Excessive fuel tank pressure

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I've driven in excessive heat at or around sea level for 16 years w/o issue. I've had her up at altitude, but typically during the winter skiing. The only time this occured with me was at altitude on a hot day.

Headed to Tahoe in September, with a brand new gas cap thanks to our wonderful State of Kalifornia smog check. It'll be interesting to see if this 'issue' we're discussing happens up there. After 16 years they failed my gas cap last month! Pressure leak down test on the fuel system passed just fine tho. For non-Kalifornians, one of the smog checks is to pressurize the fuel tank with nitrogen and monitor the pressure release. If it loses too much pressure in the aloted test time, you have an excessive leak somewhere in the fuel system and have to have it repaired. Idea is fewer fuel vapors in the air. TreerootCO - those silly vapor sleaves at gas stations have been on pumps here where I've lived in Kalifornia for decades (or at least the 28 years I've lived here thanks to AQMD (Air Quality Management District).
 
For non-Kalifornians, one of the smog checks is to pressurize the fuel tank with nitrogen and monitor the pressure release. If it loses too much pressure in the aloted test time, you have an excessive leak somewhere in the fuel system and have to have it repaired.

That test is employed in many States not just California.
 
I have not found a solution. I have narrowed it down to hot fuel being the issue for sure.
I've put 18 gallons (of cool fuel from the underground tank) in at the last gas station before climbing the mountain, then went up the mountain (gaining 6000' in less than an hour) and had no issue.
While I was up there I walked around other vehicles that were parked. There was gas smell coming from many different makes and models, including a newer model Dodge truck.
Definitely a temperature/altitude gain issue. Which, again, is the only time I have this problem.

My next step will be to insulate my fuel lines and exhaust. I've been looking at the fuel return line from the regulator also. It has been speculated that if it was bad it could be heating the gas as well. Next time I call Dan I may just get a new one and see what happens.

Edit: Tucson is above 2000' to start with, if that matters to anyone.

I think you are right. I just read through this thread. If I had to put my money on it, I would say the issue en masse is gas formulation applied to the problem condition in your climate.

As far as elevation gains go for a wheeling community, you would expect Colorado to the an epicenter of this issue, and it is not. Yes, there are some aux tank/SC reports showing up and a few others, but this also counterbalanced by the "I had a problem gaining altitude from AZ to CO, but was fine at altitude on the first tank bought in CO."

In Colorado low grade gas is 85 octane, although we have the pleasure of paying for 87 octane to get it. I think something around 4,500 ft. elevation you see the lower octane fuels, premium being 91 here. In this difference, I would assume there is a formulation consideration for high altitude driving over long distances.

In other words, our fuel should be formulated for high altitude, and while there are occasional reports here we aren't setting up any fuel system diagnosis parties. Fuel in AZ, perhaps even when sold in Flagstaff, is not going to be formulated for high altitude, and so you may be getting a combination that is not being designed for: high heat at high elevation for a fuel mixture not designed for those conditions.

Given much of the issue on this thread is being born out by people who live at relatively low elevation in hot or desert climates and then head to high elevation on a tank of fuel designed for the original condition, that may be the culprit. In contrast, if I drive to high elevation and wheel on a tank of fuel I bought at lower elevation, that original fuel in the original location is hypothetically already designed for high altitude use and that may mitigate some of the altitude gain here, although it is relatively cooler here at each step of the trip on most days.

I wonder if there isn't some other information out there on this issue and if it is related to fuel content?
 
My 80 had the same problem.

The highest point in the Sunshine is only 345 ft above sea level, and it occurs with as little of a 1/4 tank.

I pulled a lil plunger out of my gas cap and the problem has disappered. (pic to follow)

No, it has not tripped the check engine light and it doesn't smell like gas....
 
Given much of the issue on this thread is being born out by people who live at relatively low elevation in hot or desert climates and then head to high elevation on a tank of fuel designed for the original condition, that may be the culprit. In contrast, if I drive to high elevation and wheel on a tank of fuel I bought at lower elevation, that original fuel in the original location is hypothetically already designed for high altitude use and that may mitigate some of the altitude gain here, although it is relatively cooler here at each step of the trip on most days.

I wonder if there isn't some other information out there on this issue and if it is related to fuel content?

I have two problems with this.

First, if this were truly due to elevation and/or gas formulated for a particular elevation, then why would people at a low elevation (1k-3k) experience it? Even to the point where gasoline is spraying from the side of their rig when they crack open the gas cap? In my (and TOY350's) case, I was at an elevation that the gasoline was formulated for, and still had it.

Secondly, speculating about "formulations" in gas is actually a rather moot point as gas is gas no matter where you go. There might be some local differences here and there (some states have stricter requirements than others), but by and large it's the same stuff. Case in point an article from a blog I follow:

Are Cellphone Carriers Like Gas Stations? | Techdirt

It's a simple lesson from Kindergarten: Share. You probably don't think of oil companies as being particularly good at this - except perhaps in the sense of sharing oil price hikes at the pumps - but it turns out they have another hidden sharing skill that they'd rather you didn't see. They share gas and pipelines, run by pipleline firms called "common carriers". Although not widely known, there is very little difference between the gas you buy at competing fuel stations in the US. The gas is a commodity product based on quality specs, and the differences are mostly marketing.

The privately-owned national gas/oil distribution infrastructure is quite formidable (offering a massive legacy advantage over any future fuels). There are pipelines that cross the country, refineries, trucks, equipment, tanks, catchments, reserves - all to deliver fuel to a growing economy (yes, growing...over the long-term at least).

But it would be prohibitively expensive to build such an infrastructure for EACH of the gas station brands. So instead of separate pipelines snaking the country, one each for Chevron, Shell, Texaco, Philips, etc...they share. Tanker ships deliver a standard grade of oil to refineries where it is refined to standard grades of fuel. And while the refineries may be owned by a specific oil company, the fuel they produce is put in common pipes to transport across the nation. Thus, the premium gas that Shell puts in the pipe in California could be taken out by Texaco in Nevada. Since it is a commodity product, it doesn't matter whose batch of fuel is taken out of the pipe, it only matters how much. This pipe is quite "dumb", but the network is shared, and the commodity that is transported is a standard package - sound familiar to any telco people?

The Fair Trade Commission in the US has stopped gas companies from making false advertising claims, and if the companies are selling the same gas, they can't claim it to be better. Thus claims like "More powerful" get replaced with the metaphorical, nonsensical "Put a tiger in your tank!" Is shared infrastructure and a standards-based product killing the gas companies? No. How do they compete if the product they sell is EXACTLY the same as their competition? What's the value of brand?

The answer lies in a small trick. The FTC won't allow them to say their gas is better if it's the same. But if they inject some small amount of "additive" just before selling the gas to customers (This additive can be anything...even a secret formula of 11 herbs and spices) that's all it takes to claim a different product. And with a different product, the gas companies can claim to have a "cleaner running" product, or "burns better" or whatever angle they want to promote with their brand. It works.


So long story short....it's either going to be the same or very similar stuff, no matter where you go.


Did some more digging around the boiling point of gas (since that's one common thing folks have noticed), and there are some interesting tidbits there. Including that gasoline can boil as low as 102* F, and the major components of gasoline tend to have a lower boiling point. :eek:

The First Responder: Technically Speaking

Boiling Point of Gasoline

Gasoline as used by vehicles is a mixture of roughly 230 different chemicals. Gasoline formulations vary depending upon the location, time of the year, environmental regulations, and availability. If the PEAC user looks up the boiling point of gasoline on the PEAC tool, the temperature 102o F (or 39o C) is displayed. But the information is misleading. Gasoline boils over a range of temperatures, with the most volatile components starting to boil away at roughly 102oF. The less-volatile components will boil at higher temperatures. Gasoline boils over range of temperatures, between 39 and 200o C (102oF and 392o F) typically, the temperature range varies depending upon the formulation. The final boiling point of the last residual of gasoline might be typically 225oC (437oF). This is in contrast to a pure chemical such as heptanes (one of the components of gasoline) which boils at a single temperature (209o F; 98oC).

Petroleum refining begins with the distillation of crude oil into fractions of different boiling ranges, usually called “light naphtha”, “heavy naphtha”, “kerosene”, “light gas oil”, “heavy gas oil”, and “reduced crude”. The naphtha fractions obtained by distillation are also called “virgin naphtha” or “straightrun gasoline”. The hydrocarbon products obtained by distillation depend greatly upon the type of crude oil being distilled. Kerosene and light gas oil fractions (also called middle distillates) are used in the production of kerosene, jet fuel, diesel fuel, and furnace oils. The heavy gas oil may be used for heavy diesel fuel, industrial fuel oil, and bunker fuel. All of these are mixtures of various hydrocarbon compounds with a range of boiling points. If the PEAC user looks up the boiling point for fuel oil, jet fuel, naphtha, or other petroleum distillate, a single temperature is displayed representing a temperature at the lower end of the boiling point range.

The lower boiling point hydrocarbon distillates are more valuable because they are major components of gasoline. A major petroleum refining step is hydrocracking, where higher boiling hydrocarbons are broken down or cracked forming lower boiling point hydrocarbons. The higher boiling point hydrocarbons are subjected to hydrogen and heat in the presence of a catalyst which results in the formation of lower molecular weight, lower boiling point hydrocarbons. The catalyst, which becomes fouled with carbon, is regenerated.

A typical breakdown of modern gasoline (excluding additives and oxygenated compounds) might be 15% n-paraffins (examples: pentane, hexane, heptane, octane, decane, etc.); 30% iso-paraffins (examples: 1-methylpropane, 2-methylbutane, 2,2,3-trimethylbutane, etc.); 12% cycloparaffins (example: cyclohexane, cyclopentane, etc.); 35% aromatics (examples: benzene, toluene, ethyl benzene, 1,3,5-trimethylbenzene; m-xylene, etc.); and 8% olefins (examples: 2-pentene, 2-methylbutene, cyclopentene, etc.). The octane number of the gasoline is a function of the components.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has specified that gasoline contain a minimum of 2% oxygen by weight to reduce automotive emissions and improve air quality in polluted areas. This can be done by adding alcohols, notably ethanol, to gasoline to supply the oxygen component. Until recently, refiners have added methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) to gasoline to supply the oxygen component; a gasoline composition of 12% MTBE would meet the 2% oxygen by weight requirement. But MTBE proved to be a dangerous pollutant itself, contaminating groundwater from leaking gasoline tanks at fuel stations.

Modern refiners add detergents (usually an amide compound and alkylammonium dialkyl phosphate to prevent the formation of contaminants in the carburetor or fuel injectors. Light lubricants may be added to help lubricate cylinders and top piston rings. Deicing and anticorrosion additives are also in modern gasolines. Organic dyes are also added to identify brands and grades of gasoline.

In summary, gasoline is a mixture of many different chemicals. Many of the components of modern gasoline are also individually listed in the PEAC tool. The mixture boils over a temperature range rather than at a single temperature.


Considering that the bottom range of gasoline can boil as low as 100* F, and our engine bay temps are easily 150* F or higher, I can easily see that being the primary problem. Elevation changes could play a part (water boils at a lower temp at higher elevations, after all) but more likely it's the extra work the engine does pulling the vehicle up hill causing more heat in the engine bay.
 
That last post reinforces my desire to install hood louver vents.
 
pic

see post #165
DSC03467.webp
 
Very glad this thread came to light - Right when I just bought a new CC. My pregnant wife was about to pass out yesterday when it was 108 and we were driving around, the smell was so bad. So, if my daughter is born retarded, I get to blame it on the gas fumes. So, I get to test several other things. Will try air through the return line to the tank with cap off tonight, followed by carb / intake cleaner to clear the line if needed.

FWIW, I recently (prior to the big summer heat-up) had my upper plenum off and replaced all of the vacuum lines for the ERG and Fuel system, so that is not a culprit. This includes both lines (which were dried and cracked) going in and out of the Charcoal canister. Charcoal canister failed first FSM test last night whilst installing new one - it was clogged.

Will the EVAP system throw a code if it is failing? Have not seen mention of it in this thread.
 
Very glad this thread came to light - Right when I just bought a new CC. My pregnant wife was about to pass out yesterday when it was 108 and we were driving around, the smell was so bad. So, if my daughter is born retarded, I get to blame it on the gas fumes. So, I get to test several other things. Will try air through the return line to the tank with cap off tonight, followed by carb / intake cleaner to clear the line if needed.

FWIW, I recently (prior to the big summer heat-up) had my upper plenum off and replaced all of the vacuum lines for the ERG and Fuel system, so that is not a culprit. This includes both lines (which were dried and cracked) going in and out of the Charcoal canister. Charcoal canister failed first FSM test last night whilst installing new one - it was clogged.

Will the EVAP system throw a code if it is failing? Have not seen mention of it in this thread.

Look for a different thread started by Romer with a similar topic discussion. A few of us have done the FSM CC test, but kind of hard to get PSI down as low as required in the FSM test. Even coming close, I recall that a couple of us, me included, 'think' ours failed one of the tests.

Edit: Here's the thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-...h-more-gas-then-i-use-rich-exhaust-smell.html

So you've replaced your CC with new? Very interested in your findings.
 
As far as elevation gains go for a wheeling community, you would expect Colorado to the an epicenter of this issue, and it is not. Yes, there are some aux tank/SC reports showing up and a few others, but this also counterbalanced by the "I had a problem gaining altitude from AZ to CO, but was fine at altitude on the first tank bought in CO."

Nay, I think many folks are having this problem and aren't even aware of it. BTW treeroot chimed in and IIRC his has no forced induction or aux tank.
 
Look for a different thread started by Romer with a similar topic discussion. A few of us have done the FSM CC test, but kind of hard to get PSI down as low as required in the FSM test. Even coming close, I recall that a couple of us, me included, 'think' ours failed one of the tests.

So you've replaced your CC with new? Very interested in your findings.

My methodology for test the CC at low pressure was this: hook up a spare piece of hose to the CC, and simply blow into it by mouth. Low pressure, will not damage anything. I was not getting air passage out of the other two ports. Fail. Will get the pig out on the road today and get her hot. Will post findings on whether or not it is better.

I think that this is not necessarily an altitude related thing primarily, I think it is a heat thing. At the same altitude around town, it happens when the truck is very hot. This would be consistent with making a truck labor at highway speeds climbing a hill from 2000 to 8000 feet. Truck gets hot, mayhem ensues. Heat is the enemy. Proper engine cooling is GOOD. Fuel boiling or altitude effects I think are either secondary causation or a symptom / result of the very hot engine. Thoughts?

I just swapped my fan clutch last night as well with a blue holding 10K fluid. Hoping the combination cures me.
 
What's the "acceptable" amount of pressure in the tank?

Whenever I remove my cap, it hisses for two or three seconds and has done so for all 100K miles I've put on the truck. Never had a vehicle do that before, figured it must be an FZJ-80 thing.
 
My methodology for test the CC at low pressure was this: hook up a spare piece of hose to the CC, and simply blow into it by mouth. Low pressure, will not damage anything. I was not getting air passage out of the other two ports. Fail. Will get the pig out on the road today and get her hot. Will post findings on whether or not it is better.

I think that this is not necessarily an altitude related thing primarily, I think it is a heat thing. At the same altitude around town, it happens when the truck is very hot. This would be consistent with making a truck labor at highway speeds climbing a hill from 2000 to 8000 feet. Truck gets hot, mayhem ensues. Heat is the enemy. Proper engine cooling is GOOD. Fuel boiling or altitude effects I think are either secondary causation or a symptom / result of the very hot engine. Thoughts?

I just swapped my fan clutch last night as well with a blue holding 10K fluid. Hoping the combination cures me.


I have a new CC and 15k fluid in my fan clutch. Did not help the problem.

I get the gas smell very rarely around town in the summer, but if I do any elevation gains, I get it for sure. SO I agree it's a heat thing, but elevation makes it worse for sure.
 
What's the "acceptable" amount of pressure in the tank?

Whenever I remove my cap, it hisses for two or three seconds and has done so for all 100K miles I've put on the truck. Never had a vehicle do that before, figured it must be an FZJ-80 thing.


I started this thread because I thought I was over pressurized, but I realized later that the gas cap itself can only hold 4psi IIRC. So it's not an issue of pressure, but an issue of boiling fuel.
 
Gasoline boils as low as 102* (see above). Your engine compartment can easily break 170*. Lets say that your gas tank is pressurized to the maximum amount of 4 PSI. That very well may keep the gasoline in a pure liquid state (the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point).

Even worse, you're sitting at 7k-10k feet which means that the air pressure is significantly lower, which further reduces the boiling point.

When you open the gas cap, you remove the pressure in the tank.

Air pressure at sea level is about 15 PSI, air level in Denver is about 12 PSI. So that extra 4 PSI you had in the gas tank is like suddenly climbing over a mile straight up. Viola, boiling gasoline.


It'd be interesting to see if the gasoline was boiling before you opened the gas cap. Dollars to doughnuts it wasn't.


But while the elevation makes the situation worse, it's the heat that's the true problem. If the gas gets hot enough, it'll start vaporizing the more volatile elements which will increase pressure, and continue to vaporize until the temperature drops or the remaining chemicals left all have a higher boiling point.

My guess is that the pressure build up is enough that the higher pressure stops the gas from vaporizing any further. When you open the cap, you remove that pressure which causes the gas to start boiling, releasing even more pressure. That's why a mostly full tank can take several minutes to stop pushing out vapor, because gas keeps converting to vapor. At only 4 PSI and a mostly full tank, there's clearly not enough pressure for it to vent for 5+ minutes...except if it's boiling.

But the true cause is the heat. If you keep the gas cool, then the most volatile elements might boil off and you might get a minute or so of venting, but not the extreme venting/pressure/boiling that higher temps (or lower temps with higher elevation) would give.

Insulating the fuel lines and charcoal canister would be a step. A fuel cooler might help. If you can keep the temps down, then the elevation becomes a non-issue (or much less of one).
 
At 11,500 elevation, mine was boiling and blowing vapors out the cap as I loosened it. I only cracked the cap about a 1/4 turn to let the pressure subside (pressure never seemed to completely stop). After about 3 minutes, I slowly removed it. You could still hear the gurgling going on in the tank. I looked at my fuel system tonight (92)and decided it's virtually impossible to insulate the fuel rail which is directly above the exhaust manifold. I have ordered 20K cst oil for my 1 year old blue fan clutch to modify. That might be overkill, but for about 15 bucks that should help in keeping the engine bay much cooler.
 
As far as elevation gains go for a wheeling community, you would expect Colorado to the an epicenter of this issue, and it is not. Yes, there are some aux tank/SC reports showing up and a few others, but this also counterbalanced by the "I had a problem gaining altitude from AZ to CO, but was fine at altitude on the first tank bought in CO."

Nay, don't understand how you come up with this statement. You must not be having the issue, but Treeroot, Nick and I are and we live in Colorado, Nick at a higher altitude then us city dwellers. I also have it happen in the city when I fill up in the city. I think the cause was a saturated Charcoal Canister. It does seem to be worse when wheeling at altitude, but still happened to me in the city.

Seems to be better since IO replaced my CC with a used one. This one likely had $150K miles on it as well so I am interested in the results of a new canister
 
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