Small world...I will be sure to check it out next time we meet up for some SUSHI!!!
Cooling issues with CSF 2517 - what temp does your rig's A/C shut off? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rbdave
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80t0ylc wrote:
'Since when is "protect" not considered to be a benefit? Never said "enhance". I get it that there's more than just one type of antifreeze available, but we're talking 1FZ and 3FE here. Some with copper as their OEM radiator.'
My response was to the context of your post:
[ "current coolant is designed to benefit aluminum radiators. There is nothing in today's antifreeze that will help a copper system." ]
The two inferences here are: 1. There is basically one type of modern coolant and it is designed to 'benefit' aluminum radiators. 2. There is nothing in "today's" antifreeze that will 'help' a copper system.
Of course, this is patently untrue. ALL coolants have additives to help prevent corrosion, have PH buffers, seal conditioners, etc...with respect to the metal types they are meant for.
So.....IF you intend to define 'benefit' as 'protect' then by default the antifreeze formulated for copper radiators enjoy the same 'benefit' you tout for the aluminum, yes?
And I am not promoting the use of copper radiators over aluminum. You can search back through my posting history and nowhere will you find me suggesting that copper radiators are superior to aluminum ones in terms of cooling. What you WILL find is that I hold to the following:
1. Copper/Brass radiators can be (and are) sufficient to handle the heat loads for many folks in many areas.
2. Copper/Brass radiators can be more rugged in construction (all metal).
3. Copper/Brass radiators are extremely easy to repair, especially out on the trail.
4. Toyota (at one time) thought them perfectly serviceable in their vehicles.
Now....it is not my intent to get into some childish pissing match about radiators. I have made my position clear both now and in the past. There is a place for both.
For ME....I will not have any plastic on a radiator in my 80 series (after the seeing what my OEM did).
And for ME...the Copper/Brass radiator works just fine.
Ideally, I would like to have an ALL aluminum radiator...but until someone makes one that is a direct fit, has been proven and doesn't cost a lot...I will just wait.
'Since when is "protect" not considered to be a benefit? Never said "enhance". I get it that there's more than just one type of antifreeze available, but we're talking 1FZ and 3FE here. Some with copper as their OEM radiator.'
My response was to the context of your post:
[ "current coolant is designed to benefit aluminum radiators. There is nothing in today's antifreeze that will help a copper system." ]
The two inferences here are: 1. There is basically one type of modern coolant and it is designed to 'benefit' aluminum radiators. 2. There is nothing in "today's" antifreeze that will 'help' a copper system.
Of course, this is patently untrue. ALL coolants have additives to help prevent corrosion, have PH buffers, seal conditioners, etc...with respect to the metal types they are meant for.
So.....IF you intend to define 'benefit' as 'protect' then by default the antifreeze formulated for copper radiators enjoy the same 'benefit' you tout for the aluminum, yes?
And I am not promoting the use of copper radiators over aluminum. You can search back through my posting history and nowhere will you find me suggesting that copper radiators are superior to aluminum ones in terms of cooling. What you WILL find is that I hold to the following:
1. Copper/Brass radiators can be (and are) sufficient to handle the heat loads for many folks in many areas.
2. Copper/Brass radiators can be more rugged in construction (all metal).
3. Copper/Brass radiators are extremely easy to repair, especially out on the trail.
4. Toyota (at one time) thought them perfectly serviceable in their vehicles.
Now....it is not my intent to get into some childish pissing match about radiators. I have made my position clear both now and in the past. There is a place for both.
For ME....I will not have any plastic on a radiator in my 80 series (after the seeing what my OEM did).
And for ME...the Copper/Brass radiator works just fine.
Ideally, I would like to have an ALL aluminum radiator...but until someone makes one that is a direct fit, has been proven and doesn't cost a lot...I will just wait.
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Well, you know, I'm not interested in any contests either. I think I must have mis-understood Tools in some other thread. I went through a bunch in my research before deciding on the TYC. I'll keep looking to find out what sticks in my head about current antifreeze/coolants not helping copper radiator owners. My quick research so far is showing you are correct. Also, it's not the copper that corrodes, but the solder that's used for the joints in the construction.
I apologize and thanks for the correction, seriously. My intent was to help people decide, not put down copper radiators.
Well, you know, I'm not interested in any contests either. I think I must have mis-understood Tools in some other thread. I went through a bunch in my research before deciding on the TYC. I'll keep looking to find out what sticks in my head about current antifreeze/coolants not helping copper radiator owners. My quick research so far is showing you are correct. Also, it's not the copper that corrodes, but the solder that's used for the joints in the construction.
^^^^^
Exactly right. The least noble metal will corrode (act as an anode). And there is never any need for apologies where I am concerned. We are all here to contribute and learn. It is one of the things I enjoy most about this forum. I get to learn a lot from others...and I am ever the 'student' I can assure you.
Thank you for your contributions and civil discourse.
Flint.
Well, I found what led me to believe what I was thinking - I'm not going nutso
Comment highlighted in red:
It was from this thread and it was his only post in the thread. To be fair, I haven't asked him about this comment or what was his source to make the comment. Funny how sometimes your mind focuses on a minute point and you remember the idea, but can't remember where you heard it. I know now, thanks to Flint, that today's antifreeze/coolant aids both in corrosion protection. But, you still need to do the maintenance and not neglect your cooling sytem, even though you replaced the coolant "sometime" in the past.I don't know why anyone would run a brass radiator? Coolants that are now commonly available are formulated for aluminum, at the expense of brass. Aluminum radiators cool better, like all of them, significantly, have never seen a brass that comes close, including Toyota.
There is a TYC in my rig, it cools better than any that have been in it. Don't care about having it repaired, who still does that anyways? Our last, trusted shop went out of business, the last quote I got was $350. for a re-core. I see them as consumables, disposable, they are what ~$110, less than a proper tune-up or a couple of oil changes. Don't care about limping one along for 20yrs, or whatever, if it goes 5yrs, I will be happy, stick a new on in, new core, great cooling, good to go!
Anyway, I think we're all on the same page now.
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It's not the copper or brass, but the solder used in them, bloom and loss is more common than in the past. My understanding is, there are likely two causes, solder has changed and it's not used in any newer cooling systems, so coolant has less of the needed protection ingredients.
Correct. The least noble metal (in this case the lead/tin solder) will be anodic. As it degrades (corrodes) it will manifest as 'solder bloom'. Typically...it will be visually apparent. It shows up as a whitish looking substance on the radiator tubes (internal).
Changes in the lead/tin ratio would naturally have an effect on the prospects for corrosion. So IF this is something more common than in the past...then that might be one reason for it.
As concerns an earlier statement: "Coolants that are now commonly available are formulated for aluminum, at the expense of brass"
It is not untrue....just worded such that it benefits the point being made at the time.
By narrowing the argument to 'coolants commonly available' it seeks to disparage the Copper/Brass metals by denying them their proper coolant. Whether intended or not...this ties both hands behind the back of the copper/brass radiator. There ARE in fact proper coolants available that provide protection for C/B. It is incumbent upon the vehicle owner to know the difference.
So....IF you choose the wrong coolant (out of ignorance or availability) the statement above holds true and I find no fault with it.
I would wager that antifreeze/coolants are the most commonly neglected maintenance item on our vehicles.
(Fuel filters being a possible exception).
The reason for most troubles involving corrosion (not only in a radiator...but aluminum heads and other parts) is the break down of the anti-corrosion additives and improper PH level.
What is poorly understood...is the relationship between PH level and the propensity of metals to corrode when outside a certain PH window. So without going into the 'geekiness' of all that, just remember to change your coolant at prescribed intervals for sake of cooling performance and the life of the components involved.
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The statement was in a conversation about radiators, the aluminum and brass were meant to indicate a type of radiator, not the exact metals that would be effected.
Old school lead solder was good stuff. It's my understanding, in the push to reduce/eliminate lead from manufacturing, other metals are added to the mix that don't perform as well.
Quite possible. I don't keep up with such things and undoubtedly you have a better 'ear to the ground' than I do about what is or is not the current trend.
My comments are to be taken in the 'general' sense, I'm sure you can appreciate.
Thank you for the added information.
So, a question about cooling system maintenance intervals: I don't DD my 80, but there are some that do. So in, say, a 2 year period I might accumulate 5K miles where some one that DDs his rig will have a higher mileage, say 15K. Is this a time sensitive or usage (mileage) concern? In other words, if I'm not running the rig and it's just sitting, is the corrosion still active. Or is the corrosion being driven by the heating and cooling of vehicle usage?
Very interesting stuff i am readying on here..
Just out of curiosity...for those of us who has C/B radiators, which types of coolant works best with?? I understand most readily avalible coolant or over the counter coolant are meant for alum. radiators? What about toyota red??
Just out of curiosity...for those of us who has C/B radiators, which types of coolant works best with?? I understand most readily avalible coolant or over the counter coolant are meant for alum. radiators? What about toyota red??
Depends on what type of coolant you are using. But the short answer is...corrosion inhibitors degrade faster with use and particularly heat.
But it is important to know what type of inhibitor is being used in the coolant you have. Nearly all of the conventional coolants use an Ethylene Glycol 'base' so...it is only the additives that distinguish one from another. IF the coolant you use utilizes any of the inorganic oxides (Silicates, Borates and certain Phosphates) then they are being depleted faster with use than non-use. The reason being...they form an insulating/protective layer between the metal(s) and the coolant.
IF you are using any of the 'Long-Life' coolants that is a different technology and basically you should have no worries for many years UNLESS you dilute them beyond their intended base/water ratio (typically no more than 60% water).
IF your vehicle originally had Toyota 'Red' coolant then it would have been Silicate, borate, nitrite and amine free. It uses Organic Acid Technology.
There are all kinds of modern 'blends' available today and most will be sufficient for any of us that have the aluminum head and aluminum radiator.
For the guys with the older engines (cast iron head and Copper/Brass radiator) they might choose one of the more metal specific coolants.
For folks with a hybrid cooling system (Cast iron head w/aluminum radiator or Aluminum head with Copper/Brass radiator) a juggling act can occur. You must decide which components are most important to you. Not that some protection is not available when using any of the coolants...just that some are better than others.
For those of us with the 1FZ-FE engine...Toyota makes no specification beyond using a Ethylene Glycol base. But I can tell you that your main concern should be for the aluminum parts. The radiator itself is the least of your concerns..since they are relatively inexpensive and should be considered a 'wear part' anyway.
Simply changing out the coolant every 3 yrs. or 30,000 miles would go a long way toward maintaining the health of your cooling system. You can check your coolant (the glycol base anyway) using an inexpensive refractometer (less than $30.00) to accurately determine the mix ratio but little else. When glycol breaks down it becomes acidic which will lower your PH level. Also, glycol 'vapor' is corrosive..so we want to keep our radiators filled. Don't count on the overflow bottle to take care of this. Remove the cap and look in the radiator at regular intervals.
Thanks, Flint! I've been going through my maintenance log to see what exactly my intervals have been. I bought my 80 used and it was running the green coolant. Since then I've run only the Prestone green and recently, with the TYC, Prestone extended life. The TYC is the 1st aluminum radiator in this rig. The 2 previous, OEM & CSF, were C/B. Been trying to research the Prestone that I'm using to see what additives and contents are. So far all I've found is what they say on the container -"Contains ethylene glycol (107-21-1), diethylene glycol (111-46-6), and proprietary inhibitors." and their "patented Cor-Guard (TM) corrosion inhibitors" bragged about on the container...lol. I buy the concentrate & mix it 50 - 50 with filtered water.
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My Custom Ron Davis Alum. radiator just came over the weekend, guess it is time to tackle the cooling system, and while i am in there, i am replacing the WP and replacing my 200k mile old fan blade too. I will have some hard numbers to compare. My recent trip to Sequoia National Forest confirmed that my current brass/cooper CSF unit was indeed insufficient to cool my rig. I see temp as high as 220 climbing up the mountain with AC off and had to nurse the engine the rest of the way to keep it from overheating. Although my modded Aisin fan with 15k fluid was doing its job at high RPM to keep the temp stable, i am convinced that the CSF is insufficient to dissipate heat at a rate fast enough to keep my rig running cool, especially with larger tires and armor. I will be doing another similar trip in a couple months with some hard numbers to compare.
-M
-M
I'm curious to see how the install goes .It looks dimensionally different from a stock radiator.
@Marco Lau - Ron Davis makes a radiator bueatiful enought to frame and hang on the wall! But, what are the two brackets hanging from the lower tank for??
Once i pull the CSF unit out, i will have a hard side by side comparison. I believe the RD is advertised as a upgrade direct OEM fitment replacement, but i do believe it is slightly thicker than the CSF?
good question. I didn't see those brackets on my CSF, but searching google yields a few radiator with those brackets in place also. I hope they are not in the way of things, but most likely fine as there are lots of room behind and near the bottom of the radiator...
i found these pictures on MUD of a stock radiator, and the brackets are visible from the pic....hmm
Here is a side by side comparison of a stocker vs RD. Everything looks spot on....
