Front Axle Hub Flange backlash?

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2001LC

2001LC

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I've been looking for what is and acceptable (within spec limit) backlash (rotational play) of front axle splines to axle hub flange splines.

Anyone know what's acceptable?
 
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I can't find^^. I've searched FSM also.

I know a new hub flange to front drive shaft combo is tight, at least according to Julian's recent install post. But surly we have some tolerance to allow for wear. A safe minimum that insures reliability.
 
If I didn't have other issues relating to cv axles I wouldn't of pulled the trigger so fast on the repair, as I had inner joint issues and it turns out one of the outer cv's was notchy, it made the wheel feel oval at times when doing tight turns. Why don't you buy a hub flange so you can establish where the movement is, if it's just the hub flange it's worth changing to protect the cv's. If it's not and needs a cv then you can weigh up what your going to do. I'm sure you could just monitor the situation as I bet there are a lot of LC's driving around with some movement that they are unaware of. I would say that no movement would be what is preferred due to any movement in this attachment would accelerate wear.
 
I'll be replacing this axle hub flange from DS. The PS side teeth (post #11) look much better, but still I'm looking for what is acceptable back lash?????

DS flange
DS Axle hub flange teeth worn on back side large.webp

DS axle
1 DS axle spline.webp
 
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Lack of spec in FSM indicate you're correct @Sandroad. I'd think the FSM would make reference ot flange inspection somewhere?
Anyone seen anything on this?
 
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How many here have ever checked the axle flange hub for play or replaced before a failure event?

I'd guess most 100 on the road today have some play (back lash). This would mean any rotational play, and the flange hub and possible the axle would need replacing. I'm not saying your wrong ("That's not a place movement could be tolerated"), it's just not often that anyone is replacing hub flange to my knowledge.

Here's why I say it's not replaced often. My local Toyota Dealer (one of the largest in Denver) parts guy, who I've been working with for ~20 years, 12 years on my 100 LC. Said they don't stock neither does Toyota (USA), nor does he see them ordered. So shipping time is longer than usual, three times as long. They do stock; grease cap, standard snap ring, cone washer & nuts, gasket & seal and bearing & races. This indicates nobody is changing axle hub flange, until failure which I know we've seen in mud. How many here have ever changed axle hub flange unless it failed, or see play in more than just flange, like @Julian Stead just did. He saw lateral play on back side going into differentials IIRC.

This is why I say most 100's on the road have flange play. Most shop are setting preload old school, which is too loose. This sets up a condition known as chatter in the wheel bearings, which is evidenced by scoring of claw washer, back of spindle and snap ring. This creates excessive vibration which will damage teeth of flange and even the harder axle teeth of spline in time.

Additionally; most shop are not even going to see what the condition of axle hub flange, axle spline or for that matter bearings & race's are in. I say this because most shops' do not even clean old grease from wheel bearings & hubs. This cuts time to complete a repacking in half or more. They justify this by claiming re-calcification (filling in minor pitting) is accomplish by leaving old grease in place. The wheel bearing job I'm do now indicates this was the case over many repacks by multiple shops. I've evidence; one knuckle was replace with a used one, and it also has factory grease left in it. This one has No sign of front end damage, so I suspect the PO burned up the spindle of the knuckle, most likely caused by improper servicing of wheel bearings.

Personal I believe in cleaning like it's an operating room, for many reasons. Clean, Inspect and R&R is what I spend 90% of time on.

I'll pull my LC's grease caps and check play, along with the current job I'm working on with old & new flange. Unfortunately I don't have a back lash gauge, so readings will be subjective.
 
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Your flange definitely has some wear. Seems like 1/3 of the spline is gone. How does the splines on the axles look?
 
This is the axle splines of the PS, which flange looks a bit better than the DS. I'll post the matching (to above flange) when I get DS axle cleaned up.

I see good sharp 90% for the groove that holds snap ring. The teeth of the spline are symmetrical angle top to bottom on both sides. The teeth in front of the gap look thicker than the back side of teeth which fits/holds the flange. But they don't look worn/notched like the flange.

I need a picture of new to compare.

What do you think?
1 PS Axle spline.webp
2 PS Axle spline.webp

01 Zoom PS Axle hub flange.webp
 
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Axle splines dont looks too bad.

Is this the DS hub flange wear your referring to? Could post up a pic of the PS in comparison?
DS Axle hub flange teeth worn on back side large.webp
 
Interesting that the wear is so pronounced on the DS, and virtually none on the PS. Why? Random thought comes to mind where the drive line force is directed to the front axles under normal driving conditions. With pavement driving is power routed to DS the majority of the time until Atrac senses wheel slip?
 
I would say those splines are worn on the cv's, my thought on this is if the bigger splines at the front fit though the hub flang then there surely will be movement on the narrower splines as the big splines fit through the same groove, unless they are set at different heights.
 
abuck99 said:
Interesting that the wear is so pronounced on the DS, and virtually none on the PS. Why? Random thought comes to mind where the drive line force is directed to the front axles under normal driving conditions. With pavement driving is power routed to DS the majority of the time until Atrac senses wheel slip?
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I was not aware of one side getting more or less drive power. I did think we have a front to rear 60/40 split, but other in tire and wheel are still of mixed views on this issue.

There is evidence DS knuckle was replaced with a used one. I suspect this was do to improper maintenance, which possible damaged spindle. Additionally, looks as if some new grease was added (brown) without cleaning old. Contaminants possible got in grease (grit), as outer bearing is looking a little rougher then all others (both sides). The claw washers scoring indicated both sets of bearings were run loose, as did other signs.

Additional there is tooling marks (hammer) on axle hub & axle hub flange where they meet. This is all to common and can effect seal and alignment of flange. This happens as many don't follow FSM procedure for removing cone washer. Which clearly states use brass dowel to hit ends of the six studs. They hit side of flange with steel hammer, very bad idea. All these little things add up to increase vibration.

If DS is more prone to failure I can't say. Although I've document more scoring on my LC DS years ago. But this was due to lock washer not being secured by PO' (Dealer).
Julian Stead said:
I would say those splines are worn on the cv's, my thought on this is if the bigger splines at the front fit though the hub flang then there surely will be movement on the narrower splines as the big splines fit through the same groove, unless they are set at different heights.
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I agree Julian.

But it is worn symmetrically, whereas flange is not.

I'll try and get some good picture when I get new flange(s) on dry axle. This will give a better picture of just how much wear there really is. Going by your post that they fit tight in your recent replacement of both, then any movement will be axle wear, as you suggested.
 
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I add this picture of the DS axle spline to post #5 also, for side by side comparison.

1 DS axle spline.webp
 
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My boots & cv joints feel tight, but the axle teeth look a little worn as you can see. I now know these are not original axle's, but are after market.

If I find that new flanges still have backlash on these axles, I'll consider swapping DS axle with PS to change wear sides of teeth and tighten.

Would this be a good idea?
Or
Has axle teeth worn to seat, so switching would start wearing of new flanges all over again to seat?
 
I'm learning from your efforts, so I appreciate you posting this thread.

What did you notice or how did you figure out they were aftermarket axles? I doubt the broach that cuts the aftermarket splines is a perfect copy of the oem. And if the aftermarket axle splines arent cut exactly as wide and deep as the oem axle splines, I could see how the wear would develop the way it did.

I wouldn't swap sides, I'd bite the bullet start fresh with oem either get new ones, or re built ones. I think there's a business in Denver (CVJ) that offers rebuilt oem cv's complete. Convenient for you.
 
abuck99 said:
I'm learning from your efforts, so I appreciate you posting this thread.

What did you notice or how did you figure out they were aftermarket axles? I doubt the broach that cuts the aftermarket splines is a perfect copy of the oem. And if the aftermarket axle splines arent cut exactly as wide and deep as the oem axle splines, I could see how the wear would develop the way it did.

I wouldn't swap sides, I'd bite the bullet start fresh with oem either get new ones, or re built ones. I think there's a business in Denver (CVJ) that offers rebuilt oem cv's complete. Convenient for you.
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I notice rust on tulips which didn't correlate (rust) to rest of vehicle. In my de-rusting efforts I found InterPart-HX with a set of numbers ending in M (M is for modified) stamped on tulips. I called Interpart looking for outboard tulips (axle and or dust cover) they said don't have for sale, and said they oil but do not paint axle tulips. They then referred me to CVJ. I spoke with CVJ and they only do OEM rebuilds, do not sell parts, look for good dust shield on core and will not take aftermarket axle as core.

My axle assembles looks very good, so I'll not be replacing. I'll just see if axle fit tight to new flanges, which will surely be at least tighter than old flange. IMHO the poor maintenance habits of PO is why the flange are so worn (vibration). But it could be cut of axle, only trying again will tell I suppose.

Shawn at CVJ said; switching axle to tighten will work. Said I'd not even need new diff snap rings if mine look good. He deals with axle for a living, but is not a 100's nut and over maintainer like I....LOL
 
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