Gossamer- '87 FJ60 aka "The Red Monster"

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reevesci said:
This afternoon I didn't feel like fabricating much.. I started on the PS rust repair on Goss.

Got the quarter, inside/outside dogleg and rocker cut out and patched in. I had .045" wire in the machine so a few spot welds to keep evrything in place until this weekend. I'll changeout wire and finish the PS up and get started on the DS and interior pans.

Cheers,

J
Click to expand...

Hey reevesci, I've got a question about how you go about cutting/welding that rear PS quarter panel, with the gas tank/line so close. From observing the work that both you and @GLTHFJ60 do (if I recall, he recently chopped the bottom of those rear quarter panels out and welded in flat plated on the bottom), you seem to be comfortable cutting/welding with the gas tank still installed?
How do you judge the risk and know how close/long you can work a spot or do you somehow reduce that risk of sparks flying around...
 
Slow Left said:
Hey reevesci, I've got a question about how you go about cutting/welding that rear PS quarter panel, with the gas tank/line so close. From observing the work that both you and @GLTHFJ60 do (if I recall, he recently chopped the bottom of those rear quarter panels out and welded in flat plated on the bottom), you seem to be comfortable cutting/welding with the gas tank still installed?
How do you judge the risk and know how close/long you can work a spot or do you somehow reduce that risk of sparks flying around...
Click to expand...

Diesel = safe for sparks.

If you still have gas, then I'd make sure that your vents are all sealed well, that you have no leaks, and that you have a big fire extinguisher near by. If you wanted to go all out, then fill the entire gas system with water.
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
Diesel = safe for sparks.

If you still have gas, then I'd make sure that your vents are all sealed well, that you have no leaks, and that you have a big fire extinguisher near by. If you wanted to go all out, then fill the entire gas system with water.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've still got the 2F gasser. The tank is system seals well. I replaced those fuel line hoses on the separator recently with new, braided hose and the gas cap is new. When I remove the gas cap it releases vapor pressure that has built up.

I've got a DeWalt disc grinder for cutting and a 18V Milwaukee Sawzall. Not worried about the cutting as much as the welding (maybe I should be though...more sparks?), because the only welding experience I have was self taught on a farm growing up. Common sense would tell me to do the DS first and if I'm still alive go for the PS. In all seriousness I'd probably practice on something else first before trying even the DS...

If I went the water in gas tank route, then steps afterwards would be:
1) Drain all the water out
2) Blow out the system with compressed air
3) Let the system sit open to air dry
4) Add gasoline with some sort of 'drier' additive

Or another option would be to just piggy back the rust surgery on dropping the gas tank to do preventative rust maintenance on the tank and replace the fuel sender (the tank recall was done but it was done early in the 1990's)...
 
I'd drop the tank before I filled everything with water. Much easier. Make sure to cap all of the vent lines as well as the hard lines that run up front though.
 
Slow Left said:
Hey reevesci, I've got a question about how you go about cutting/welding that rear PS quarter panel, with the gas tank/line so close. From observing the work that both you and @GLTHFJ60 do (if I recall, he recently chopped the bottom of those rear quarter panels out and welded in flat plated on the bottom), you seem to be comfortable cutting/welding with the gas tank still installed?
How do you judge the risk and know how close/long you can work a spot or do you somehow reduce that risk of sparks flying around...
Click to expand...

SL, Johnny pretty much covered it. He and I both have diesels. I have cut on gassers for years with no issues.

However, you can make a shield out of plywood, scrap sheetmetal, etc.. to block the sparks/arc between work area and tank/lines. When I have a gasser, I wrap the filler neck, gas cap and lines in wet towels/rags.. Vapor is the main issue with gasoline, not so much the liquid itself... Making sure there are no leaks (liquid/vapor) are the two big items to be cautious of.

Flammable and combustible liquids themselves do not burn. It is the mixture of their vapors and air that burns. Gasoline, with a flashpoint of -40°C (-40°F), is a flammable liquid. Even at temperatures as low as -40°C (-40°F), it gives off enough vapor to form a burnable mixture in air. Phenol is a combustible liquid. It has a flashpoint of 79°C (175°F), so it must be heated above that temperature before it can be ignited in air. A material's flammable or explosive limits also relate to its fire and explosion hazards. These limits give the range between the lowest and highest concentrations of vapor in air that will burn or explode.

The lower flammable limit or lower explosive limit (LFL or LEL) of gasoline is 1.4 percent; the upper flammable limit or upper explosive limit (UFL or UEL) is 7.6 percent. This means that gasoline can be ignited when it is in the air at levels between 1.4 and 7.6 percent. A concentration of gasoline vapor in air below 1.4 percent is too "lean" to burn. Gasoline vapor levels above 7.6 percent are too "rich" to burn. Flammable limits, like flashpoints however, are intended as guides not as fine lines between safe and unsafe.

Use caution and don't get "comfortable" and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps,

J
 
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reevesci said:
SL, Johnny pretty much covered it. He and I both have diesels. I have cut on gassers for years with no issues.

However, you can make a shield out of plywood, scrap sheetmetal, etc.. to block the sparks/arc between work area and tank/lines. When I have a gasser, I wrap the filler neck, gas cap and lines in wet towels/rags.. Vapor is the main issue with gasoline, not so much the liquid itself... Making sure there are no leaks (liquid/vapor) are the two big items to be cautious of.

Flammable and combustible liquids themselves do not burn. It is the mixture of their vapors and air that burns. Gasoline, with a flashpoint of -40°C (-40°F), is a flammable liquid. Even at temperatures as low as -40°C (-40°F), it gives off enough vapour to form a burnable mixture in air. Phenol is a combustible liquid. It has a flashpoint of 79°C (175°F), so it must be heated above that temperature before it can be ignited in air. A material's flammable or explosive limits also relate to its fire and explosion hazards. These limits give the range between the lowest and highest concentrations of vapour in air that will burn or explode.

The lower flammable limit or lower explosive limit (LFL or LEL) of gasoline is 1.4 percent; the upper flammable limit or upper explosive limit (UFL or UEL) is 7.6 percent. This means that gasoline can be ignited when it is in the air at levels between 1.4 and 7.6 percent. A concentration of gasoline vapour in air below 1.4 percent is too "lean" to burn. Gasoline vapour levels above 7.6 percent are too "rich" to burn. Flammable limits, like flashpoints however, are intended as guides not as fine lines between safe and unsafe.

Use caution and don't get "comfortable" and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps,

J
Click to expand...

Yeah, that does help. Thanks for the explanation, because it gives a good description of the physical limits/parameters of the materials I'd be concerned with.

I remembered that Johnny had a diesel, but I was not aware that Goss was also diesel. And while I had a general idea about the differences between gasoline and diesel, the numbers help draw the risk limits.

But as you said, the real uncertainty here is going to be in the state of my tank/fuel system, whether the vapors/fuel remain contained so that the work area environment doesn't see flammable/explosive limits. In this case, since I've got replacing the fuel sender and cleaning out the tank on my to do list (albeit very far down on the list), and I've been managing the rust in the rear quarter panels, I think I'm going to double-up the two tasks and tackle the cutting/welding with the tank down, when those stars align. That'll give me a better look at any other possible rust on the body above the tank anyhow...

Great fab work on Goss by the way. It must be nice to have the fab skills to work in that 'artistic warrior' realm...where you have the effortless skill set to know what the next step is without having to battle through the uncertainty...but hang on a second...since I have no 'fab' skills yet...that must make me 'fab-u-less', right?!...one day to hopefully become 'fab-u-ful'...

Cheers.
 
Slow Left said:
Yeah, that does help. Thanks for the explanation, because it gives a good description of the physical limits/parameters of the materials I'd be concerned with.

I remembered that Johnny had a diesel, but I was not aware that Goss was also diesel. And while I had a general idea about the differences between gasoline and diesel, the numbers help draw the risk limits.

But as you said, the real uncertainty here is going to be in the state of my tank/fuel system, whether the vapors/fuel remain contained so that the work area environment doesn't see flammable/explosive limits. In this case, since I've got replacing the fuel sender and cleaning out the tank on my to do list (albeit very far down on the list), and I've been managing the rust in the rear quarter panels, I think I'm going to double-up the two tasks and tackle the cutting/welding with the tank down, when those stars align. That'll give me a better look at any other possible rust on the body above the tank anyhow...

Great fab work on Goss by the way. It must be nice to have the fab skills to work in that 'artistic warrior' realm...where you have the effortless skill set to know what the next step is without having to battle through the uncertainty...but hang on a second...since I have no 'fab' skills yet...that must make me 'fab-u-less', right?!...one day to hopefully become 'fab-u-ful'...

Cheers.
Click to expand...



SL, It'll all come a little at a time. I know I tell everyone this.. BUT, SLOW down and take your time. If you have any mechanicial ability and some ambition, YOU CAN DO IT!.. It may not be the prettiest or the best quality at first..But, it can be done.

Let me know if you ever have a question and I'll help you all I can.

Thanks for the compliment, I just get in a groove and go.. some days are more productive than others and some days.. WELL... NOTHING GOES RIGHT.. HA!

J
 
reevesci said:
SL, It'll all come a little at a time. I know I tell everyone this.. BUT, SLOW down and take your time.
Click to expand...

Oh, don't worry about that. All my FAST is gone, only Slow Left here...(as the name would confirm).

But the irony of it all is, Slow (i.e. deliberate) is almost always Fast...simply because if you know what you are doing, you will succeed. In other words, the logic of the process...the minimal necessary yet sufficient steps in the process for the immediate task will always get you there FASTER (there it is, I've used the F word). If you don't know what you are doing, you will fail and that will slow you down until you learn.

The challenge arises in failing fast and smart enough so that you can:
1) become an expert (knowledge, skills and abilities) in that process
2) develop the correct judgement about the context within you act (harmony with the immediate environment in which you apply those skills)

I think that's what so great about MUD. Folks who know what they are doing, or many folks who have a reasonable idea of what they are doing, can help other 'fail fast and smart' at a lower cost because they can slow the steps of the process down to the necessary, important aspects.

So once again, thanks for the help...it's really SLOWED me down to the point where I'll be knocking this stuff out in no time (see, avoided the F word there)...
 
Slow Left said:
Oh, don't worry about that. All my FAST is gone, only Slow Left here...(as the name would confirm).

But the irony of it all is, Slow (i.e. deliberate) is almost always Fast...simply because if you know what you are doing, you will succeed. In other words, the logic of the process...the minimal necessary yet sufficient steps in the process for the immediate task will always get you there FASTER (there it is, I've used the F word). If you don't know what you are doing, you will fail and that will slow you down until you learn.

The challenge arises in failing fast and smart enough so that you can:
1) become an expert (knowledge, skills and abilities) in that process
2) develop the correct judgement about the context within you act (harmony with the immediate environment in which you apply those skills)

I think that's what so great about MUD. Folks who know what they are doing, or many folks who have a reasonable idea of what they are doing, can help other 'fail fast and smart' at a lower cost because they can slow the steps of the process down to the necessary, important aspects.

So once again, thanks for the help...it's really SLOWED me down to the point where I'll be knocking this stuff out in no time (see, avoided the F word there)...
Click to expand...


Glad to help, hopefully that's what we are all here for on MUD.

J
 
SL, It'll all come a little at a time. I know I tell everyone this.. BUT, SLOW down and take your time. If you have any mechanicial ability and some ambition, YOU CAN DO IT!.. It may not be the prettiest or the best quality at first..But, it can be done.

AMEN BROTHER !!
 
Back to the rear bumper fab. I can see again.... Having your eyes dilated SUCKS!

Finished the tire carrier, swing out stops and the tube is cut for the basket supports. Decided to make an adjustable mount.

Hope to get this completed tomorrow and off to another project.

J

P1040413.webp
P1040418.webp
P1040417.webp
P1040406.webp
 
Oh yes. That'll do quite nicely ;)
 
niffa said:
Man your fab skills are awesome, attention to detail is fantastic.
Send it to oz!!
Click to expand...

Thanks Niffa, there are a few touch ups on this one before I ship it out. This one is actually a customers.

tputterman said:
That bumper is awesome. Exactly what I am looking for. Great job so far
Click to expand...

Thank you sir.

robustbambi said:
Oh yes. That'll do quite nicely ;)
Click to expand...

Yep, got a few ideas for the new bumper.. :idea: Tomorrow the 3 jerry can/cooler basket will be done.

J
 
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