough, it will fix itself, but I don't want to wait half an hour at 116F (and its supposed to get hotter tomorrow and the next day). Ideally when this happens, there would be a quick kick in the backside kind of solution that gets me back running immediately. Longer term, I can try and remember to use premium gas when I know its super hot (I've never had this problem before and had this same truck here in Phx for 10 years).

And if it's not vapor lock... what are other possibilities? Given the truck ran fine prior to parking, it has to be some kind of heat soak issue... something expanded or some sensor overheated and got tricked into doing something it shouldn't. Given this has never happened before, I'd prefer knowing exactly what it was so I can prevent it from happening again (the last time you want a mechanical problem is when the temperature is literally hazardous to your health).

https://lucasoil.com/products/fuel-treatments/safeguard-ethanol-fuel-conditioner-with-stabilizers
You can try a ethanaol fuel treatment, I have no idea if that will help, but will not hurt.
Maybe the crank sensor is the culprit? It's right under the crank pulley, engines hot, pavement is hotter, park, heat soaks the crank sensor and you're done.
Crank sensor tells the spark plugs when to spark. Weak/no crank sensor signal, no sparky sparky and no runny runny. Thats all I've got on this, you're our guinea pig, let us know.

Add the fuel treatment to your current tank of fuel, don't fill up, just add the treatment. Report back.
Then top off with premium, report back.
Then do the crank sensor if you have the time/money and report back.

We are all counting on you.

 

[WaterCruiser]

You most certainly can vapor lock a fuel injected engine. I would not say it happens often but it is definitely not uncommon. Also, vapor lock does not only occur in the fuel pump. It's not that complex of a concept it is simply the transformation of fuel from a liquid state to a gas state that causes a disruption in fuel being delivered to the engine. It can occur at any point in a fuel supply system (whether that be in the pump, the tank, the lines themselves, etc.). For example: if you park your truck on asphalt in extremely hot conditions and shut the engine off, the fuel in the lines near the engine is not moving and the mix of extremely hot air outside as well as the extremely hot air inside the engine compartment can cause the fuel to heat up enough thus forming vapor which can then cause vapor lock.

just curious about the whole vapor lock phenomena: wouldn't there need to be some volume for the fuel to expand [into a gaseous state]? if so, where in the fuel delivery system would this occur?

 

[TheForger]

just curious about the whole vapor lock phenomena: wouldn't there need to be some volume for the fuel to expand [into a gaseous state]? if so, where in the fuel delivery system would this occur?

I will do my best at answering this but in short - yes, in order for a liquid to transition into a gaseous state of matter some volume is needed for this to occur. If you look at basic thermodynamic principals you will see that heat increases the pressure of gasoline, and when the vapor pressure equals the pressure on the fuel tank, fuel line, fuel filter, or wherever it is, it will vaporize. Some of the fuel lines are rubber which can (in certain circumstances) slightly expand (on a microscopic level) due to pressure in the lines themselves. But there's no definitive place where vapor lock solely occurs because it can happen at almost any point before it enters the engine. For example - in the fuel filter itself since it is so close to the engine. The heat trapped inside the engine bay can increase the temperature of the fuel inside the filter (which has enough area to expand into a gas). And as you know molecules are more dispersed in a gas than in a liquid, so this would change the air/fuel ratio that makes it into the engine and, as a result, the engine will not run properly if at all. Like I said though it's not something that occurs extremely often and yes the heat I mentioned needs to be very high, but it is certainly possible and after driving from Little Rock, AR to Tucson, AZ last year where it was 112* I have figured that out first hand.

 

[KUpchu9702]

Here's an update. I insulated the fuel filter, fuel lines from said to fuel rails and the fuel rails. Then I ran it with premium fuel. After driving in the heat and into higher altitude, I pulled over and parked it turning it off and removing the key. I went inside an establishment where I spent maybe 15 minutes. When I returned to the vehicle it would crank but not catch. There was a small amount of fuel at fuel fill area and intense vapor with a strong scent of gas. I could hear what sounded like a percolator with gas cap on but would stop when gas cap was removed. When I removed the gas cap there was no intense swoosh of pressure sound like you would expect, when doing so if it were pressure. The amount of vapor and gas smell increased obviously. I opted to open the hood and let it sit while going off to have some lunch. As usual, I returned and it started right up again and did not repeat itself the rest of the day. By the way, no codes thrown this time as well.
I have printed out the two TSB's to take to my mechanic and will proceed with these next.By the way thanks for these posts.
As a recap, I have already replaced the fan clutch assembly and the main engine relay. Neither of these helped in any way.
By the way, I was with a friend who has a 2004 100 and we drove the exact same route, his vehicle had the same strong gas smell but no issue with starting.

 

[Spike555]

My '04 does that noise by the gas cap after shutting it off, been doing it since day one, I assumed it was normal. It stops after a few min.
I've never worried about it. Never had any nois when opening the gas cap, even while this noise is going on.
I have also never had any problems with it starting, but then we don't get that hot here.

Have you looked into the crank sensor?

 

[kgrove]

An additional piece of info... maybe this helps somebody who knows more about the fuel systems than I do figure out what's happening, and more importantly how to prevent it or fix it when it happens absent waiting 20 minutes (remember - when this happens, it's freaking hot... you could have children or pets in the car etc where waiting 30 minutes in 115-120F heat is at best uncomfortable and at worst dangerous).

While driving around yesterday in 120F (welcome to Phoenix), I noticed several times I could smell fuel outside my car. The first time I brushed it off and assumed it was from the gas station a few yards from where I parked. When I parked in my garage, however, it reeked of gas. When I poked around, I could smell gas more strongly around the gas cap area and under the drivers side rear wheel well near the fuel filler. I also noticed my gas cap doesn't click any longer. So... could this be happening related with faulty gas caps and the fuel vapor recycling system and that high heat is doing something that's tripping a sensor? After letting the car sit, pressures equalize and the sensor goes back to normal... Is there any other information to be gained from the fuel smell that could explain an LC turning over but not catching in high heat?

I'm fishing for more ideas here beyond vapor lock. I still consider vapor lock candidate for the explanation, but given fuel injection systems, I think it's wise to look for other explanations as well... especially explanations that if correct would fix the situation and/or immediately get the truck running.

 

[abuck99]

As I posted earlier, I believe there are interrelated issues of heat soak that point to EVAP system compromises; where under certain conditions the system cannot keep up with vapor expansion and recirculation of fuel vapor. Any one of a number of issues like fuel quality, EVAP system health; long term dust collecting in vent lines, failing evap switches, sensors, aging vacuum lines, connections etc, fuel pressure regulator, fuel cap, and an aging vehicle platform.

I you have access to the FSM, read up on the emission system in section "EC" (emission control). If provides the detailed check list for ensuring the evap system is functioning properly. If you have tech stream, you may be able to individually test evap system components from there.

Beyond FI system functionality are fuel related issues: seasonality, ethanol and substandard blending practices. Prefacing I'm no expert in gasoline distillate or its properties, but I have started researching it to at least have a better understanding of the factors impacting "runability" and what causes the climate related runability issues being experienced here. Rather than repeating what Ive read in the technical paper I am referencing, I've provided the link so anyone who cares to research and understand on their own can at will. Its a 120 pages of all you want to know about gasoline, its history, properties and more.

http://www.chevronwithtechron.ca/products/documents/69083_MotorGas_Tech_Review.pdf

Just to confirm, even with fuel injection you can get vapor lock in a FI system at one or more at points between the injector and the tank.

 

[Spike555]

Here is a question for you guys having this problem, what kind of gas are you buying? Are you buying from Joe's Crab Shack and Gas N Go or from a name brand like Shell, BP, etc.?

 

[Chrismanjs]

Here is a question for you guys having this problem, what kind of gas are you buying? Are you buying from Joe's Crab Shack and Gas N Go or from a name brand like Shell, BP, etc.?

Last time @KUpchu9702 filled up before last mentioned trip last weekend he put a whole tank of premium from shell. And still had issues.

 

[Spike555]

Last time @KUpchu9702 filled up before last mentioned trip last weekend he put a whole tank of premium from shell. And still had issues.

Thank you. I must have missed that part.

 

[Chrismanjs]

Thank you. I must have missed that part.

He may not have said that. I was with him. I'm the friend with the 2004.

 

[aging fleet]

I believe there are interrelated issues of heat soak that point to EVAP system compromises; where under certain conditions the system cannot keep up with vapor expansion and recirculation of fuel vapor. Any one of a number of issues like fuel quality, EVAP system health; long term dust collecting in vent lines, failing evap switches, sensors, aging vacuum lines, connections etc, fuel pressure regulator, fuel cap, and an aging vehicle platform.

I tend to agree especially in those cases where pressure is so high it's blowing through the gas cap. Would be interested to know if the pressure switching VSV, vapor pressure sensor and charcoal canister is working correctly in these cases.

 

[jerryb]

do you guys think the fuel lines are being over pressurized? The fsm way to dump the pressure isn't to time consuming. Not to mention loosening a fitting under the hood.

Also, do any of you know if there's a shortcut to run the fuel pump with a wire on a relay or socket somewhere in the bay?
I have fittings and a gauge coming to double up on the banjo fitting between the damper and the regulator at the crossover pipe. I would be useful to know your pressures if you have this issue. I'm talking about a five minute leakdown at the rail and even a over pressure from the regulator not getting a good high vac signal. Your regulator should let about half the pressure/fuel back down the line in five minutes. But then, maybe the EVAP stuff is forcing a no start event.
It would be interesting if the system is over pressed at either a hot shutdown or a five minute Off period.
Depending on the type of fuel pump, I don't believe the damper on the 4.7 has much effect on things. I'm not sure though. I don't know if these are batch fired or sequential. Take that with a grain of salt. I know nothing of toyotas fuel injection.

I'll post up part stuff when I get the correct take off banjo.