Does a shock push the axle down?

[dclee]

Posts 201 and 202 answered your question. The bars themselves are not progressive. The "system" or "suspension" is however as you overtwist the bar toward compliance after the lift. Had I slapped on the T-bar and not lifted the suspension would cycle better and easier. You know this.

That's NOT what you said, and even if you did, it's still wrong...

:shotts:

Anyway, I'll trust to experts such as Christo or Darren on these types of issues. I don't pretend to know more than them.

 

[bull]

I can...I still haven't lowered the bump stops..

So what exactly do I need to measure. The shock eye to eye at full compression hitting the OEM bump stop?

 

[dclee]

Now, for the rest of us that aren't currently using bumpstop extensions, adding the N74L's will not give us the same amount of increase as John experienced because we aren't currently loosing that initial 2 inches of compression. Unless we can work out a way to add the N74L's without adding the 2 inch bumpstop extensions.

Greg, good post, thanks for bringing some rational thought to this (I know I certainly haven't...).

A quick point: The bumpstops are necessary for the L shocks because they are longer in both extended AND compressed states, therefore you need the bumpstop to avoid compressing the shock to its upper limit, which would quickly lead to a destroyed shock. The bumpstops may also be needed to run the 35" tires, but that is not the primary reason for using them (at least on an 80, which is where my experience lies). So, as of today, I personally don't see any way to run OME L shocks without the bumpstop extensions.

edit: Actually, let me rephrase that, I'm sure you could do it by some creative hacking and welding on the shocks mounts, or something else, but as for bolt-on solutions, I don't see any way to avoid the bumpstop extensions.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Will everybody quit jumping all over each other and consider this for a second. Shotts, Christo, and Darren can all be "right" from their own perspectives.

I think it has been thourougly explained by Christo, Darren, and others how the N74L does not gain hardly any travel if a 2 inch bumpstop extension is used. (.6 inches to be exact)

On the other hand, Shotts has claimed that it has made a world of difference to him since he added the N74L's.

Well guess what, they're all right!

The real difference here is that Christo and Darren are looking at this from a different point of view than John is. They are looking at what it would take to run an N74L. If it takes a 2" bumpstop extension to get the job done, then you're gaining droop but loosing compression. Very little gain to be had.

John is looking at this from a different viewpoint. Long before he added the N74L's, he used a 2" bumpstop extension to keep his 315's from rubbing the wheel wells. When he did this, he lost 2 inches of compression on his orginal N101's. He ran this way for quite a while.

Then a year later, (or however long it was) he added the N74L's to his 100. Voila, he instantly added 2.6 inches of travel to his suspension. Looking at it from his point of view, he just gained some serious travel with a pair of shocks. But that gain is realized because of past changes that John made to his rig instead of doing this all at once.

Now, for the rest of us that aren't currently using bumpstop extensions, adding the N74L's will not give us the same amount of increase as John experienced because we aren't currently loosing that initial 2 inches of compression. Unless we can work out a way to add the N74L's without adding the 2 inch bumpstop extensions.

If someone can pull one of their rear shocks and measure the distance once the axle is compressed to the bumpstop, we can then know how much bumpstop extension is needed, if any at all. Is anyone willing to do this for the group?

Yes! Yes! See...YOU can write. Exactly.

One comment though....with a 35" tire and a Slee Bumper (my setup) there ISN'T ANY added room for more compression. The bumper is an identical travel "bumpstop" for the rear wheel on my truck. They both touch together.
In other words...I can't write...if you don't lower the bumpstops, the bumper will stop the compression.

 

[bull]

I'm going to get the axle to rest on the bumpstop tonight (or try to). I'm curious to see if the tire won't limit this happening by stuffing itself up into the wheel well limiting travel. ( just a thought). Snap some pics later this afternoon.

please note I'm talking about 315s

Greg, good post, thanks for bringing some rational thought to this (I know I certainly haven't...).

A quick point: The bumpstops are necessary for the L shocks because they are longer in both extended AND compressed states, therefore you need the bumpstop to avoid compressing the shock to its upper limit, which would quickly lead to a destroyed shock. The bumpstops may also be needed to run the 35" tires, but that is not the primary reason for using them (at least on an 80, which is where my experience lies). So, as of today, I personally don't see any way to run OME L shocks without the bumpstop extensions.

edit: Actually, let me rephrase that, I'm sure you could do it by some creative hacking and welding on the shocks mounts, or something else, but as for bolt-on solutions, I don't see any way to avoid the bumpstop extensions.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I personally don't see any way to run OME L shocks without the bumpstop extensions.

edit: Actually, let me rephrase that, I'm sure you could do it by some creative hacking and welding on the shocks mounts, or something else, but as for bolt-on solutions, I don't see any way to avoid the bumpstop extensions.

Consistent with my experiment.

 

[hoser]

Related question here...

Just suppose we have 10" total of wheel travel in the rear. At ride height, what is the ideal ratio of compression to extension? 5" compression, 5" extension? 7" of compression, 3" extension?

Springs aside, what ratio would we get with the N101 (w/ 3" of lift)?
What ratio would we get with the N74L (w/3" of lift) and 2" lowered bumpstops?

So, what I'm asking is even though the N74L and 2" bumpstop didn't gain any suspension travel, which shock gives us the better compression/extension ratio? Is there even such an ideal ratio?

 

[dclee]

I'm going to get the axle to rest on the bumpstop tonight (or try to). I'm curious to see if the tire won't limit this happening by stuffing itself up into the wheel well limiting travel. ( just a thought). Snap some pics later this afternoon.

please note I'm talking about 315s

That could very well be. Not sure what would happen on a 100. Looking forward to the info!

 

[Greg B]

I can...I still haven't lowered the bump stops..

So what exactly do I need to measure. The shock eye to eye at full compression hitting the OEM bump stop?

Please measure from the upper shock mount hole to the center of the bolt on the lower shock mount. Then we can compare the dimensions of the N74L to that measurement to know how much extension we'll need. Thanks for offering to help Bull.

 

[Greg B]

Greg, good post, thanks for bringing some rational thought to this (I know I certainly haven't...).

A quick point: The bumpstops are necessary for the L shocks because they are longer in both extended AND compressed states, therefore you need the bumpstop to avoid compressing the shock to its upper limit, which would quickly lead to a destroyed shock. The bumpstops may also be needed to run the 35" tires, but that is not the primary reason for using them (at least on an 80, which is where my experience lies). So, as of today, I personally don't see any way to run OME L shocks without the bumpstop extensions.

edit: Actually, let me rephrase that, I'm sure you could do it by some creative hacking and welding on the shocks mounts, or something else, but as for bolt-on solutions, I don't see any way to avoid the bumpstop extensions.

Derek,
I understand what you're saying and I agree that a bumpstop extension is probably needed, but until someone gives an accurate measurement to compare to the N74L, we won't know how much bumpstop extension is truly needed.

 

[wngrog]

Related question here...

Just suppose we have 10" total of wheel travel in the rear. At ride height, what is the ideal ratio of compression to extension? 5" compression, 5" extension? 7" of compression, 3" extension?

Springs aside, what ratio would we get with the N101 (w/ 3" of lift)?
What ratio would we get with the N74L (w/3" of lift) and 2" lowered bumpstops?

So, what I'm asking is even though the N74L and 2" bumpstop didn't gain any suspension travel, which shock gives us the better compression/extension ratio? Is there even such an ideal ratio?

When I do travel on my rockcrawlers, it is more like 30% uptravel and 70% downtravel.

 

[SINCITY100]

Are we STILL talking about John`s famous "Snake oil mod" for the 100?

I bet 10 years from now there will still be threads titled.. "74L on a 100 series..does it really work ? " .. or perhaps it will be in the " Top 10 most worthless mods on a 100" ...


All kiddin` aside, I stand my ground and applaud John for trying something "new" on his rig that could help the 100`s off road ability...however slight or seemingly "moderate".


I am still sitting on a set N-74L`s at home, waiting for my 33`s to wear out so I can do the same mod to my 100 (w/35`s) ;p

 

[Greg B]

I'm going to get the axle to rest on the bumpstop tonight (or try to). I'm curious to see if the tire won't limit this happening by stuffing itself up into the wheel well limiting travel. ( just a thought). Snap some pics later this afternoon.

please note I'm talking about 315s

Bull,
I think you're going to find the same thing as Shotts. If the tire hits the Slee bumper like John is suggesting, you might not be able to get a good measurement. Do you possibly have a stock tire and wheel still? If you had one, you could put it on the rear axle and then the tire wouldn't limit the compression and you could get an accurate measurement. Just a thought...

Thanks for trying none the less.

 

[hoser]

When I do travel on my rockcrawlers, it is more like 30% uptravel and 70% downtravel.

I'm guessing your ideal compression/extension ratio would be different than a 100 as your rockcrawler weighs half that of a 100? I realize my question might not be so simple as it could depend on vehicle weight, spring rate, intended usage, etc.

 

[dclee]

Please measure from the upper shock mount hole to the center of the bolt on the lower shock mount. Then we can compare the dimensions of the N74L to that measurement to know how much extension we'll need. Thanks for offering to help Bull.

Bull -

Another idea, if you still have your OEM rear shocks, see if you can take the same measurement (compressed length) as you do for the N74L, and we can use simple arithmetic to figure out what that difference is.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Look....all I care about is that I did a modification that helped the truck. I don't care if true experts correct my terminology. What I do care about is when true experts discredit the improvement that I've shared with others. That is not fair to the forum members who are looking at how to improve their trucks.

Neither is it fair to forum members to post incorrect information as to why it is working. That is all I wanted to point out.

Greg B, I said right in the beginning, that this was not a bashing, wanted to just point something out. The question was never does a L shock work etc etc.

If Bull can measure what the spacing is between shock mounts when the axle is pushed up to contact the bumpstop, then we can figure out what we need to do. I would do it, but I do not have a truck up pn the lift.

Bull, measure from center of mounting eye on the bottom to mounting surface on the top.

 

[Greg B]

Bull -

Another idea, if you still have your OEM rear shocks, see if you can take the same measurement (compressed length) as you do for the N74L, and we can use simple arithmetic to figure out what that difference is.

Maybe not so. There may be more compression to be had than what the OEM shocks offered. On my old Rover, you could move the upper shock mount down two inches and still not bottom out the shock but gain two inches of droop. The 100 may be the same way, don't know for sure, but the only real way to know is to measure the 100, not the OEM shocks.

 

[Greg B]

Greg B, I said right in the beginning, that this was not a bashing, wanted to just point something out. The question was never does a L shock work etc etc.

Christo,
Please don't get the wrong idea. In my post, I was not pointing fingers at any of you guys. I was only trying to point out that depending on the person's view, all of you have a point. I only want to come up with a solution that we can all benefit from. Thanks for taking the time to work with us on stuff like this.
GB

 

[sleeoffroad]

Christo,
Please don't get the wrong idea. In my post, I was not pointing fingers at any of you guys. I was only trying to point out that depending on the person's view, all of you have a point. I only want to come up with a solution that we can all benefit from. Thanks for taking the time to work with us on stuff like this.
GB

No sweat, once we get the measurement from Bull we can do the same as I posted in this post on the 80 series board. Then we will know if you can use it or not.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=1035651&postcount=27

 

[bull]

No sweat, once we get the measurement from Bull we can do the same as I posted in this post on the 80 series board. Then we will know if you can use it or not.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=1035651&postcount=27

Heading home around 4:30 today (pacific) Pics and measurements to come..