Drivetrain issue at 75mph on I-89 tonight in NH (1 Viewer)

[KLF]

I'll toss out a couple of thoughts, FWIW.

The one time I know of someone that forgot to fill a rear diff, it was a Toyota mini-truck. He made it about 5 miles, and the thing just seized up. It got so hot it baked all the paint off the back of the axle housing. The friction essentially welded the pinion to the ring gear. The bearings were actually not that badly damaged.

I know the pinion is pretty stout in these diffs, but I'm wondering if the failure could have been caused by pumping waaaay too much grease into the driveshaft slipjoint.

 

[Sandroad]

@blackpaper I just thought of something that hasn't been brought up yet, but potentially could be a huge issue.

If that rear diff got bad enough that it was slipping, it may have been friction in your limited slip center diff driving the front axle to keep you going down the road. This could explain the sensation of the transmission slipping.

If that happened, your center diff is not at all designed for that and most likely damaged to some extent.

Now usually a differential needs to get really, REALLY screwed to not have gear engagement and fully slip, which to me makes this scenario unlikely. But it is something to be aware of.


The problem with this strategy is the pinion seal wouldn't be able to deal with the amount of movement seen in the video, so if it had fluid in it it would have leaked out long ago. There almost certainly isn't anything substantial in there to check.

This is what led people to say there should be a mess under the vehicle. The lack of that could possibly be everything getting blasted by the snow, but it is more likely that there wasn't fluid in there to leak out and make a mess.

Either way, yes, getting it back to the original service location is a good idea. Yes, it will be empty. They may try to claim it just went bad. But that would be just impossible odds.. these things so rarely go bad even with four times the miles.. and coincidentally two weeks after a service where the fluid was changed? Whether it's the wrong fluid or more likely wasn't filled, they clearly played some role in this failure.

I think you may be on to something with the really screwed up differential thing. At least part of the failure was sudden, right after cresting a hill. Perhaps something important broke in the differential that had no oil. The pinion shaft runs on 2 bearings and that thing had so much play I wonder if gear teeth or shaft gave out? Someone needs to check diff operation and make sure the center differential wasn’t handling the load.

 

[biff44]

just spitballing here, but it was wicked cold, and wicked wet last weekend.
any chance something seized up in your brakes, and you were dragging a pad the whole way? As in the emergency brake did not disengage, or something like that.

that would give you a burnt smell, and mess with the RPMs indicated too on the highway

 

[TeCKis300]

Sorry to see. That last dealership service did you a dirty.

 

[Fisher23]

From the pictures it looks like there wasn't any oil in the diff. For the gear oil to get out it looks like the only exit is the pinion, and the oil would have sprayed the whole rear end with gear oil if there was gear oil to spray. You can see in the pic the rear end area near dry.

Documentation, If it was mine I would take a lot of photos and videos of the rear axel and diff area before it's moved and work done it.

Sure appears like the diff oil was drained and not replaced. I've seen this happen with engine oil.

Those dealer bay areas usually have cameras. You may want to get a lawyer to have the original dealer save the film if they have a camera.
They also usually have inventory at the parts area and "back ups" of this data. Meaning if they go in a fudge numbers it is more difficultly changing the backup files. You may want those backup files.

 

[blackpaper]

just spitballing here, but it was wicked cold, and wicked wet last weekend.
any chance something seized up in your brakes, and you were dragging a pad the whole way? As in the emergency brake did not disengage, or something like that.

that would give you a burnt smell, and mess with the RPMs indicated too on the highway

After the emergency brake failed on my 2004 Jeep Liberty due to lack of use , I have been religious about using the parking brake on my 200. So I am confident it engages and disengages properly. Plus , if something with the brakes was seized up , I would have noticed when driving around the hotel parking lot at -10degF on the morning after the incident.

 

[04UZJ100]

^^This. In NE, it's AAA premier membership. As a member, you get one tow up to 200 miles per year. From White River Junction VT to Wellesley MA is about 135 +/- miles. Just one tow worth the membership already.

View attachment 2898025

Have to wait 48 hours after signing up….

 

[gluaisrothai]

Have to wait 48 hours after signing up….

Unless you get the Matt’s Off-road special, allegedly.

 

[bronc076]

That pinion has a lot of play and the housing is way too clean. I suspect it was not filled or not fully filled as others have said. The pinion bearings suffer the most from lack of oil due to their location and the pinion spins at a much higher RPM (3.91 to 1 I think) than the axle shafts. When that drain plug comes out the fluid volume needs measured. But given what the servicing dealer said from your earlier post it sounds like he will work with you. Mistakes happen, hopefully they will make it right and replace the 3rd member with a new one.

 

[bloc]

I know the pinion is pretty stout in these diffs, but I'm wondering if the failure could have been caused by pumping waaaay too much grease into the driveshaft slipjoint.

I'd expect the transfer case output shaft bearing to go before the diff pinion, as it is a much smaller and lighter duty bearing. The pinion bearings by nature are designed to handle extreme thrust loads, exactly what you'd see with an overfilled and incompressable driveshaft. The transfer case bearing is primarily intended to handle radial loads.

I like that people are thinking outside the box though. Also good info about 5 miles before that thing seized.. our diffs are a good bit heavier duty but that is a big disparity in mileage.

 

[blackpaper]

White River Toyota put my Landcruiser back up on a lift this afternoon to check the fluid level in the rear differential. They took a video of the process and sent it to Wellesley Toyota who performed a 90k service two weeks ago on the vehicle. I received a call late today from the Wellesley Toyota Service Manager who said the video clearly showed that the cause of the failure Friday night was due to the lack of fluid in the rear differential.

Wellesley Toyota will be towing my Landcruiser back from White River Toyota this Friday so they can repair it themselves. They will also be dropping off a vehicle for me to use in the meantime so I don't have to pay for my Ford Explorer rental from Avis.

Any details about the repair that you all think I should inquire about? How do I make sure the car ends up in the right condition? This last question is what I am most concerned about. How Can I be confident that I am not going to have string of problems that stem from this incident?

 

[04UZJ100]

White River Toyota put my Landcruiser back up on a lift this afternoon to check the fluid level in the rear differential. They took a video of the process and sent it to Wellesley Toyota who performed a 90k service two weeks ago on the vehicle. I received a call late today from the Wellesley Toyota Service Manager who said the video clearly showed that the cause of the failure Friday night was due to the lack of fluid in the rear differential.

Wellesley Toyota will be towing my Landcruiser back from White River Toyota this Friday so they can repair it themselves. They will also be dropping off a vehicle for me to use in the meantime so I don't have to pay for my Ford Explorer rental from Avis.

Any details about the repair that you all think I should inquire about? How do I make sure the car ends up in the right condition?

Additionally, forgetting the amount of vacation time I spent on this issue, I spent a lot of money to get through the situation - lost $600 on a non-refundable hotel night in Vermont (peak ski season lodging in New England is not cheap), $400 1-week rental of a Ford Explorer, $200 tow to White River Toyota, $25 taxi to rent a car. I would like to recoup these expenses.

Cool Toyota dealer sounds like they’re making it right. I doubt they would reimburse you, though. Doesn’t hurt to ask.

 

[Sandroad]

New wheel bearings and seals. All new internal moving parts. Or a complete new rear axle if that’s available. And a new rear u-joint on the propeller shaft. And some compensation for your huge hassle. Free future services? Compensation for your direct expenses?

 

[bloc]

Awesome that they stepped up. Just them admitting fault here is a huge advantage for future coverage. I'd definitely have them double check fluid levels in anything else they worked on, and as I mentioned determine if the rear diff was damaged to the point of slipping teeth, which may have put strain on your torsen limited slip center diff.

I'm assuming they'll be dropping in a whole diff third member as @bjowett outlined. Ask if that's the plan, or they intend to buy the ring & pinion & bearings and install that into your carrier. If so I'd push for the whole diff chunk instead. Properly setting up gear pattern is a bit of a lost art in most shops and there is virtually no way they'll have enough experience there to do it right.

The rear axle bearings aren't lubricated by gear oil like the diff, so it is unlikely they were damaged. Some of these need bearings around your mileage.. I'd consider just having them check the condition of both bearings since they'll have the axle shafts out. If they show signs of wear (a good master tech will know what to look for) have them replace them. This wouldn't be a big ask, considering how much they've inconvenienced you so far.

Make sure they use new o-rings on the axle ends where the bearing housings attach. With the rust on your axle they'll definitely be needed.

New axle seals on both sides.

Yes consider rear u-joint, though they may push back and say they don't service those, it's a whole new shaft or nothing. IMO the jury is out on whether failing pinion bearings can trash a u-joint, but when those bearings do go bad and the pattern gets bad, it would be an extreme amount of vibration going through that joint. Absolutely have them inspect it for notchiness or slop. If properly lubricated they go for 200k easy while being silky smooth.

If I think of anything else I'll post.

 

[1world1love]

White River Toyota put my Landcruiser back up on a lift this afternoon to check the fluid level in the rear differential. They took a video of the process and sent it to Wellesley Toyota who performed a 90k service two weeks ago on the vehicle. I received a call late today from the Wellesley Toyota Service Manager who said the video clearly showed that the cause of the failure Friday night was due to the lack of fluid in the rear differential.

Wellesley Toyota will be towing my Landcruiser back from White River Toyota this Friday so they can repair it themselves. They will also be dropping off a vehicle for me to use in the meantime so I don't have to pay for my Ford Explorer rental from Avis.

Any details about the repair that you all think I should inquire about? How do I make sure the car ends up in the right condition? This last question is what I am most concerned about. How Can I be confident that I am not going to have string of problems that stem from this incident?

Additionally, forgetting the amount of vacation time I spent on this issue, I spent a lot of money to get through the situation - lost $600 on a non-refundable hotel night in Vermont (peak ski season lodging in New England is not cheap), $400 1-week rental of a Ford Explorer, $200 tow to White River Toyota, $25 taxi to rent a car. I would like to recoup these expenses.

I'd say this was more for your sake than theirs. They probably knew a few minutes after being notified that this was the case. Still though, at least they did not try to blow you off.

Aside from all the fluids, you may also want them to inspect the front and center diff to make sure there isn't any residual damage. Really the entire rear axle needs to be inspected thoroughly. That's a long time to be running without diff fluid.

If they do see a lot of cruisers and Tundras, then I would go there and talk to the MST in person. Explain your concerns. At this point, they are in it so there is not much incentive for him to try to short change you. You may even ask for the MST to personally oversee the repairs.

I would ask them for a parts and labor warranty on the drivetrain for a period of time, including the entire rear axle.

But to be honest, if they do the repair well, you won't have anything to worry about. OEM parts are OEM parts. They aren't going to install cheap knock offs.

IMO, I think it is completely reasonable to hand them over your receipts for expenses. You may need to negotiate, but even if they pay half, that is better than nothing. If they flat refuse, then let them do the work and then file it in small claims.

 

[jivewalker]

Ask them for a lifetime drive line warranty, or at least lifetime on the parts others have mentioned that may have been stressed as a result of the negligence. Also, make sure you have some written documentation of everything. I think you will be good going forward, any future problems that can relate back to this should be easily handled by the dealer if you have a good document record. Best thing you can do now is keep a cool and understanding demeanor with the dealer and be overly nice, but smart and knowledgeable. Don't agree to anything without time to think of the offer. If things go the other way, you can get toyota corp involved or even a lawyer, especially if they admit negligence. Sounds like you are on a good path toward a resolution!

 

[bronc076]

White River Toyota put my Landcruiser back up on a lift this afternoon to check the fluid level in the rear differential. They took a video of the process and sent it to Wellesley Toyota who performed a 90k service two weeks ago on the vehicle. I received a call late today from the Wellesley Toyota Service Manager who said the video clearly showed that the cause of the failure Friday night was due to the lack of fluid in the rear differential.

Wellesley Toyota will be towing my Landcruiser back from White River Toyota this Friday so they can repair it themselves. They will also be dropping off a vehicle for me to use in the meantime so I don't have to pay for my Ford Explorer rental from Avis.

Any details about the repair that you all think I should inquire about? How do I make sure the car ends up in the right condition? This last question is what I am most concerned about. How Can I be confident that I am not going to have string of problems that stem from this incident?

What became of this? Did they take care of you?