Ditching the KDSS who wants to help me?

[Trollhole]

Anyone want to be the guinea pig and help me figure out if the VDJ200 sway bars will replace the KDSS?

I'm willing to ship out a set and see if they will work. I also have no idea how this will effect the stability control. But eventually the kdss is going to crap out and be expensive to fix. So might as well start figuring it out now.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I've been looking through schematics to double check, as well have never seen even a wire attached to anything KDSS. That and the description is that it is a purely mechanical and hydraulic system, and not electronic. So I'm willing to say with almost certainty that you could pull everything KDSS out, and put in a normal 200 series anti-sway bars, and nothing electronic in the 200 will notice it.

But from driving a long travel FJ without anti sway bars, if the day ever comes that it will cost me even up to $3k to fix anything KDSS related, I'm going to pay up. Love that system, as the 200 flexes better than any stock vehicle I have personally witnessed, including JK Rubicon's. Then the fact that it keeps that heavy 200 with big 'ol RTT stabile on mountain road, is just too awesome to give up.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Yes on the front part, as should the LX570 parts. D-bushing and brackets & links themselves would be different too. Mounting at the front LCA is the same.

Rear is different, the KDSS bar mounts to pads on the front of the axle housing, the LX570 and non-KDSS (VDJ200 came both ways) mounts on the rear and I don't recall seeing the tabs in place on the rear KDSS axle housing.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Yes on the front part, as should the LX570 parts. D-bushing and brackets & links themselves would be different too. Mounting at the front LCA is the same.

Rear is different, the KDSS bar mounts to pads on the front of the axle housing, the LX570 and non-KDSS (VDJ200 came both ways) mounts on the rear and I don't recall seeing the tabs in place on the rear KDSS axle housing.

Ahh, I didn't think about the rear being different until you said something. Well played Kurt, you magnificent cruiser head you! Does the rear axle of a non KDSS truck look the same as a tundra? Because I remember those bar hanging kinda low. The only reason I say that is because there are a bunch of wrecked tundras out there, and maybe we could cut the brackets off of those and weld them to a 200 KDSS axle housing.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Ahh, I didn't think about the rear being different until you said something. Well played Kurt, you magnificent cruiser head you! Does the rear axle of a non KDSS truck look the same as a tundra? Because I remember those bar hanging kinda low. The only reason I say that is because there are a bunch of wrecked tundras out there, and maybe we could cut the brackets off of those and weld them to a 200 KDSS axle housing.

Yup, the bar sits under the axle (like the 100, etc) whereas the KDSS is higher clearance. The brackets would be tho to source or replicate if one was inspired.

 

[Trollhole]

Well I have 10 sets of non kdss sway bars with all the bracketry but those rear tabs. Will see what I can do to copy a set off a vdj200. Have a few locally.

 

[Narkhelek]

But eventually the kdss is going to crap out and be expensive to fix. So might as well start figuring it out now.

The KDSS is not going to eventually crap out. The 200 isn't KDSS's first ride so to speak and it's proven to be a very reliable technology. The only part that could wear out is the hydraulic cylinder and those aren't exactly flimsy wear prone components.

There are reasons to replace the current sway bar setup (long travel or other wise heavily modified suspension) but it's not because of concerns over reliability.

 

[Sandroad]

I think removing the KDSS may have an effect on the vehicle dynamics electronics. The software running the VSC especially (and maybe other electronics) is programmed to anticipate and correct vehicle control issues based on mechanical accelerometers, level sensors, and the like. That software may be confused if the KDSS is removed and any other sway control system installed in its place. Just because there is no direct wire to the KDSS, doesn't mean the computers will react correctly to sensor input without it. In other words, replacing the KDSS may require re-programming some aspects of the vehicle dynamics control software to keep everything stable.

 

[Trollhole]

The KDSS is not going to eventually crap out. The 200 isn't KDSS's first ride so to speak and it's proven to be a very reliable technology. The only part that could wear out is the hydraulic cylinder and those aren't exactly flimsy wear prone components.

There are reasons to replace the current sway bar setup (long travel or other wise heavily modified suspension) but it's not because of concerns over reliability.

Well let's just say that those that fail to treat or protect the leveling set screws are going to be screwed. Lines will fail if the rust I've seen already on very new vehicles continues.

 

[Narkhelek]

Well let's just say that those that fail to treat or protect the leveling set screws are going to be screwed. Lines will fail if the rust I've seen already on very new vehicles continues.

The metal choice for the KDSS valve housing is definitely questionable and should be treated with something like fluid film or blaster corrosion stop. However, I think even if neglected it would take a very long time before it would rust enough that it would compromise anything other than access to the set screws. I haven't seen any issues with the hydraulic lines.

I'm not arguing that there is not a need for a KDSS replacement sway bar option. I'm just not convinced that reliability is one. What ever the replacement is I imagine it should have some kind of sway-bar disconnect for it to have utility for those going the long-travel route.

 

[Trollhole]

Totally agree. I will say the set screw thing freaks me out. I won't even go into detail as to how many curse words were used on the last one in the shop.

 

[Narkhelek]

I think removing the KDSS may have an effect on the vehicle dynamics electronics. The software running the VSC especially (and maybe other electronics) is programmed to anticipate and correct vehicle control issues based on mechanical accelerometers, level sensors, and the like. That software may be confused if the KDSS is removed and any other sway control system installed in its place. Just because there is no direct wire to the KDSS, doesn't mean the computers will react correctly to sensor input without it. In other words, replacing the KDSS may require re-programming some aspects of the vehicle dynamics control software to keep everything stable.

As long as the replacement sway-bar system is beefy enough to manage the weight of the vehicle while cornering, there shouldn't be an issue. There is nothing electronic about the KDSS system. It's just there to reduce body roll while cornering. As long as the replacement system did that the VSC should be happy. If you did have excessive body roll you'd end up with VSC alerts and braking actions that would reduce the turn radius while cornering at speed as the vehicle would think you're getting close to rolling. This can be very dangerous as it can force you to make a wider turn than intended in to on-coming traffic or obstacles.

 

[Narkhelek]

Totally agree. I will say the set screw thing freaks me out. I won't even go into detail as to how many curse words were used on the last one in the shop.

No kidding. I have no idea what Toyota was thinking or why they still haven't addressed the issue. I believe i've seen posts about 2016 LCs with serious rust on the valve housing.

 

[Trollhole]

I can understanding a 8-11 having some rust issues. But 12 on there should be very little. This was a 3 year old truck when we got it. Just about every weld was rusted. Every suspension bolt had to be cut off or drill and tapped. Even after soaking it for a week in pbblaster and using heat.

We had to wire wheel all the rust. Treat it and then top coat it. The hex relief valves had to be heated up almost to a point I wasn't comfortable with before they broke free. You can see the one line probably will never be able to move without replacement. This is the first 200 I've seen with this much rust. Being only 3 years old is really troubling.

 

[Malleus]

I can understanding a 8-11 having some rust issues. But 12 on there should be very little. This was a 3 year old truck when we got it. Just about every weld was rusted. Every suspension bolt had to be cut off or drill and tapped. Even after soaking it for a week in pbblaster and using heat. View attachment 1394208 View attachment 1394206View attachment 1394207

We had to wire wheel all the rust. Treat it and then top coat it. The hex relief valves had to be heated up almost to a point I wasn't comfortable with before they broke free. You can see the one line probably will never be able to move without replacement. This is the first 200 I've seen with this much rust. Being only 3 years old is really troubling.

View attachment 1394209

View attachment 1394205

If this is a 3-year old rig, and I take your word for the fact, this is clearly a manufacturing defect. This vehicle should have gone back to the dealership with a letter on legal letterhead.

I've done a great deal of failure analysis, including the automotive manufacturing sector, and this is very clearly a manufacturing defect. During reliability testing, representative components and connections are routinely washed in corrosive solvents and salts, to simulate accelerated exposure, in order to expose these types of failures and promote design decisions to mitigate them.

Having said all that, I would be interested in discussing the "guinea pig" option with you detail. PM me.

 

[Willy beamin]

@Trollhole - I like your thinking - In other parts of the world you can purchase a non-KDSS cruiser. So owning and using one without KDSS has merit, no denying that. In fact there was a guy from down under that posted up in the 200 forum a few years backs that purchased a non-KDSS truck as he knew he wanted to run larger tires and a larger lift and didn't want the hassle of work arounds to accomplish his end game.

I'd just be cautious of taking action before it was needed, to each their own. From my experience KDSS helps on off camber situations by keeping tires contacted to the ground by allowing more droop which assists in stabilizing the truck. That's like droop with hydraulic force backing it. Even if you figure out a way to fashion the alternative sway bar to be a quick disconnect you're going to loose out on that stability aspect and the stability aspect is nice with such a heavy and tall rig - tall because if you need room for larger tires, which is most of the limit we bitch about with KDSS, then you probably are lifting it a good amount, raising the CG. What the school of though on that?

 

[silverhorse]

what happened with this outcome?

 

[linuxgod]

I suspect it never happened or Trollhole would've posted updates. It would be interesting to see, but practically unless your KDSS is leaking and needs to be completely replaced you'd be better off keeping it.

What would be interesting (and likely more useful) would be figuring out a front sway bar change which would eliminate rubbing on the sway bar and KDSS arm without the end link problems associated with the Slee relo kit.

 

[Volunteer]

Interested as well. I had this discussion in another thread maybe last week but I am in that camp that would delete the KDSS if it ever failed just not gonna spend the money to repair it. I have no complaints and am in no hurry to do so but when the time comes thats the direction I will go. Its not the popular choice for many but thats what makes this forum great there are those that will try and give others the option and resolution if that suits their needs. I drove a built 80 without sway bars for many years without issue which was ill advised as well but it worked out fine for my needs.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Kinda cool that I’m responding to a thread I responded to two years ago.

Only because I am currently working on something else this week, I had all my bars out of the truck, so nothing was attached. KDSS cylinders and hard lines still in the truck and pressurized, but they don’t move, because there no input from the wheels.

I went for a test drive, it wasn’t as tippy as I was expecting. I do have heavy spring rates though and the truck was unloaded at the time. So I could definitely see where factory spring would be more sway-eee.

Fun to play with things.