wildsmith
SILVER Star
winch plate for my T3 doesn't seem flimsy to me and it copes with my 12k winch. The Sahara's look like they compromise the approach angle quite badly, don't know if that's actually the case?
Front bumper TJM vs ARB
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Thanks Jon, does your T3 flex or seem vibrate much? How solid is it? One of the earlier posts stated that the T3 was rated for a 9k lb winch and that it seemed "flimsy" compared to the ARB.
hoser
SILVER Star
If you are concerned about durability and don't need the bull bar, the Blueberry is the one to get. There is nothing flimsy about it. Might be on backorder but it's worth the wait.
wildsmith
SILVER Star
In normal use my T3 doesn't flex or vibrate but I've only nudged a few rocks and walls with it really and not slammed it hard into anything. I would only consider the T3 and the Sahara to be about medium duty bumpers that will bend if you treat them too mean. If you need something heavy duty then probably neither of them are a good choice.
Things I like about the T3 are the bumper and winch mount being separate, less weight to lift when removing it to get at the winch. Easy to raise up to compensate for a body lift and improve approach angle. Doesn't look like an RSJ with a fancy paint job
Things I like about the T3 are the bumper and winch mount being separate, less weight to lift when removing it to get at the winch. Easy to raise up to compensate for a body lift and improve approach angle. Doesn't look like an RSJ with a fancy paint job
Hoser is spot on. If you need the bull Bar go with the ARB Commercial Bar, otherwise get the Blueberry. The build quality of the Blueberry is impressive.
The Slee is the tits but they dont have a Christmas price or fog lights. $1400 plus a paint job for the Slee, $1250 plus paint for the ARB Sahara, not sure on price for the T3 but I understand its a good bit less plus paint. I like the full coverage bars but want something different. Sure as I mount it up I will hit a deer rolling through the Texas hill country.........Murphy...
hoser
SILVER Star
Ah, so you are looking at the 98-02 Sahara bar. I would double check to see if your winch fits.
http://www.arbusa.com/uploads/PDF/accessorizeYourRig/toyotaLandCruiser100Lexus470.pdf
http://www.arbusa.com/uploads/PDF/accessorizeYourRig/toyotaLandCruiser100Lexus470.pdf
Ive got the Smitty XRC10 with amsteel line and delrin rollers that came off my old ARB bumper, it'l fit, shouldn't be a problem for any of the bumpers.
cboyd
GOLD Star
After having wrangled with this decision a month ago, I pulled the trigger on an ARB Sahara bar order. My local ARB dealer was told 3 weeks from Seattle, but three weeks came and no bumper. They called and were now told they were just leaving AUS and would 5 weeks on the boat and 2 more in US...
So now I'm back to looking at he T3 from Slee.... This thread was helpful. Any T3 owners out there have more feedback after the length of this thread and time in the field? Specifically interested in how well the powder coat is holding up and any airbag issues.
So now I'm back to looking at he T3 from Slee.... This thread was helpful. Any T3 owners out there have more feedback after the length of this thread and time in the field? Specifically interested in how well the powder coat is holding up and any airbag issues.
wildsmith
SILVER Star
The last time I saw 'my' 100 (sold it to a friend) about a month ago the powder coating on the bumper seemed to be holding up fine. I don't think he's tested the air bag compatibility 
One of my gripes with TJM (I started off with the TJM T-3C bumper), ARB & Ironman bumpers is the lack of integrated recovery points. Really an important design feature they left off...
The Sahara is IMHO a bit of a goofy mount system where they use 30mm U-channel shaped spacers between the frame bumper mount and the frame itself. Ditto for Ironman front bumper.
As mentioned above there is no comparison between Slee's Blueberry bumper and ARB/TJM front bumpers if you are really after a well thought out, heavy duty, properly engineered bumper made from substantial materials. If you were able to get a look at the inside surface of these bumpers, including how the side wings are integrated to the main bumper section...well its just no contest.
The TJM T3C winch mount, without modification, is a weak design. For anything other than light weight straight on winch pulls their anemic winch plate will get tweaked/bent...mine did. Not a big deal if you have some steel, a means to cut the steel and a welder. But again...it just points to the product being more of a wannabe bumper with significant shortcomings...
Just my $.02 and maybe all its worth.
The Sahara is IMHO a bit of a goofy mount system where they use 30mm U-channel shaped spacers between the frame bumper mount and the frame itself. Ditto for Ironman front bumper.
As mentioned above there is no comparison between Slee's Blueberry bumper and ARB/TJM front bumpers if you are really after a well thought out, heavy duty, properly engineered bumper made from substantial materials. If you were able to get a look at the inside surface of these bumpers, including how the side wings are integrated to the main bumper section...well its just no contest.
The TJM T3C winch mount, without modification, is a weak design. For anything other than light weight straight on winch pulls their anemic winch plate will get tweaked/bent...mine did. Not a big deal if you have some steel, a means to cut the steel and a welder. But again...it just points to the product being more of a wannabe bumper with significant shortcomings...
Just my $.02 and maybe all its worth.
cboyd
GOLD Star
Spressomon - are you still running the T3? I appreciate the feedback. Point taken on the winch plate. I have access to some fab guys, so maybe ill do that myself. I may just start here and then move to the Blueberry if I start wheeling it harder than I plan to currently in the next few years.
Part of this is the WAF -- and getting buy-in the mods over some time.
[WAF == Wife Acceptance Factor]
^ no...I sold it to FullyLitLED (Leo David) who later sold it to somebody else on the forum.
If you're going to install a winch bigger than a Warn 8000 you'll need to fab new side brackets, for clearance, for the winch plate supports. Not a big deal but just so you know...did the same to mount my 9.5xp.
If you're going to install a winch bigger than a Warn 8000 you'll need to fab new side brackets, for clearance, for the winch plate supports. Not a big deal but just so you know...did the same to mount my 9.5xp.
cboyd
GOLD Star
After talking to Christo a few times and weighing opinions here, I pulled the trigger on the T3! It's on the way!
Think about this for a second. Recovery points are not used for winching, theyre used for pulling someone with a strap, correct? That's a hell of a tug the bar will receive when doing this. Have you seen the consequences of pulling from the bumper? I have seen a BUNCH of front and rear bars that have been literally torn off because of people using the recovery points on them instead of the recovery points on the chassis. I do believe there's a reason why they do this...
Now, all the commercial ARB bullbars ive seen have integrated shackle points, 60, 70, 80 & 90 series i am sure of the 100's we dont see much.
I think i'd much rather buy or build extra recovery points than putting the stress on my front bumper, although I have grade 8 bolts all around. I just feel safer attaching the shackle to that instead of risking damage to the car or someone else by attaching it to the bar, theres a lot that can fail there...
hoser
SILVER Star
Lugueto, yes, most of the failed snatch strap pulls you would see on the internet would be from the bar/bumper. But it would be a shame to classify them all into the same category as most don't/didn't have proper recovery points. I don't even think the 70 and 80 series ARB commercial bars have proper recovery points. ARB advertises them as jacking points and nothing more.
Let's take a look at frame recovery points vs bumper recovery points in a straight line snatch pull. Most frame recovery brackets are attached to the frame via 2-3 bolts held in, sometimes, by captive nuts. This bracket is beefy and so are the bolts. It will not break before the frame tears.
Now take a bumper with proper recovery points like the blueberry. It uses the same 2 lower bolt holes (which probably are the strongest) plus 4 more holes through the same frame horn. The two horizontal bolt holes actually go through two walls of frame.
6 is better than 2 in my book. And to rip the bumper completely off, you'd need to rip 12 points off.
An off-axis snatch pull might yield different results but I'll leave it at this.
Let's take a look at frame recovery points vs bumper recovery points in a straight line snatch pull. Most frame recovery brackets are attached to the frame via 2-3 bolts held in, sometimes, by captive nuts. This bracket is beefy and so are the bolts. It will not break before the frame tears.
Now take a bumper with proper recovery points like the blueberry. It uses the same 2 lower bolt holes (which probably are the strongest) plus 4 more holes through the same frame horn. The two horizontal bolt holes actually go through two walls of frame.
6 is better than 2 in my book. And to rip the bumper completely off, you'd need to rip 12 points off.
An off-axis snatch pull might yield different results but I'll leave it at this.
That's a mouthful. Using broad scope generalities lend little credence to your argument(s).
A well designed, engineered and fabricated bumper, such as Slee's Blueberry front bumper, spreads a recovery load over a much larger surface area including redundant, for recovery event analysis, mounting points to each frame section. Additionally this bumper, with its integrated winch mount, serves as a bridge between the two frame sections thereby further solidifying the structure.
Its apparent by your comments you have not done a direct comparison between the bumpers in question here.
Just say'n
ARB or TJM , if you drop the cruiser on the wing you will see something like this.
so dont drop the cruiser on the wing....... and the hit was not even all the way on the wing..............
so dont drop the cruiser on the wing....... and the hit was not even all the way on the wing..............
I havent seen the slee bumpers first hand as im not in the US, so I cant say I can make a direct comparison, at least not first hand. I have had a lot of first hand experience with all three brands (ARB, TJM and Ironman) and have had COUNTLESS venezuelan made bumpers, the actual one on the 80 was custom made based on the Slee short bus by the way.
Im not implying that any of the bumpers mentioned are strong enough or not, but I think you underestimate the forces involved when trying to recover a properly stuck 4x4. The part where I said ive seen bumpers ripped off I meant in real life, not the internet, and ive had the chance to see this a bunch of times. One of those was a friend's 70 series' rear bumper which did not bend or break by itself, but rather ripped the threads off the chassis and bent the rear crossmember, which i think is sturdier and stronger than any bar anybody can make. This was a properly fastened and designed rear bar that he destroyed i might add. I also saw a guy that was aiding in recovering a vehicle, a bolt on recovery point (placed on the front bar) failed and sent a shackle complete with recovery point and bolts flying straight to his face, luckily he survived with no permanent long term damage, but this kind of recovery point is not the one in question though.
My point is, no matter how overbuilt, well designed or how many anchor points a recovery point has, anything can fail. And while Hoser says than more bolts is better and that is generally the rule, the more leverage you have on something the easier it will be to bend or break, and there;s no way a bar can have less leverage than a proper, chassis recovery point.
I will NEVER try to use a recovery point on a bar if I have proper chassis recovery points, not even if these are extremely well built and I will never recommend it either.. Experience has taught me this.
Cheers,
Luis
Recovery points are also used for winching.
