Crankshaft Position Sensor

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Also research your Non-USA Dissy's electrical schematic and determine if that coil wire is needed or not. My 2F book says for USA only, so if you are running a non-USA Dissy, maybe it isn't needed and is the source of your problem. J

I missed this piece of information last night. I have a reproduction 2F Engine repair manual and typical of reproduction manuals I am missing entire sections throughout the manual. Can you tell me where in the 2F manual you read this? I will research based on your suggestion. Thanks.

EDIT: I did crawl under today to see if I could access the starter from the undercarriage but I still cannot get any type of a good angle.

Also I sent you a PM.
 
I have the Toyota 2F Engine Repair Manual, for USA & Canada, Pub No. 98126. The images come from the "Starting System" section which is chapter 7. Specifically Section 7-2, Figure 7-1 and Figure 7-2 for the starter images shown earlier. This chapter tells you how to completely dis-assemble the starter, and check it for specs. The Ignition System Circuits come from chapter 8, specifically Figure 8-1 ~ Figure 8-4 for the two main ignition systems used. Chapter 8 is all about the Disy and ignition coil. Shows how to dis-assemble the Dissy, and the specs to measure on the coil.

Hope that helps.
 
I have the Toyota 2F Engine Repair Manual, for USA & Canada, Pub No. 98126. The images come from the "Starting System" section which is chapter 7. Specifically Section 7-2, Figure 7-1 and Figure 7-2 for the starter images shown earlier. This chapter tells you how to completely dis-assemble the starter, and check it for specs. The Ignition System Circuits come from chapter 8, specifically Figure 8-1 ~ Figure 8-4 for the two main ignition systems used. Chapter 8 is all about the Disy and ignition coil. Shows how to dis-assemble the Dissy, and the specs to measure on the coil.

Hope that helps.

Wow my reproduction manual is terrible. I'm completely missing 7-1 to 7-6. I cannot see where in section 8 it states coil wire is needed or not for the non-US dizzy.
 
This is what my book shows for 2 coil and Dissy connections. But it is for USA and Canada.
Ignition #1.jpg
Ignition #2.jpg


The Ignition #2 image shows the wire from the starter going to the "+" terminal of the coil, and the ignition wire doing the same, but going through an external ballast resistor first. The theory being that as you engage the starter, you energize the coil once the starter motor is engaged and bypass the ballast resistor to give you a good extra starting voltage to the coil while the battery is being loaded down by the starter's current draw.

Once the engine fires up, the starter dis-engages and power to the coil comes from the ignition switch in the "run" position thru the ballast resistor to adjust for the extra voltage increase due to load drop from the starter and I believe also from the fact that the alternator is now up and charging the battery, so the voltage rises, so you have the ballast resistor to compensate for a slightly higher voltage on the battery "+" terminal line after the starter load is done, and the alternator is charging. This is also done on coils with external ballast resistors.

I believe Ignition #1 has a coil with an internal ballast resistor so it has only one wiring point and thus doesn't need the wire from the starter.

The Igniter pack on Ignition #2 was another option to improve the strength of the spark.
 
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"Some others suggest a timing issue, but the fact that you start up, and can drive for 1.25 hours isn't consistent with that idea. Timing doesn't vary like that, and while you can adjust it some with vacuum advance or retard on normal OEM Dissys, that wouldn't explain your symptoms."

My statement and still stand by that with the info we have. I suspect fuel but OP says "I have spark and fuel when the shut down occurs." So once again if it has fuel,compression and spark at the right time it will run.

Why do you feel that it is a starter problem when it turn over?
 
fj4013, reading between the lines here but i am suspicious of a vacuum leak, specifically on the intake manifold as you have stated (if i remember correctly) you have headers. This could cause the symptoms you describe. If I were you the first thing I would do is hook up a vacuum gauge and see if your vacuum is correct if it is then hook it up so you can see what happens when you drive /or have a problem.
 
"Some others suggest a timing issue, but the fact that you start up, and can drive for 1.25 hours isn't consistent with that idea. Timing doesn't vary like that, and while you can adjust it some with vacuum advance or retard on normal OEM Dissys, that wouldn't explain your symptoms."

My statement and still stand by that with the info we have. I suspect fuel but OP says "I have spark and fuel when the shut down occurs." So once again if it has fuel,compression and spark at the right time it will run.

Why do you feel that it is a starter problem when it turn over?

My theory is it is not the starter in and of itself. FJ4013 showed an image of his starter's Pull In Coil module and said the wire insulation was damaged, wire was exposed, and looked like it had melted, in one of his earlier descriptions on the wire that provides battery voltage to the coil once the starter Pull In Coil closes and connects battery power to the starter motor. Since current can flow in both directions, once the starter has done its job and the engine runs, the Pull in Coil module dis-engages the starter motor and disconnects the battery power from the starter motor. However the wire from the starter terminal to the coil is still energized at battery voltage, but is now being supplied from the coil's "+" terminal which is being fed via the ignition "run" position instead of from the closed starter contact.

If that exposed wire end can move, or has a frayed wire that can touch the grounded case of the Pull In Coil housing after the engine runs and heats up due to thermal expansion, or can arc to a grounded bolt head near it, that would instantly short out the hot side of the coil, thus killing his spark and shutting off the ignition system. If the arcing is intermittent that might explain the "sputtering" as it dies, it would also explain the melted insulation, and why after things cool down why it restarts. The whole thermal expansion thing might be a stretch, and I acknowledge that, but it explains his symptoms. He also mentioned in a PM that those connections on his starter have lots of corrosion and that wire connection is slightly loose, so arcing or shorting due to that is feasible.

He has since added some insulation coating to that area, though can't guarantee he fully covered the exposed wire due to space access issues, but he has since gone from the engine cutting off after 30 minutes to cutting off after 1 hour 15 minutes, and from a 15 minute delayed restart to a instant restart, so I think the problem is in this area. Again, not with the starter function by itself, but by a shorting out of the connection on the circuit from the starter's initial coil energize path to the coil.

I'm just proposing this as a theory, and his initial fix attempt seams to have improved performance and changed the situation such that I think that is the right path. I can't think of how timing would change as the engine runs to cause this. It could be a fuel issue, but how do you explain a consistent 30 minute shutdown after running with a 15 minute restart wait period before restart as a fuel issue? Also he initially had a sluggish starter spin up post shutdown which wouldn't be explained by fuel. A arc or short lowering the battery voltage would explain a sluggish starter performance if the short was due to thermal expansion causing that circuit to get close enough to ground to arc.

All theories are welcome, I just think the only thing that explains his symptoms is the coil being shorted out by a yet to be 100% verified path that seams to be temperature dependent. A energized wire at battery voltage that has exposed wire and melted insulation near vehicle ground on the starter case seams to explain his issues.
 
When you get the starter out cut off that bad end of the small wire where the burnt insulation and corrosion is at. Crimp on a new connector for reassembly, then you will know it is all good no shorts and no corrosion messing things up
 
fj40newmechanic. Yes I agree all theories are welcome. It is especially hard to diagnose problems that are on the net and not in your garage. You have gone to great lengths to help fj4013 and this is very commendable.

Trying not to sound offensive as I point out fj4013 says he has spark during shut down.
So back to the basics pretty sure compression is not the issue. That is 1/3 of the formula hopefully out of the way.
2/3 would be spark-Many theories but why? Just put a timing light on it then it too will hopefully be ruled out. If he puts a light on it and finds a problem then we know one of maybe many that needs fixed but which way to look or hopefully not look.
3/3 is fuel. Many problems might occur here and I feel if he starts with the basic he will find which direction to go. Put a vacuum gauge on it -cheap and easy to do and might give a direction to look.

fj4013 looking for clues-- has your 40 always done this or did it start when something was worked on? Were/how have you checked to know that it has fuel during shut down?
 
fj40newmechanic. Yes I agree all theories are welcome. It is especially hard to diagnose problems that are on the net and not in your garage. You have gone to great lengths to help fj4013 and this is very commendable.

Trying not to sound offensive as I point out fj4013 says he has spark during shut down.
So back to the basics pretty sure compression is not the issue. That is 1/3 of the formula hopefully out of the way.
2/3 would be spark-Many theories but why? Just put a timing light on it then it too will hopefully be ruled out. If he puts a light on it and finds a problem then we know one of maybe many that needs fixed but which way to look or hopefully not look.
3/3 is fuel. Many problems might occur here and I feel if he starts with the basic he will find which direction to go. Put a vacuum gauge on it -cheap and easy to do and might give a direction to look.

fj4013 looking for clues-- has your 40 always done this or did it start when something was worked on? Were/how have you checked to know that it has fuel during shut down?

Checked fuel by pulling the fuel line from carb and dumping it into a bottle when I turned the ignition on. Fuel flow for sure right at the carb.

I've owned the truck for a little over a year now and have had the issue from the beginning. Early on I thought it was the engine overheating and causing vapor lock because it still had the original radiator and the temp gauge ran high all the time. So I replaced it with an OEM radiator and that brought the temp gauge all the way down to just above the C. Now the engine temps are normal. But the engine cut off issue was still there. So I started chasing the problem by replacing parts that could be the culprit.

I suspect the engine shut off has always been an issue and the PO was just a dishonest person when he sold it to me and neglected to mention it. But whatever. It's my problem now. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will just have to keep chasing this down.
 
Maybe this is already mentioned. I’m thinking it might be caused by vacuum in the fuel tank? Try to get the fuel cap of when it stalled.
 
Checked fuel by pulling the fuel line from carb and dumping it into a bottle when I turned the ignition on. Fuel flow for sure right at the carb.

I've owned the truck for a little over a year now and have had the issue from the beginning. Early on I thought it was the engine overheating and causing vapor lock because it still had the original radiator and the temp gauge ran high all the time. So I replaced it with an OEM radiator and that brought the temp gauge all the way down to just above the C. Now the engine temps are normal. But the engine cut off issue was still there. So I started chasing the problem by replacing parts that could be the culprit.

I suspect the engine shut off has always been an issue and the PO was just a dishonest person when he sold it to me and neglected to mention it. But whatever. It's my problem now. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will just have to keep chasing this down.

Next time it quits get a video of it trying to start, as I think there is some confusion as to wether or not it is turning over normal when hot. You have said it has spark and fuel when it quits, not much else needed to run.

You could pour a SMALL amount of fuel down the carb when it doesnt start to see if that fires it up. Or look down the carb while turning it over to see if you have fuel going in. Have a fire extinguisher handy in case it backfires. If it fires then it is fuel delivery.

You mentioned you took it to a LC place to work on something, it might be time to bring it back and let them look at it.
 
I went back through the thread last night after putting my tools away for the day, and was trying to think about some of the other comments and theories, and still keep coming back to an electrical problem, but I'm biased as I am an Electrical Engineer during my day job. I was going through your photos, and spent some time looking at the back of your starter image and wanted to know what is that wire strand looking thing between the Pull In Coil electrical connection to the actual starter motor. See the edited image of your image below.

Starter Back image.JPG


If that is wire, is it connected to anything? That doesn't look like it belongs there.
 
I agree with emac in that dumping fuel through the carb when it won't run will provide instant info. If it hits then you know it is a fuel problem and if not then an ignition problem. Also as he said be careful-- don't have much fuel in your hand and pour it slow.
 
I am not at all familiar with your carb. Can you or another mudder tell me if the weber has a sight glass for fuel level.
 
I am not at all familiar with your carb. Can you or another mudder tell me if the weber has a sight glass for fuel level.

It's a Weber 38/38 and no it doesn't.

About 11 months ago one of the first things I did was to install an in-line glass fuel filter (the type they run on hot rods) right near the carb so I could get a quick visual of the fuel when the engine would shut down. The filter was half full of gas which is the level it pretty much stayed at all times. Maybe a little over half full.

EDIT: I pulled it off because I didn't like the idea of a piece of glass sitting right over a scorching hot header. I wheel some and all I kept thinking is one big bump and that glass filter breaks and instant fire.
 
It's a Weber 38/38 and no it doesn't.

About 11 months ago one of the first things I did was to install an in-line glass fuel filter (the type they run on hot rods) right near the carb so I could get a quick visual of the fuel when the engine would shut down. The filter was half full of gas which is the level it pretty much stayed at all times. Maybe a little over half full.

EDIT: I pulled it off because I didn't like the idea of a piece of glass sitting right over a scorching hot header. I wheel some and all I kept thinking is one big bump and that glass filter breaks and instant fire.

After it dies then won't start and you let it set does it then fire right up like the first time you start in the morning or do you have to crank the motor over for a few seconds before it starts?
First information we need is what happens when you pour gas in the cab while some one else is cranking it over.
 
After it dies then won't start and you let it set does it then fire right up like the first time you start in the morning or do you have to crank the motor over for a few seconds before it starts?
First information we need is what happens when you pour gas in the cab while some one else is cranking it over.

It starts up just fine after it sits. Usually on the first or second rev. It starts the same way every morning too. I pump the gas twice and it fires up immediately.

I haven't poured gas into the carb. I mentioned earlier I've pulled the fuel line right at the carb right at shut off and dumped it into a bottle and keyed on the truck and got fuel flow.
 

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