Dumb Oil pump question

[tdannycollins]

Howdy!

100 series in question: 2000 with ~323k miles

Long story short, replaced my TB and water pump summer of 23, while in there thought about replacing the oil pump but it was bone dry. WP Gasket didn’t seat properly, but it was headed to a shop for the dreaded ABS unit, so I had them re-seat the water pump while they had it and were already bending me over the tool cart.

Fast forward to today, the dry oil pump is now letting enough oil out that it’s cleaned the pan directly below the hole in the timing cover. When I hopped under the car I noticed the 3rd party shop must’ve not noticed the bottom bolt holding the timing cover on (twice), breaking the cover over it, and then again not replacing it once the job was done.

My dumb question: is there any chance that bolt goes through the pump and secures the pump to the block, and thus replacing it will miraculously cure my oil leak for $7 rather than $3,000?

Thanks in advance

 

[tdannycollins]

Other maintenance worth noting regarding oil drip down:
Valve cover gaskets replaced
Oil filter housing gaskets replaced
Will to live

 

[Rhetoric]

Did you seal the threads of the “pivot bolt” for the idler pulley in the timing system? That will cause a leak as it’s a through hole.

 

[OEMGUY0720]

Here’s a 2000 I recently worked on for reference took a snap after getting it all cleaned and TB / WP buttoned up. I think the best and only way to resolve the leak is by replacing the oil pump.

 

[2001LC]

Howdy!

Howdy!

Looks like, oil pump O-ring. Why, because appear a very bad leak. Which when these O-rings go, leak may be very bad. I see yours, just below timing cover. Look is of, oil washed/running out. That is not a weep, that happens with bad leaks. You'd see loss/low on dipstick.

Can I ask:
Has HIGH MILEAGE oil ever been used and for how many miles and changes?
Does it have a good oil & filter service history and with what oil & filter?
Is oil level no higher than high mark on dipstick (15 minutes after engine had reached operating temp, engine off and on level ground)?
Any signs, engine has overheated?

I'd remove PS upper T-cover (BK2 cam cover). Run my borescope down and exame oil pump O-ring area (circled in yellow). If wet with oil and oil running down from O-ring, o-ing is shot.

But you could have other leaks, that appearing to be oil pump O-ring. Most depending, on what services and how done. Properly done, will not leak. Improperly done, will leak.

So where is oil from. You make the story short, leaves me guessing:
Crankshaft seal, was it R&R (removed and replaced) by anyone?
Tension 10mm hex bolt threads, were threads sealed?
Any leaks from above oil pump. Like cam seals (factory's don't leak) and head cover?
If all good. likely oil pump O-ring leak.

No borescope. You could:
I'd take picture of area above, looking for oil leak. i.e Block area below upper T-belt covers (cam seals) and head covers.
I'd then clean front of engine of all oil. Then watch very close, for first place oil appears from.

100 series in question: 2000 with ~323k miles

Long story short, replaced my TB and water pump summer of 23,

while in there thought about replacing the oil pump but it was bone dry.

I assume you mean oil pump "SEAL" AKA crank seal.

If crank seal, not touched and wasn't leaking then. It's not likely leaking now. It's, when cranks seal has been replaced, that I find leaking. Due to poor removal & replacement (R&R). In fact, I've never seen, a factory crank seal leak. Not even on 20 year old 400k miles.

WP Gasket didn’t seat properly, but it was headed to a shop for the dreaded ABS unit, so I had them re-seat the water pump while they had it and were already bending me over the tool cart.

What, re-seat! HUH?

I'll take you mean:
Coolant leak after TB WP service done, by you. If you, properly cleaned the block. Place WP gasket on block, and lubricated (dish soap/water) small new O-ring as placed on crossover pipe. Then place on the WP. Then torqued bolts to spec. If yes. Then more likely a water inlet hose leak or leak at water inlet FIPG 1282B seal or large O-ring to WP.

Anyway. If shop did go back in TB WP area, and replace WP gasket. They'd, have no reason to touch the crank cam seals, or TB idler pulley 10mm hex head bolt.

The FSM clearly states to seal the threads of this bolt of tensioner bolt:

Yellow circle, threads need sealant. We also get a leak here, if not. But if bolt pf pulley properly torque. Is a weep, not a running leak.

The capture threads go through oil pump, open to crankcase oil splash.

Fast forward to today, the dry oil pump is now letting enough oil out that it’s cleaned the pan directly below the hole in the timing cover. When I hopped under the car I noticed the 3rd party shop must’ve not noticed the bottom bolt holding the timing cover on (twice), breaking the cover over it, and then again not replacing it once the job was done.

My dumb question: is there any chance that bolt goes through the pump and secures the pump to the block, and thus replacing it will miraculously cure my oil leak for $7 rather than $3,000?

That capture hole in oil pump, for plastic lower T-belt cover. Is not your leak. The plastic of lower timing cover, is busted and gone. But has no real effect.

Thanks in advance

View attachment 3838796

View attachment 3838797

 

[tdannycollins]

Howdy!

Looks like, oil pump O-ring. Why, because appear a very bad leak. Which when these O-rings go, leak may be very bad. I see yours, just below timing cover. Look is of, oil washed/running out. That is not a weep, that happens with bad leaks. You'd see loss/low on dipstick.

View attachment 3839088

Can I ask:
Has HIGH MILEAGE oil ever been used and for how many miles and changes?
Does it have a good oil & filter service history and with what oil & filter?
Is oil level no higher than high mark on dipstick (15 minutes after engine had reached operating temp, engine off and on level ground)?
Any signs, engine has overheated?

I'd remove PS upper T-cover (BK2 cam cover). Run my borescope down and exame oil pump O-ring area (circled in yellow). If wet with oil and oil running down from O-ring, o-ing is shot.

View attachment 3839084

But you could have other leaks, that appearing to be oil pump O-ring. Most depending, on what services and how done. Properly done, will not leak. Improperly done, will leak.

So where is oil from. You make the story short, leaves me guessing:
Crankshaft seal, was it R&R (removed and replaced) by anyone?
Tension 10mm hex bolt threads, were threads sealed?
Any leaks from above oil pump. Like cam seals (factory's don't leak) and head cover?
If all good. likely oil pump O-ring leak.

No borescope. You could:
I'd take picture of area above, looking for oil leak. i.e Block area below upper T-belt covers (cam seals) and head covers.
I'd then clean front of engine of all oil. Then watch very close, for first place oil appears from.




I assume you mean oil pump "SEAL" AKA crank seal.

If crank seal, not touched and wasn't leaking then. It's not likely leaking now. It's, when cranks seal has been replaced, that I find leaking. Due to poor removal & replacement (R&R). In fact, I've never seen, a factory crank seal leak. Not even on 20 year old 400k miles.

What, re-seat! HUH?

I'll take you mean:
Coolant leak after TB WP service done, by you. If you, properly cleaned the block. Place WP gasket on block, and lubricated (dish soap/water) small new O-ring as placed on crossover pipe. Then place on the WP. Then torqued bolts to spec. If yes. Then more likely a water inlet hose leak or leak at water inlet FIPG 1282B seal or large O-ring to WP.

Anyway. If shop did go back in TB WP area, and replace WP gasket. They'd, have no reason to touch the crank cam seals, or TB idler pulley 10mm hex head bolt.

The FSM clearly states to seal the threads of this bolt of tensioner bolt:

Yellow circle, threads need sealant. We also get a leak here, if not. But if bolt pf pulley properly torque. Is a weep, not a running leak.
View attachment 3839021
The capture threads go through oil pump, open to crankcase oil splash.
View attachment 3839023
View attachment 3839020



That capture hole in oil pump, for plastic lower T-belt cover. Is not your leak. The plastic of lower timing cover, is busted and gone. But has no real effect.
View attachment 3839019

Thanks for the in depth follow up! I have a feeling you’re right on the money, it’s the oil pump O ring.
To answer a few questions, I’m not sure if the shop put sealant in the tensioner through bolt, but I had the timing cover off last week when replacing the drive belt tensioner and the timing belt didn’t have any oil on it. I imagine if the oil was coming from that it would get whipped all over the belt from the pulley.

I did recently do an oil change with full synthetic high mileage oil, I’ve read on the forum about it cleaning out sludge buildup leading to leaks, do we think that could be culprit here? Would it be worth while to switch back to Dino oil?

Thanks, I really appreciate the insights!

 

[2001LC]

Thanks for the in depth follow up! I have a feeling you’re right on the money, it’s the oil pump O ring.
To answer a few questions, I’m not sure if the shop put sealant in the tensioner through bolt,

" but I had the timing cover off last week" Did you get any pictures or did you look at oil on and around top of oil pump?

"when replacing the drive belt tensioner and the timing belt didn’t have any oil on it. I imagine if the oil was coming from that it would get whipped all over the belt from the pulley."

Nope! I've seen oil leaks from every point, from the front of engine which can leak. Not seen any get on T-belt.
Issue with these leaks are 3 fold:

• Damaging rubber bushings (rack, diff, LCA)
• Running low on oil.
• Unsightly and a crime in Japan.

Here's what I'd do, after making sure OP O-ring leaking:

Make sure both PCV hoses, in good condition. Meaning no vacuum leaks, no cracks and on sung. Also no vacuum leaks anywhere.
Make sure good working PCV valve.
Make sure a good (soft rubber) PCV grommet. It holds and seals, the PCV valve in head cover.
Flush engine oil with 2 cans of BG EPR P/N 109. Running EPR in engine's old oil for 30 minutes, getting up to 3K RPM for ~10 minutes. This cleans seals to prep for AT-205 reseal, to soak in better.
Replace oil with Mobil 1 5W-30 (regular stuff, not HM) and OEM filter. Do not overfill.
Add 10 oz of AT-205 to engine/oil.
Drive daily as you normally do. After more than a total (can be cumulative) of 5 hours run time. Wash off all oil and reset engine oil level. Watch leak and oil level closely.

I did recently do an oil change with full synthetic high mileage oil, I’ve read on the forum about it cleaning out sludge buildup leading to leaks, do we think that could be culprit here? Would it be worth while to switch back to Dino oil?

We've, an argument going in mud, with regard to HM oil.

Some say they use HM oil all the time. Some say they run it and switch to non high mileage. No issues whatsoever. Mobil 1 tech now say: You'll lose whatever benefit you had while using, but it will not damage seals if stop using.

Years ago. When I first heard, High Mileage oil damaged seals. ih8mud post said; it swells and damaged seals. Like putting engine on crack.
I called Mobil 1 tech(s) back then (today their story different). They said use for two oil changes, and must then use for life of engine.

I talked with ATP engineer, about ATP AT-205 reseal and high mileage oil back then. He/they said AT-205 is same plasticizer, they use to make seals. Just sold in, 8 oz bottle. It adds back what plasticizer, time leached out. To be uses, only once every 7 to 10 years. Can leave it in, until next oil change. He said; High mileage, is petroleum based seal modifier. It swells seals, an then seal shrink & dry when HM oil no longer present.

Thanks, I really appreciate the insights!

NP. Good luck.

BTW: Very often when front O-ring leaks, so does the rear O-ring.
It's oil is seen at rear weep hole in front o bell housing: