So this is a screenshot of my quick measurements of my 80 series with a 3" Lift on 35's. I made a couple small adjustments from the previous pic I posted. Ignore the front diagram because radius arms...
Double triangulated rear 80
- Thread starter nukegoat
- Start date
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3-link vs 4-link, wishbone vs tri etc can plunge us pretty deep, generally speaking 4-link will give you better roll axis and roll steer and a wishbone takes a lot fo lateral load. You would need to run a 1.25" Heim at a minimum in the upper since you are taking the load of 2 joints and putting it into one.
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Trust me I looked into triangulated 4-link but the chief issue is the gas tank. I mean you could probably run like a reverse link or a cantilever or some other cool and weird stuff but for a simple tri the damn tank is in the way, need to mount the upper up and inside the frame to give enough frame side link separation. I love my 80 too much to cut crossmembers and install fuel cells.
Don't let me steal your dream, if you figure out an easy way to do it I'm in.
Don't let me steal your dream, if you figure out an easy way to do it I'm in.
EWheeler
GOLD Star
For your viewing pleasure, triangulated 4 link with factory tank. I'm sure the geometry is "s***", but he wheeled the heck out of it.
forum.ih8mud.com
forum.ih8mud.com
Dean’s 80 no more, now LX-450
Keeping this simple, for others to use as I have used other threads to help me with this project. @nukegoat here is the start; As a long timer cruiser fan, bought this car for a dad and son project. Dean (my kid) loves this sport and has some serious driving skills that I didn’t even know...
forum.ih8mud.com
Raising rear link mounts
I plan to remove my rear axle to clean, paint and rebuild it. I have a slee 4" lift. I already raised the panhard bar axle mount 4 " inches and was planning to raising the lower link mounts 2" to the center point of the axle and raising the upper links to match. All of my links are aftermarket...
forum.ih8mud.com
So we agree that a wish bone functions the same as two triangulated uppers but the forces converge into 1 point? It controls pinion changes and controls lateral movement of the axle. I can’t think of a reason why the functionalists would be difference.
What do you mean by better roll axis and roll steer? Is better a static ride height? It’s is a better curve? This seems like a gross overgeneralization
I think ballistic makes something that is sufficient
Ballistic Uniball
ballisticfabrication.com
The problem with ballistic joints, johnny joints etc is that they arent actually tested. The ballistic joint you posted is about the same size as a 7/8 heim who's best radial load is not enough to function as a single upper. Below is an example of a 7/8 heim with a 3/4 bore like the ballistic next a an 1.25" heim with 1" bore, the 1.25 heim meets radial load requirements for a single joint.
Thats like saying that a 4link is the same as a radius arm. At a high level all suspension functions the same, they all have their differences, pros/cons etc. Does a Watts link function the same as a track bar? Yes it controls lateral movement fundamentally but does so in a different way. I just dont have a desire to repeat whats been discussed ad naseum or have that deep of a conversation about the differences.
The problem with ballistic joints, johnny joints etc is that they arent actually tested. The ballistic joint you posted is about the same size as a 7/8 heim who's best radial load is not enough to function as a single upper.
They make a 3” version that takes a 3/4” bolt and I can guarantee ultimate radial load it will take is multiple times more than the bushings that Toyota put in stock. It’s a chromoly housing, bronze race, with a heat treated stainless ball… come on
I don’t believe that you have an explanation for your reasoning. If you did you would’ve stated it already and stopped avoiding my question. If you know, explain it, this is a forum meant to educate. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know, it’ll help me learn because I’m pretty new to this stuff still
EWheeler
GOLD Star
For that upper wishbone, I would use an FK uniball assembly at the axle. They make the balls and the cups in lots of sizes. Balls are replaceable. Baja trucks trust them all over the chassis.They make a 3” version that takes a 3/4” bolt and I can guarantee ultimate radial load it will take is multiple times more than the bushings that Toyota put in stock. It’s a chromoly housing, bronze race, with a heat treated stainless ball… come on
I don’t believe that you have an explanation for your reasoning. If you did you would’ve stated it already and stopped avoiding my question. If you know, explain it, this is a forum meant to educate. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know, it’ll help me learn because I’m pretty new to this stuff still
Uniball Components - Kartek Off-Road
Uniball Components for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, NORRA 500, NORRA Mexican 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno, Silk Way Rally, Crandon International, East African Safari Rally...
I was looking for these but got lazy and gave up! Heims are always tempting but have a tendency to wear out to quickly where I liveFor that upper wishbone, I would use an FK uniball assembly at the axle. They make the balls and the cups in lots of sizes. Balls are replaceable. Baja trucks trust them all over the chassis.
Uniball Components - Kartek Off-Road
Uniball Components for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, NORRA 500, NORRA Mexican 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno, Silk Way Rally, Crandon International, East African Safari Rally...www.kartek.com
A bushing and a joint are completely different things and handle loads in completely different ways. At the end of the day, the only joint that you can actually calculate load are heims.They make a 3” version that takes a 3/4” bolt and I can guarantee ultimate radial load it will take is multiple times more than the bushings that Toyota put in stock. It’s a chromoly housing, bronze race, with a heat treated stainless ball… come on
I don’t believe that you have an explanation for your reasoning. If you did you would’ve stated it already and stopped avoiding my question. If you know, explain it, this is a forum meant to educate. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know, it’ll help me learn because I’m pretty new to this stuff still
You’re right, it’s a forum not an interrogation room, I don’t have to answer any question I don’t feel like answering. I could give a **** what you believe, and clearly wasted enough of my time already.
Good luck with your triangulation.
EWheeler
GOLD Star
Not sure you'll get much more life out of a uniball as it is just as exposed to the elements as the internals of a heim, but they are much stronger if you design your connection from the links to the uniball cup properly.
I’m not even ganna do it… I was just curious if you had an explanation for your reasoning
good talking to you Mr Joe cova
That’s why I like the ballistic uniball, it has similar construction to TMRs lifetime heim which seems to be holding up well in what they’ve tested them in and it’s greasable. Not knowing the load it will take is a little creepy but based on the size and construction I’m assuming that if something bad happened, something else would break first
Delta VS
Supporting Vendor
So we agree that a wish bone functions the same as two triangulated uppers but the forces converge into 1 point? It controls pinion changes and controls lateral movement of the axle. I can’t think of a reason why the functionalists would be difference.
What do you mean by better roll axis and roll steer? Is better a static ride height? It’s is a better curve? This seems like a gross overgeneralization
I think ballistic makes something that is sufficient
Ballistic Uniball
Result: with a wishbone, the axle will rotate (perspective of standing behind vehicle) around the joint where it connects to the axle (for this example we'll assume top center). So, driver tire goes up, passenger tire goes DOWN an equal amount. With other system, driver tire goes up, passenger tire does NOT need to move (it will likely translate a little laterally but doesn't have to go up/down at all).
edit: see follow up below
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Maybe I’m just not understanding. If two triangulated uppers allow for side to side movement. What controls the lateral movement of a single triangulated 4 link that doesn’t have a panhard?
Delta VS
Supporting Vendor
after brain sneaking back to this all afternoon, thinking it's a bit more subtle than at first glance. thinking you are mostly correct in that they act very similar to each other, but not identical. close enough to be thought of as the same. small difference being that the point of rotation will be above center of axle with the wishbone (at the connection point of wishbone-axle), point of rotation (I think) will be closer to center of diff when double triangle is set up correctly (not at all sure about that, would need to spend some time in cad to get a better sense of it).
earlier comment about allowing side to side movement needs to be amended to something like "allows a small amount of movement".
if both tires are moving up/down at same time, effect will be essentially identical. if one tire is moving up/down while other tire is on flat ground, you will have more control over how the body moves wrt to the ground by adjusting link geometry of double triangle.
I had a long reply typed out, and then it went poof when I got a notification. So this is my short take on it.
Previous setup was all stock, no sway bar 3" Dobinson springs all around.
New setup is very similar to the original, but tailored around my 3" list with a little more anti-squat(~95%). Lower Barnes 1-1/4" joints, upper 1-1/4 heim and rebuildable joints at the chassis.
Pre was decent to drive, but had some roll induced rear steer and squirm from the track bar when hitting bumps. All was tolerable and not really noticed until I did the swap.
Post is night an day better. None of the above, much less constrained and induces less force and movement into the body. Almost to the point you forget that there is a rear axle, until it hits the bump stops.
Its also nice getting the lower links further away from the ground. Chassis end is pretty flat due to some gas tank clearance'ng, and axle end is pretty flat with the bottom of the axle tube.
After the front 3-link adding extra body roll, there is almost no axle steer. Roll into and through corners and bumps and no needed steering adjustment. Really night and day, yet not noticed much until afterwards.
Previous setup was all stock, no sway bar 3" Dobinson springs all around.
New setup is very similar to the original, but tailored around my 3" list with a little more anti-squat(~95%). Lower Barnes 1-1/4" joints, upper 1-1/4 heim and rebuildable joints at the chassis.
Pre was decent to drive, but had some roll induced rear steer and squirm from the track bar when hitting bumps. All was tolerable and not really noticed until I did the swap.
Post is night an day better. None of the above, much less constrained and induces less force and movement into the body. Almost to the point you forget that there is a rear axle, until it hits the bump stops.
Its also nice getting the lower links further away from the ground. Chassis end is pretty flat due to some gas tank clearance'ng, and axle end is pretty flat with the bottom of the axle tube.
After the front 3-link adding extra body roll, there is almost no axle steer. Roll into and through corners and bumps and no needed steering adjustment. Really night and day, yet not noticed much until afterwards.
I've read that if the convergence point of the upper link is where you place the upper single of the wishbone, that they will act the same. Never punched in any numbers to confirm this though. Might give it a go early next week and see what I find.
The single upper joint of the wishbone as you described here is what creates the additional roll steer caused by axle rotation on a fixed point.
A properly setup triangulated -link will significantly reduce or minimize roll steer.
Triangulating and extending the lowers probably dropped your roll steer significantly. Looks like a 40" link and 15 degrees based on the pics I can see.
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Yup, it's almost as if the math pre and post worked out.
