Front Axle Hub Flange backlash?

[ton504]

Did you get a chance to mate the new flange to the old axle?

I think toyota has outter cv joint separately if you decide to go that route. I would just replace the whole axle since you're unsure if its oem.

 

[2001LC]

Did you get a chance to mate the new flange to the old axle?

I think toyota has outter cv joint separately if you decide to go that route. I would just replace the whole axle since you're unsure if its oem.

I've not checked the OP vehicle's backlash with new flanges yet, waiting on (additional) flanges.

Toyota no longer shows a part number for the outboard joint shaft/axle or dust cover. I would look for the part # from some other Toyota like a Tacoma, if working with an OEM and all other points all the way out to axle of inboard joint tulip were very very tight. I was able to find the outboard dust cover/seal part # 90304-A0001, which is from Tacoma and fits our 100's.

Although I did do a comparison test on my LC's flanges/axle with 165k miles on them, which is the factory assemble. I decided to just leave the new flanges on LC. The LC had a smaller amount of play (backlash) and new flanges did reduce the play by ~.1mm (exaggerated measurement). I measured this by holding a micrometer by hand up to the brake caliper as fixed point out to a wheel stud, which is about 3" out from teeth of axle. This gave me reference point, although a very exaggerated measurement reading.

During removal, I also checked breakaway preload of wheel bearings with brake caliper on (not the best practice as this could possible give me a higher reading), snap ring to hub flange gap and total back lash of front drive shaft to front differential. Replacing PS snap ring.

Below are the measurements I got:
B (Before):. A (After):.
DS:
Breakaway Pre-Load B: ~1lb, no torque reading. A: 10LB, adjusting nut torque to 55ft lbf. (caliper on). Highest torque I've needed.
Breakaway Pre-Load B: 5lb 8oz. A: 12LB, locking nut torque to 47ft lbf. (caliper on).
Gap B: 0.155mm A: 0.20mm (Used puller)
Snap ring thickness B: 2.37mm A: 2.37mm
Backlash from lug stud B: 0.37mm A: 0.29mm (exaggerated)
Drive train Backlash B: no reading. A: 12.50mm (exaggerated)

PS:
Breakaway Pre-load B: ~1lb, no torque reading. A: 9LB 8oz, adjusting nut torque to 30ft lbf. (caliper on).
Breakaway Pre-load B: 8lb. A: 12lb, locking nut torque to 47ft lbf. (caliper on).
Gap B: 0.24mm. A: 0.04mm (Used puller)
Snap ring thickness B: 2.16mm. A: 2.37mm (replaced, part #90520-31007)
Backlash from lug stud B: 0.70mm. A: 0.60mm (exaggerated)
Drive train Back Lash ?

Using a puller to pull axle out taunt:

You can see the backlash (gap) in the difference of these two pictures on LC.
PS axle rotated clockwise then counterclockwise in following picture:

The micrometer's gap gives you and idea of how exaggerated this reference measurement is:

 

[2001LC]

I did manage to get a picture of both vehicle's axle, but without measurements of the aftermarket front drive shaft axle.

PS of axle with old flange & axle looked pretty good for 165K miles on my all factory LC.

DS of after market axle with new OEM flange. This axle had the old flange that looked unusually worn pictured earlier in this thread.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Not to send you into a worry spiral, but you've mentioned in the past tightening the hubs pretty far into spec, can't remember what your rationale was. I'd be a little curious about the heat coloration on the axle end. Could be from a dry hub, could be from too much friction.

 

[Julian Stead]

Could just be the manufactering process on the aftermarket CV. The wheel bearing would of been shot if that much heat was being transfered to the end of the shaft.

 

[2001LC]

Not to send you into a worry spiral, but you've mentioned in the past tightening the hubs pretty far into spec, can't remember what your rationale was. I'd be a little curious about the heat coloration on the axle end. Could be from a dry hub, could be from too much friction.

The axle showing the high heat marks is from the bearings that I found very loose. Claw washers very deeply scored, and snap ring scored and gap very wide (0.60mm). I believe PO used shop that used old school (hand tight) to set preload.

I've set the torque on wheel bearing adjusting nut really tight this time on LC, as you've noticed. This does concern me, so I'm carry an inferred thermometer with me. I drove ten miles on highway, then ten miles in town. Took reading off hub flange at 78F to 82F with outside ambient temp at ~65F. This was actually about the same temp as when I torqued less with less preload (~7lb). I've been increasing torque over the years, based obtain a higher preload. I've only reached the FSM recommended preload of 9.5 to 15lb recently (2K miles ago).

We had weather coming in which cut me short on time, and I didn't pull & inspect the LC's claw washers this last time with only 2k on them. But each repacked I've pushing preload higher and higher. Each time claw washer has looked better with less scoring, and bearings haven't gotten worse. Scoring indicates chatter.

I'll be replacing the LC bearings & races next repack as they'll have 190K on them and have never looked very good. At least not on DS side where I found loose bearings. This was from lock washer not being bent (PO). That side the claw washer was really scored badly.

It seem the more miles on the bearings the high the torque needed to reach FSM preload. I feel obtain FSM recommended preload is key health of bearing, races, spindle, snap ring, hub flange and axle.

Could just be the manufactering process on the aftermarket CV. The wheel bearing would of been shot if that much heat was being transfered to the end of the shaft.

I too wonder about after market axle, but looks pretty good. Only way to know for sure is to set up new after market Interparts front drive shaft, flange, bearings & races and snap ring. Maintain properly and see if it then eats flange.

I do know these things:
PO was poor at maintaining and took to non Toyota shop all to often.

1. Front tires worn out with rears good. This indicates wheels not keep properly balanced.
2. Claw washer deeply scored/grooved. This indicates wheel bearing to loose leading to wheel bearing chatter IMHO.
3. Snap ring gap to wide. This indicates snap ring gap not set properly and/or widen over time do to chatter.
4. One knuckle replaced, with no sign of impact. This indicates bearing preload to loose creating chatter, damaging bearings, race & spindle. Which feel & sounds would have alerted anyone attuned to that sort of stuff, which I am.
5. Drive shaft outboard seals both damaged. This may have been from after market parts, or from excess movement and vibration.
6. Both front drive shaft replaced at some point. Signs of old CV joint lube around boot seam area of frame & body. Neglecting boot leak caused failure or someone just found it faster to swap front drive shafts then reboot. Boot leaking was probably brought on early, from poor maintenance leading to excess vibration.

Talking with a Toyota shop mechanic he said: Loose wheel bearing lead to chatter, eats claw washer, widens snap ring gap and excesses vibration. In out movement of axle and hub with this chatter starts eat at teeth of hub flange & axle. This leads to the clunk from neutral to drive.

 

[Nightbrew]

The axle showing the high heat marks is from the bearings that I found very loose. Claw washers very deeply scored, and snap ring scored and gap very wide (0.60mm). I believe PO used shop that used old school (hand tight) to set preload.

View attachment 1243318

I've set the torque on wheel bearing adjusting nut really tight this time on LC, as you've noticed. This does concern me, so I'm carry an inferred thermometer with me. I drove ten miles on highway, then ten miles in town. Took reading off hub flange at 78F to 82F with outside ambient temp at ~65F. This was actually about the same temp as when I torqued less with less preload (~7lb). I've been increasing torque over the years, based obtain a higher preload. I've only reached the FSM recommended preload of 9.5 to 15lb recently (2K miles ago).

We had weather coming in which cut me short on time, and I didn't pull & inspect the LC's claw washers this last time with only 2k on them. But each repacked I've pushing preload higher and higher. Each time claw washer has looked better with less scoring, and bearings haven't gotten worse. Scoring indicates chatter.

I'll be replacing the LC bearings & races next repack as they'll have 190K on them and have never looked very good. At least not on DS side where I found loose bearings. This was from lock washer not being bent (PO). That side the claw washer was really scored badly.

It seem the more miles on the bearings the high the torque needed to reach FSM preload. I feel obtain FSM recommended preload is key health of bearing, races, spindle, snap ring, hub flange and axle.



I too wonder about after market axle, but looks pretty good. Only way to know for sure is to set up new after market Interparts front drive shaft, flange, bearings & races and snap ring. Maintain properly and see if it then eats flange.

I do know these things:
PO was poor at maintaining and took to non Toyota shop all to often.

1. Front tires worn out with rears good. This indicates wheels not keep properly balanced.
2. Claw washer deeply scored/grooved. This indicates wheel bearing to loose leading to wheel bearing chatter IMHO.
3. Snap ring gap to wide. This indicates snap ring gap not set properly and/or widen over time do to chatter.
4. One knuckle replaced, with no sign of impact. This indicates bearing preload to loose creating chatter, damaging bearings, race & spindle. Which feel & sounds would have alerted anyone attuned to that sort of stuff, which I am.
5. Drive shaft outboard seals both damaged. This may have been from after market parts, or from excess movement and vibration.
6. Both front drive shaft replaced at some point. Signs of old CV joint lube around boot seam area of frame & body. Neglecting boot leak caused failure or someone just found it faster to swap front drive shafts then reboot. Boot leaking was probably brought on early, from poor maintenance leading to excess vibration.

Talking with a Toyota shop mechanic he said: Loose wheel bearing lead to chatter, eats claw washer, widens snap ring gap and excesses vibration. In out movement of axle and hub with this chatter starts eat at teeth of hub flange & axle. This leads to the clunk from neutral to drive.

@2001LC Any updates on the acceptable amount of play between axle and hub flange? I am gathering parts for an upcoming brake rotor replacement and wheel bearing repack or replace, and I noticed I have some play between axle and hub flange. I would much rather do it all at once if I need to. Anyone have a video of what is considered acceptable or unacceptable? That would help me and probably many others in the future.

 

[2001LC]

@2001LC Any updates on the acceptable amount of play between axle and hub flange? I am gathering parts for an upcoming brake rotor replacement and wheel bearing repack or replace, and I noticed I have some play between axle and hub flange. I would much rather do it all at once if I need to. Anyone have a video of what is considered acceptable or unacceptable? That would help me and probably many others in the future.

New axle (FDS) & hub flange has zero play.

Some play is acceptable at 230K miles. Key is condition of splines (teeth) of hub flange and axle of front drive shaft (FDS). Also condition of FDS CV's. If splines to worn, and or snap ring groove rounded. You run the risk of shearing off splines and popping off snap ring. Then you'll be forced to use CDL, to drive and repair/replace.

All those that replaced front drive shaft and hub flange with OEM parts. Are happy they did. Why Toyota has been aggressively increasing price of FDS, 2 to 4 times a year.

FDS axle & Hub flange. If properly PM from day one, can last a very very long time. Exception is aggressive off-road bouncing the front end off the rocks in climbs. That can snap front drive shaft and front diffs. None last in those conditions.

 

[Nightbrew]

New axle (FDS) & hub flange has zero play.

Some play is acceptable at 230K miles. Key is condition of splines (teeth) of hub flange and axle of front drive shaft (FDS). Also condition of FDS CV's. If splines to worn, and or snap ring groove rounded. You run the risk of shearing off splines and popping off snap ring. Then you'll be forced to use CDL, to drive and repair/replace.

All those that replaced front drive shaft and hub flange with OEM parts. Are happy they did. Why Toyota has been aggressively increasing price of FDS, 2 to 4 times a year.

FDS axle & Hub flange. If properly PM from day one, can last a very very long time. Exception is aggressive off-road bouncing the front end off the rocks in climbs. That can snap front drive shaft and front diffs. None last in those conditions.

Thanks @2001LC as usual, for a detailed and well written response. I will try to look into my wear further when time allows. If I determine new axles are needed is oem still preferred or is the cvj rebuild a better value? Does anyone have any long term experience with the cvj remans?

 

[Malleus]

I don't know for certain, but I would suspect the splines are the JIS-B-2016-1995 standard. The fits are H7/n7 (shaft/hub). This is essentially zero clearance on the tooth flanks, but that is only what is acceptable manufacturing, not what is acceptable wear. I'm not a spline expert, (although I have built a few axles), but this guy is (trigger alert: may contain dweeb info). Since the hub (drive flange) is a wear part, I would guess that Toyota would say any wear is cause for replacement.

Just my unasked-for-2¢

 

[2001LC]

Thanks @2001LC as usual, for a detailed and well written response. I will try to look into my wear further when time allows. If I determine new axles are needed is oem still preferred or is the cvj rebuild a better value? Does anyone have any long term experience with the cvj remans?

New OEM FDS (AKA CV) is best. Toyota also sell outer CV. They can be parred to good used inner CV or remain inner..

Either CVJ or Toyota OEM rebuilt have save common issues. Axle splines and snap groove are not replace or recondition. You get what you get. They typically use inferior boots also.

I don't know for certain, but I would suspect the splines are the JIS-B-2016-1995 standard. The fits are H7/n7 (shaft/hub). This is essentially zero clearance on the tooth flanks, but that is only what is acceptable manufacturing, not what is acceptable wear. I'm not a spline expert, (although I have built a few axles), but this guy is (trigger alert: may contain dweeb info). Since the hub (drive flange) is a wear part, I would guess that Toyota would say any wear is cause for replacement.

Just my unasked-for-2¢

When I inspect FDS, I grade them at each point on a 1 to 10 scale. 10 is new:
1st I look at outer snap ring groove. If worn away or round to point it have difficulty holding snap ring. I stop here and fail the FDS.
2nd outer axle splines. If worn away or so thin has pointed peak. Stop here and fail it.
3rd outer CV remarkable play
4th inner CV remarkable play

Splines nearly gone, sharp peaks where hub flange rides.

Hub flanges:
I look at splines too. Also has hammer damage, due to improper disassembly wrapping the cone washer holes and mating surface to snap ring and wheel hub.

Splines nearly gone, metal grinds in old grease.

 

[2001LC]

New OEM

 

[2001LC]

Here are some simple inspection, before any dissemble.

Excessive snap ring gap


Excessive spline wear.

Front drive shaft to Hub Flange play clunk 00 Land Cruiser w 169K

www.youtube.com

 

[2001LC]

New OEM front drive shaft and hub flange.

 

[Malleus]

It's amazing to me that these axles work at all with that much wear. The numbers say they should break and fail to transmit any torque. So much for physics.

 

[2001LC]

It's amazing to me that these axles work at all with that much wear. The numbers say they should break and fail to transmit any torque. So much for physics.

If your talking about the ones I posted pictures of. Some did fail, others would have very soon.

I've work and 3 in a row that were unrelievedly bad. Each case, was from improper wheel bearing service. In one case no "record" of wheel bearing service in 280K miles. But brake rotor replace at and INDY shop, where wheel hub must have come been pulled. It also had replacement OEM FDS, now shot!

Like the one axle where snap ring groove gone. It could not move unless CDL on, at times axle pulled in away from hub flange. INDY shop did not lock the locking nut and Lock nut fell off.

I'm pointing to lock nut that fell off and axle groove gone. I did the most restoration work on these wheel hubs and knuckles, than any single one before it. Was to be 3 day job, took a 10. Wheel hubs, all bearing, axle bearings & brass bushing (one missing) FDS. Even the wheel were stuck on 3 out 4 hub. Rear brake slid pin completely frozen. The list was long and rust completed everything. A total mess and very unsafe to drive.

Hub wobble very close to breaker rotor away from wheel hub.
Wobble cased rotor damage.

 

[Malleus]

Unbelievable

 

[2020 Rocks]

If your talking about the ones I posted pictures of. Some did fail, others would have very soon.

I've work and 3 in a row that were unrelievedly bad. Each case, was from improper wheel bearing service. In one case no "record" of wheel bearing service in 280K miles. But brake rotor replace at and INDY shop, where wheel hub must have come been pulled. It also had replacement OEM FDS, now shot!

Like the one axle where snap ring groove gone. It could not move unless CDL on, at times axle pulled in away from hub flange. INDY shop did not lock the locking nut and Lock nut fell off.

I'm pointing to lock nut that fell off and axle groove gone. I did the most restoration work on these wheel hubs and knuckles, than any single one before it. Was to be 3 day job, took a 10. Wheel hubs, all bearing, axle bearings & brass bushing (one missing) FDS. Even the wheel were stuck on 3 out 4 hub. Rear brake slid pin completely frozen. The list was long and rust completed everything. A total mess and very unsafe to drive.
View attachment 2965002
Hub wobble very close to breaker rotor away from wheel hub.
Wobble cased rotor damage.
View attachment 2965005


View attachment 2965006

Your sig line should say something like "definitive 100 series guru"

 

[GVegasG]

Using a white mark on the axle is great way to see the movement. I can clearly see the difference in videos posted by @2001LC after changing flange and drive shaft. I have feeling just changing flange did not do the trick for me but I will confirm using a marker.
@2001LC should one change the whole cv axle or just outer part? Mine has 185k.

 

[2001LC]

Inspecting axle splines (teeth) & those of hub flange. Will reveal if both axle & hub flange need replacing. This test (white mark) does not give any indication of health the CV's of front drive shaft (AKA FDS or CV) assembly. Where as it is possible to replace just the outer half shaft (outer axle, CV, boot and center axle). We typically replace the whole FDS.

Inspecting FDS:
Clicking, most notable in turns.
Condition of splines. Worn and how much, is greatly dependent on proper wheel bearing service and snap ring gap kept in spec.
Boots condition. If leaking grease how much for how long. Was leak from loose clamp or a hole in boot. Likelihood of water entry into CV.
Remarkable play in CV' of FDS assembly.

The FSM states "remarkable play". Which simply means, is there any that can be noted. New FDS CV's have zero play to remark on. Some with miles is to be inspected.

FDS

FDS Half shaft, comes with inner boot kit.