Dual battery Controller Choices, Decisions Decisions

[Romer]

Like stink on a monkey -B-

Whatever you do, don't buy that powergate-thingie. Christo really likes poorly engineered crap on his truck.....that's why he uses POWER-GATE. With customers like Ingersoll-Rand and the US Army....boy are they suckers paying up for a unit like that.....or do they know something that -B- doesn't?

If you're cost sensitive, solenoid is the best way to go. If you are looking for an isolator that generates no heat and doesn't waste power.....if you're looking for the best money can buy, consider that powergate thingie.....evething else is a compromise.

I never said it was a piece of crap.

I am sure it is designed and built for environments that the military would see.

However, If it's that extra robustness that makes it SOOOO much more expensive than the other set-ups, it's over engineered for our application.

Being an engineer myself, I know there is a balance between cost and technical. You want to design for what meets the requirements with reliability and nothing more.

So, If I can get the performance I need for half the price with a Hellroaring or sure power, why spend double for the powergate?

You said it yourself, "if your looking for the best money can buy." Ummm , no we are looking for the best value for our application that meets our requirements.

And no, this is not an opportunity for you to respond as to why your product is better. You have done way too much of that already

 

[desertdude]

and away we go

 

[cruiserdan]

If I stick 8 "D" cells in series I get 12 volts. I'm working on a parallell set-up with a bunch of 8 "D" cell packs. I haven't hit the magic number yet. Anybody know how many packs it should take to get enough amperage to crank the motor over?

 

[desertdude]

I am always relaxed when my campsite is right next to you

I also figure you have long jumper cables within reach

 

[Romer]

I am always relaxed when my campsite is right next to you

I also figure you have long jumper cables within reach

Did his wife try and take YOUR shoes Off, must not have if you felt relaxed. Just ask B-

BTW- I notice mobi doesn't own an 80, he is one of Erics' 100 series buddy's (figures).

BTW2- It's OK to answer questions about your products in tech, It's not OK to bring them up as solutions (repeatedly). He is free to PM the author of the thread to inform them of his proposed solution and if they want to add it to the mix, that's OK. Don't bother PMing me though.

For a mobi history lesson look here https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=84242

 

[desertdude]

I think Sarah knows better

-------------------------------------------------------

I thought Scott ( Mobi Arc) owned an 80 series - Scott?

I would install a Power Switch on my trucks if he gave me one for free for review - ( and I could do a fine review) I don't see them included on Slee's site yet...

Anyway - a manual switch is the best contact when you need all the power - a management system when you are too damn old to remember where the switch is at any given moment. and maybe too lazy to figure all the wiring.

Or just hang out with folks that have long jumper cables

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I was kind of excited about the Power-Gate until the exchanges in the outfitting section. I still have a wish to do a dual battery in my 60, and like DD will be happy to demo a free Power-Gate. I'll even write a review on this site. To my knowledge, Christo may use the device, but I've never seen him review it.

Since a free Power-Gate isn't realistic, and 100% of my experience with Hell Roaring has been positive, I'm going that route again when the spirit moves me. I'm glad you guys found my old write up useful.

Romer-there is one other way to proceed that the Venezuelan guys use, if you really want redundant. They mount a second Chevy alternator, powering a second battery and basically have a parallel electrical system that can run the whole truck. I've seen several of the installs, and it's clean and workable. Way too much trouble for me, but for work deep in the 3rd world, it might be OK.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm glad you guys found my old write up useful.

It was more than useful, it was the perfect roadmap for my install. I changed up a few things but nothing major. I wanted a location on the aux battery tray that would allow me to tap +12v from the primary battery, so I used the big Hellroaring fuse where you did but instead of the ground side, it fuses the +12v from the primary battery. I also copied ParadiseCruiser's idea and booty fabbed a horizontal mount for the HR and a small fuse panel.

-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

Ummm , no we are looking for the best value for our application that meets our requirements.

Ken, you stated it perfectly. In engineering, everything is a compromise with respect to price, performance, efficiency, size, etc....In the sub-150 amp Land Cruiser arena, you can compromise price and performance to achieve best value. It's the difference of going with a product with resistance measured in milliohms or micro-ohms. Okay with milliohms, it will cost less at the expense of performance. Acceptable? To each their own. Want micro-ohm arena at three times the current? Sorry. Costs more. Acceptable? To each their own. I used a $20 solenoid on my dual battery setup for 8 months in Africa. Cheap, easy, no complaints. I do acknowledge that a better solution with no moving parts, had it been available at the time, would have been something to consider. I was looking for something bulletproof and the technology wasn't there yet. I wish P-GATE were more moderately priced, but the package is state-of-the art and it's inherently expensive. I guess that's the price of progress. Do your homework. Compare your options. Decide what compromises your willing to accept and roll the dice.

PS) Sold my 80 and bought a 100 several years back. Ken, what type of engineer are you?

 

[elmariachi]

This whole dual battery setup has endless configuration possibilities and could drive one mad trying to determine what a good system should include. An ideal system would offer switching, isolation, redundancy, detailed metering and feedback and only cost $50. Unfortunately, my ADD and budget stopped long short of all that when I found the Painless kit a few years ago. I have had some awesome setups on my powerboats but I think that its a little bit of overkill to try and work all those functions into a truck. So my ongoing assumption is that both my batteries are good and my voltage needle works. If one of the batteries croaks, I'll figure that out easy enough via the needle. If the needle croaks...oh well, it gives me something to do chasing trouble. So my primary goal and the driving factor in picking the Painless system was restricted to in-cab switching.

In my install thread referred to by Romer above, you'll see what the three switch positions are intended to accomplish if installed per the directions. To ensure that my family would not run the battery down at the beach this summer when I wasn't around, I decided to swap the wiring around so that the yellow top could be switched into a dedicated/solo mode for driving the winch or powering the truck with the key in the ACC position. (Painless' wiring instructions only bring the aux battery into the circuit along with the other battery, not in just by itself.) My thinking was that if they ran the yellow down, they could just switch back to the red, start the truck and come home.

After riding around Texas today in a car and thinking about it, I am still not sure that's the best setup.

Regarding Romer's questions:

Painless:
Do you normally drive with switch in combine to charge both batteries, or do you isolate them to prevent something from draining both batteries while you are driving like a bad alternator?

I normally drive around in the middle position, ignoring the deep cycle aux battery. Eventually this will allow the battery to drain, so every two weeks I flip the switch for a few hours to bring it into the recharge circuit.

Is there another way to see you have a bad alt before the voltage stops to drop (see on gauge)?

No.

How long would a fully charged battery be OK if isolated from the charging circuit.

I have left the yellow top out of the circuit for as long as a month and it is fine. That's my only experience with timeframe.

 

[cruiserdan]

Ken, what type of engineer are you?

He builds spacecraft.

 

[mobi-arc]

He builds spacecraft.

Lots to a spacecraft.

Ken, what kind of engineer are you?

 

[Romer]

Lots to a spacecraft.

Ken, what kind of engineer are you?

I am a EE. I use to design computers for spacecraft, moved on the managing product areas in the production of spacecraft. Now, I have been promoted beyond the fun stuff and don't get to engineer anymore.

I am sure your product is a fine product, but it exceeds my requirements and budget.

BUT if you want to give me one to install and review for the forum, that's another matter.

 

[dfmorse]

Ken; here's a link to the way I set up the Hellroaring unit:

http://homepage.mac.com/dfmorse/BattProj2/index.html

U can e-mail me if u would like to discuss same.
Site hasn't been updated in a while. System installed about 4 years now; works quite well.
Or u can call me at 303 584 9174

...

 

[mobi-arc]

I am a EE.

Excellent. Then you know the difference between milliohms and micro-ohms of resistance and how that translates into heat. With respect to your offer, thank you, but unfortunately I don't think a Ken Romer freebee would yield the requisite marketing mileage, nor would it be fair to the Land Cruiser guys on this board who've purchased the device.

 

[Romer]

Oh well, Looking at your site and the Dual Battery Isolator Combiner would put the controller at $330 for a 200 Amp Unit. Although I do see some features that would be nice to have, they are still "nice to haves" and not requirements.

In my industry, when you let the engineers put all the "nice to haves" in a design is usually when you see large cost overruns and schedule delays.

Too bad you don't even offer a discount for mudders.

I am currently evaluating the manual painless ($150 total) vs the automatic Hellroaring ($250 total). Your system would be close to $400 when you add the wiring, connectors, etc.

 

[mobi-arc]

Ken, certainly wish we could deliver the product at a more moderate price. It's funny how different markets react to pricing. We sell these devices to fleet operators; they go out the door as quickly as we can manufacture them. Those guys have choice of technologies and despite the price, P-GATE insures greater reliability and that's what they value. Our military customers don't have a choice. There simply is no other product on market that can switch [for their application] 400 amps continuous in a solid-state package. Off-road guys are all over the map.

You guys have a good weekend. As for us, we've been building seven days a week for months. We triple our office/manufacturing space come July, and I absolutely love working with this brilliant technology...my Land cruiser would be naked without it!!

 

[Romer]

Just bought the Optima Yellow top from Costco for $140. Installed it in the 2nd tray for now. So One battery is a gel pack Orbital and the other is a Yellow Top Optima.

Tomorrow I'll order the electronics and hopefully get them by Saturday for a weekend installl.

 

[Skillet]

I just finished my dual battery install and used the very simple and manual method outlined by Boston Mangler.

Running the wire and being anal about it took the better part of the weekend and I was happy with the results.

Looking at some of the stuff you guys do and scheme on makes me feel like a real f*cking toadstool underachiever.

Where the hell do you find the time to even come up with this stuff?

AND THEN draw the schematics. Do you guys work?

Friggin milliampres and micropeptides create dual hermetically sealed charging units with overvolted dermatitis.

Too much hullabaloo for me...

Good information though...

 

[alia176]

Ken,

I see you've been inundated with bunch of ideas, opinions, etc.. Well, here's another one....get one of these and forget about it. If I were to do it again, I'd prolly go with this for simplicity:

http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC2150

I know this is a total 180* going the opposite direction but it's an idea!

I have a Wrangler NW dual batt system and it's been doing great. I think it's similar to the Painless system: charge both batts/charge main batt or jump start from aux batt. Main battery is an Exide Orbital starting only, Aux batt is a Yellow Top Optima dual purpose.

Having a strictly deep cycle batt for main batt is a bad idea IMO. Winching and starting require heavy but short hits and the marines aren't up to it. Furthermore, they prefer a long, slow recharging which doesn't happen sitting as the main battery.

Happy hunting

Ali