Currie Anti Rock sway bars

[cruisermatt]

In my experience panhards with leaf springs have been a bandaid for too thin leafs and crappy bushings and TRE’s. Think Jeep.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

In my experience panhards with leaf springs have been a bandaid for too thin leafs and crappy bushings and TRE’s. Think Jeep.

Think ford super duty f250 f250 trucks with big thick wide leaf springs they come factory with a panhard bar and cross over steering not that i am a ford fan at all but.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I'm not saying that this is the gospel or anyone here is wrong, I'm just putting this information out there.

From this post - when is a track bar needed.

"You need a track bar ANYTIME you have crossover steering, meaning the gearbox is on the opposite side from the drag link attachment point. The reason most leaf spring vehicles do not have them is they utilize a push-pull steering setup where the pitman arm it perpendicular to the frame rail and the drag link attaches to the knuckle on the same side of the frame as the gear box. Newer leaf spring Ford trucks all have track bars since they switched to crossover steering in recent years. "

"actually, death wobble on leaf rigs with crossover steering is quite common especially with front shackles and kingpins that are springloaded..

most oem crossover steering straight axles, will have a trac bar. the bell crank inline style steering systems dont need them.

you can get away without a panhard with crossover, i dont always run mine. but properly setup, having a panhard with the crossover makes a huge difference in steering response. and many times strengthens the system. "

A random post on a random forum is not a reliable source, nor are we. That is a ranger forum, so they're probably putting jeep axles in their trucks. LCs use larger (stiffer) frames, with larger (stiffer) springs than jeeps and rangers. If what he's saying is true, that "you need a track bar anytime you have crossover steering..." then Toyota built all of their land cruises "the wrong way" from the 1950s until 1997.

@tmxmotorsports what year leaf spring F250 came with panhard bars? Can you give me a year and picture? I own a leaf spring superduty and it doesn't have a panhard bar. I searched around and only found panhard bars on 05+ trucks, which came with factory front leaf springs.

My leaf spring Dana 60 front land cruiser has crossover steering with no panhard bar, for 40k miles now, and don't have death wobble. Why is that if a panhard is "ALWAYS needed"?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Can we move this back to talking about antirock sways? Matt, what if we put the swaybar inside the front leaf springs, with maybe 6 or 8" arms. That would keep everything away from the tires. Might be able to get a mount in there in between the bumps and shocks.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

A random post on a random forum is not a reliable source, nor are we. That is a ranger forum, so they're probably putting jeep axles in their trucks. LCs use larger (stiffer) frames, with larger (stiffer) springs than jeeps and rangers. If what he's saying is true, that "you need a track bar anytime you have crossover steering..." then Toyota built all of their land cruises "the wrong way" from the 1950s until 1997.

@tmxmotorsports what year leaf spring F250 came with panhard bars? Can you give me a year and picture? I own a leaf spring superduty and it doesn't have a panhard bar. I searched around and only found panhard bars on 05+ trucks, which came with factory front leaf springs.

My leaf spring Dana 60 front land cruiser has crossover steering with no panhard bar, for 40k miles now, and don't have death wobble. Why is that if a panhard is "ALWAYS needed"?

Here ya go random pics of the internet.... what year is your f250

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Right, so what year is that truck? My superduty is an 04. Coil springs started in 05.

Maybe they needed panhards to stabilize the axles in those trucks when ran at or above their spring capacity, or maybe it's because they only ran 2 leafs in those packs, but it doesn't mean that panhard bars are necessary.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

Your truck has one pic is from 99 to whatever year they stopped putting leaf springs. Not trying to argue here just giving info. I have been building big dumb trucks years all with crossover steering only a couple with a panhard bar. Just because you don't run one on your rig doesn't mean its not needed and i am not saying you are anyone needs it will it help some things yes do you have to have one no
Tommy

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I definitely appreciate the discussion, and I'll check my truck again today. I will point out that my truck is 2wd, that might make a difference.

Just because you don't run one on your rig doesn't mean its not needed

This is my point. TOYOTA didn't think it was needed, which means (at the very least) it's not *always* needed, like has been asserted in this thread.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

Well of course the 2wd won't have one lol
Landcruisers are sprung under low arched springs and relatively flat steering angles all of that combined will have less push pull from crossover steering from factory i didn't say that it was necessary but i can guarantee if you were to install one on your rig you would notice a difference in your steering.

 

[workingdog]

Toyota shipped my truck with 0 degrees caster - which was ridiculous - but since the truck was available in other parts of the world without power steering, that's what they did. It was a time in which handling wasn't considered that important in a rig. It had a front stabilizer bar. But my '84 is the worst driving vehicle I'd ever driven. Worse than the 26,000 lb truck I used to won. It was that way stock - vague, under steer, wandering. I don't think that because it became from the factory that way is much of an argment. And it's not gotten any better with the changes I made. The last 35 years have seen huge leaps in understanding of suspension. I've got to say, the argument that it was designed that way originally doesn't hold a lot of water with me. I also have a 1966 FJ40, I'm happy I no longer have a voltage regulator, carburetor, or even the 2f.

As to the desire to move this thread back to Currie Anti-rock, I'm fine with that. But I don't want to use sway bars to solve a problem that might be better solved with a track bar.

 

[cruisermatt]

Can we move this back to talking about antirock sways? Matt, what if we put the swaybar inside the front leaf springs, with maybe 6 or 8" arms. That would keep everything away from the tires. Might be able to get a mount in there in between the bumps and shocks.

The nice thing about short arms and short bar is super low cost.. 6-8" arms and ~27" length means a 1/2" bar would be pretty close.
Cheap to build.

I've been playing around with rates... i think a bar with a slighty softer rate then then the factory bars will be good for what we want. That is how the bars from Currie are, the only thing that makes them an "offroad" sway bar is that they are intended to be a lot softer then the sway bars they are replacing on Jeeps and such.

I think a large portion of the effectiveness of the stock sway bars is lost in the compliance of mushy rubber mounts, link bushings, etc.

 

[cruisermatt]

I wonder if this would fit around the 60 steering box/pitman and clear big tires... this is a stock width FJ60 front axle so tire clearance shouldn't be an issue. 2500 Dodge Ram sway bar. With tighter frame mounts should fit between the springs and frame (I have about 3" on mine) It's a 1.25" bar though so I think it would almost certainly have to be disconnected offroad with leafs.

 

[workingdog]

That is very cool, can you get a picture of where it's running under the radiator cross member?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Well of course the 2wd won't have one lol

False!! I was wrong, my 04 2wd does have a panhard bar. It's tucked behind the steering, never saw it before.

In researching, it seems that ford was one of the only companies to do this, if not the only, so there must have been a specific use case for it. My truck is a F550, and still only has two front leafs, so maybe it has to do with Ford's choice to use so few leafs in such a heavy truck. I still firmly believe that a panhard bar is a band-aid, not a proper design choice. I love my super duty, but it came with lots of factory band-aids.

Toyota shipped my truck with 0 degrees caster - which was ridiculous - but since the truck was available in other parts of the world without power steering, that's what they did. It was a time in which handling wasn't considered that important in a rig. It had a front stabilizer bar. But my '84 is the worst driving vehicle I'd ever driven. Worse than the 26,000 lb truck I used to won. It was that way stock - vague, under steer, wandering. I don't think that because it became from the factory that way is much of an argment. And it's not gotten any better with the changes I made

Do you just make this s*** up? Why would you think Toyota shipped these trucks with zero caster?

Going back through the posts, you had someone put the axles under your truck. The best advice is to go to an alignment shop to get your current numbers. In my experience, and others, you need 2-4* of caster, 1/16-1/8 of toe in, good tires and good stiff shocks. Finally, depending on tire size/weight, going to spring less arms on your Dana 60 can help, that's something that helped on my truck.

Once you have achieved that, you should investigate doing a front anti-sway bar. I'm following Matt, because an anti-sway will fix the body roll I have.

If you're hell-bent on it, put on a panhard on your leaf spring suspension and report your results. Maybe you'll teach us something, but I am not convinced.

I think what's most important is to remember that you have a highly modified leaf spring truck with big ass tires. It's not going to drive like a stock f250, or like a stock medium duty truck, or like a car. Improvements can be made, but remember it's not a car.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I wonder if this would fit around the 60 steering box/pitman and clear big tires... this is a stock width 60 front axle so tire clearance shouldn't be an issue. 2500 Dodge Ram sway bar. With tighter frame mounts should fit between the springs and frame (I have about 3" on mine) It's a 1.25" bar though so I think it would almost certainly have to be disconnected offroad with leafs.

View attachment 1996633

Hard to tell with the pic angle, but would that interfere with tires at full lock? I'm assuming not.

This location is what I had in my head originally, but then you brought up the pitman arm problem. This pic doesn't show a fj60 steering box

 

[workingdog]

Zero degrees is what the alignment shop said was the stock specification for an '84 LandCruiser (years ago) and they wouldn't add any caster to my rig. That's where that came from.

It's at 4 degrees now with the new axles. Didn't help much.

And everyone keeps telling me I'm expecting too much, like it's not driving like it's driving. I've got 37's on my FJ40 (on FJ60 axles) and it drives like a dream - tracks straight, no under steer, no over steer, no weird hopping at odd moments. I've had Excursions, Surburbans, commercial trucks, '53 Chevy's - none has driven as badly as this. I've driven enough vehicles in my life to know what a car should drive like. And this thing has always driven like crap. Before and after the SOA and the 37's and with and without front sway bar installed (so, before and after the new axles).

I'm finally putting the effort in to figure out why and just collecting information before I go to the considerable effort and expense of putting sway bars in the thing only to find out that wasn't the problem. Although I appreciate all the input and experience, no one here has actually said anything about why sway bars are the right solution - front or rear - or why the track bar isn't. Every time I bring something in from the outside world, it's like I accused Woody of being a communist - or of driving a Jeep.

I'm just trying to understand.

 

[cruisermatt]

Does your FJ40 have a panhard bar with leaf springs?

 

[cruisermatt]

Hard to tell with the pic angle, but would that interfere with tires at full lock? I'm assuming not.

This location is what I had in my head originally, but then you brought up the pitman arm problem. This pic doesn't show a fj60 steering box

He had 37’s and stock FJ60 axles and hubs initially, so I assume not. That’s a Ford steering box mounted inside the frame.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Zero degrees is what the alignment shop said was the stock specification for an '84 LandCruiser (years ago) and they wouldn't add any caster to my rig. That's where that came from.

It's at 4 degrees now with the new axles. Didn't help much.

And everyone keeps telling me I'm expecting too much, like it's not driving like it's driving. I've got 37's on my FJ40 (on FJ60 axles) and it drives like a dream - tracks straight, no under steer, no over steer, no weird hopping at odd moments. I've had Excursions, Surburbans, commercial trucks, '53 Chevy's - none has driven as badly as this. I've driven enough vehicles in my life to know what a car should drive like. And this thing has always driven like crap. Before and after the SOA and the 37's and with and without front sway bar installed (so, before and after the new axles).

I'm finally putting the effort in to figure out why and just collecting information before I go to the considerable effort and expense of putting sway bars in the thing only to find out that wasn't the problem. Although I appreciate all the input and experience, no one here has actually said anything about why sway bars are the right solution - front or rear - or why the track bar isn't. Every time I bring something in from the outside world, it's like I accused Woody of being a communist - or of driving a Jeep.

I'm just trying to understand.

I get worked up when people put up false information to (intentionally or unintentionally) mislead people, like "track bars are ALWAYS required with crossover steering" or "land cruisers shipped from the factory with zero caster". Your alignment shop was wrong. Perhaps they said that because that's what your truck was at, and adding caster on these trucks means putting caster shims in, which is not something they likely know about, or know how to do. Best guess.

I have been searching for 20 minutes and can't find the factory FJ60 alignment specs, but I did find this thread where lcwizard, who I consider a reputable and trustworthy source, says that the FJ60 stock caster number is ~+2*. He goes on to say "Anyone that says 0 caster is fine for on highway driving will find themselves on the wrong side of the debate table with every automotive engineer on the planet ". If I find the stock specs I'll put them up here.

Caster and pinion angle

I have a question about the caster and pinion angles. I am doing a spring over and shackle reversal on my FJ40. My question is with everything mocked up, weight on vehicle the angles are the same as when started. My castor angle is -3 and the pinion is 86, the same as the transfer case. I did...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[GLTHFJ60]

@workingdog, I'm starting to understand your dilemma. You started the thread about sway bars, but you really just want your truck to drive correctly. Let's go down that road.

Can you detail your suspension setup? Which springs, axles, shackle lengths and angles (pictures), then a pic of the alignment shop numbers?

With ~4* caster I wouldn't expect your truck to wander unless you have an issue with your steering, or with your tires. However, you can push that caster up to 5* or 6* if you do have wander with tight steering and good (not unevenly worn) tires.

In addition to wander, you have excessive body roll in corners? This can be caused by improper leaf spring geometery (spring eyes not level to earth for example) but can easily be caused by a a soft suspension with no sway bars.

Instead of moving this back to talking about sway bars, let's talk about your specific truck, issues you have, and how we can help fix it. My truck drives really, really well on the highway at 75-80mph all day long (on highway tires), with no death wobble, or wander, with no sway bar. We can get you there too.