Cooling issues with CSF 2517 - what temp does your rig's A/C shut off?

[Fj81]

You have "brass" to ask that after all of this

I work in the trucking industry, so I have a tendency to prefer all metal radiators since they can be cleaned up and resealed. I dont mind trying one out to see if they hold up well. If it doesnt work out I will get a TYC or some other thing. A Ron Davis aluminum one would be nice, but I would imagine they are not an off the shelf Item so the lead time must be long to get one.

 

[Bambusiero]

@flintknapper - I know what you mean about other things to do.
Me too. Major work deadline coming soon. Other cars with emissions issues and registration coming up... and I really should just move on, but I just can't shake it quite yet.
Stay tuned. Working on some potentially interesting data on the CSF...not sure when I can sneak it in between the must do list.

 

[Bambusiero]

Theorizing - Things Manufacturing defects that could potentially reduce radiator performance, but could not be seen, when everything looks and acts OK.

1) Water tube internal ripples, spirals, bumps, texture, etc.
Smooth tubes have smoother flow and a thicker fluid boundary layer, which acts as an insulator, reducing heat transfer.
High performance heat exchangers have special tube designs that increase turbulence, reducing boundary layer thickness.
Heat transfer is improved, which is the goal, although pumping loss (friction/pressure drop) is increased.
Have no idea if this type of sophistication is done for automotive radiators.
A manufacturing line could have smooth tubes substituted for rippled tubes, and it would easily go un-noticed.
A production line manager under pressure to hit quota might make a temporary substitution.
You would have to cut one apart to tell, and know what to look for.

2) Slitted fins, back and forth fin twists, etc.
Same boundary layer thing on the air side.
Same manufacturing issues.
You can just look for this one.

3) Fin to tube solder / braze material.
This is reaching a bit...
It's possible for solder/braze alloy to change from it's normal characteristics to something unexpected.
Due to freeze speed and crystallization/separation of alloy components, intermetalic compound formation, thermal conductivity changes.
Seasonal weather/ temperature in the factory could cause undetected quality variation.
It would take an advanced material science lab and known good / bad samples to spot this (and $$$$).

4) Black paint too thick, adding insulation.
Should be visible, really. Thick and drippy looking, to make a difference.

5) Solder clogged tubes.
Good old fashioned sloppy manufacturing. This is the standby accusation. Made in China, Vietnam, etc.
Would be observable by markedly reduced flow rate.
Would be observable by IR thermographic image.

My CSF has higher flow rate than both aluminum ones, which could be said to correlate with smoother tubes, as in defect type 1) above?

What else is there to a radiator, I ask again?

 

[-Spike-]

What else is there to a radiator, I ask again?

One observation is that the cores on the TYC are thicker, which may be a contributing factor. In fact, I believe they only have 2 cores, but outperform (and may be thicker than) 3 core rads. Also, the fins have a different design, either more or less dense (I can't remember which, @Tools R Us would know/remember more about all of this). Bottom line, it's not only a change of material, it's a different design on the TYC vs. copper, and the design seems to make the TYC perform better than other aluminum/plastic rads as well, such as the Denso, Koyo, and Toyorads.

 

[Bambusiero]

@-Spike- agree with all that you said.
I should have stated explicitly - theorizing on how this particular CSF, and some others out there, might be actually defective, as compared to those CSFs that perform adequately. As @flintknapper asserts.

 

[-Spike-]

@-Spike- agree with all that you said.
I should have stated explicitly - theorizing on how this particular CSF, and some others out there, might be actually defective, as compared to those CSFs that perform adequately. As @flintknapper asserts.

I'm assuming the CSF's that perform well are not taxed as much as the CSF's that are not, and that most people don't obsess over the temps enough to notice a difference. Around here, all the CSF's that have been monitored closely have performed essentially the same way- adequately, but not exceptionally.

 

[Bambusiero]

Hi, just replaced my stock radiator in my 1996 series 80, 135,350 miles. I took the rig on a common trip I go on, and I was overheating pretty rapidly on elevation climbs.

On the road, or off, after about 3000 feet of climbing, even with limiting rpm's to under 2000, I would still hit 220 on the scan gauge when the A/C would turn off, and overheat at about 237 when I pulled over to idle to cool down.

Even with the A/C off, it will overheat after about 3-4000 of climbing at normal grades. No leaks, no fluid loss, except from the overflow tank.

Any advice someone can throw my way?

Thanks, !!

You never did say what kind of replacement radiator you installed for these results?
Your story, BTW, is pretty much my story. I reacted to the cracked plastic tank by retreating to metal. Bad decision for me.

 

[rbdave]

Hi all,

Thank you very much for all the advice given. Loads of info, thanks. After more troubleshooting, and stiffening the silicone in the fan clutch, we finally replaced with a Koyo Aluminum core radiator.

Now, the truck is totally back to normal. Still, it baffles me, why the copper core rad was running 20 degrees hotter, unless there was an undetectable crack or hole.

Anyway, I am back to climbing anything while enjoying no more than 206 on the scan gauge.

Thanks everyone !

 

[Marco Lau]

UPDATE:
Since my stock radiator blew @ 220k on a recent trip to Zion, which left me no choice but to order a CSF unit in order to get my rig on the road again. Since then i have replaced new fan clutch with 15k fluid, new thermostat, new fan shroud with foam seal, new cap., flushed coolant. I have since wheeled the rig in 95+ weather and highway hill climbs with AC on full blast and had experienced engine temp over 220 via my koso temp gauge. My most recent wheeling trip again confirmed that my newish all metal brass radiator is in fact unable to cool the engine fast enough at load plus AC running. Highway driving at 65mph plus with AC on and flat ground, i see my coolant temp @ 200-205, on longer hill climbs, it easily gets up to 215-220, and stock gauge starts to rise above mid level.....In my book, this is unacceptable as with my stock radiator, and stock fan clutch, i had never seen temp gets above 210 even on long hill climbs @ 4K rpm for extended period of time. At this rate, i am no longer comfortable with my engine temp w/ AC on full blast, and which lead me to believe that the all metal brass radiator is indeed unable to keep up with the cooling, and border line insufficient. I have bite the bullet and have an all custom alum. radiator in order from a reputable company. I hope my temp will stay below 210 without constantly worrying when my engine will overheat. I will report soon when my alum. core 2 row arrived and installed with some numbers back to report......

 

[Bambusiero]

Well, @Marco Lau , not to , but you could "bite the bullet" to the tune of 130 bucks or so and get the same performance that I have described herein. I think my TYC order showed up at the door in 4 days or so.

BTW, your CSF performance numbers are pretty much a match with mine, point by point.

 

[Marco Lau]

Well, @Marco Lau , not to , but you could "bite the bullet" to the tune of 130 bucks or so and get the same performance that I have described herein. I think my TYC order showed up at the door in 4 days or so.

Well, @Marco Lau , not to , but you could "bite the bullet" to the tune of 130 bucks or so and get the same performance that I have described herein. I think my TYC order showed up at the door in 4 days or so.

I have a 3FE. I don't think your TYC will fit??

 

[Bambusiero]

Oh - gotcha. I couldn't say.

 

[Tools R Us]

I have a 3FE. ...

Didn't know a 3FE was capable of making enough HP to cause significant heat?

Have you confirmed that the thermostat is correctly installed, with both gaskets? The upper, o-ring type gasket is commonly left off, causing some coolant to bypass the radiator. This will cause inconsistent cooling, including running hot when stressed.

 

[Marco Lau]

Both gasket and o ring installed correctly, I made sure of that. Btw, I took a good look at both radiators for the 1fz-fe vs 3fe.. other than the filler neck position on the top tank, everything else look identical. I wonder if it will fit the 3fe...

 

[80t0ylc]

.................
On the other hand...to up the ante, I could buy a TYC and install it and see if I get the same generous gains you have been fortunate to experience. It would be great if I did. I originally bought my 2517 for its all metal construction. It has been adequate for me under my conditions so I've been happy with it.

But I AM very curious about all of this. So part of me also wants to run a test on all three........

If I can add my $.02 to this thread, since I just noticed & read through the last couple of pages. I replaced my '94 OEM copper/plastic radiator back around March of 2011 because the plastic seam had ruptured. Well, I chose the CSF 2517 because it was all metal, thinking, I wouldn't have to see that problem again. I had just replaced my beloved black hub fan clutch because it had seized, with a new blue hub. Engine temps were not an issue until spring rolled around and then with my modified OEM gauge, it would run a needle width over half consistantly unless there was any incline or load involved, then it would run all the way up to the bottom of the red, depending on the duration of the incline. Then starting last summer, since I started running 35s, if ambient temps were 95+, if I ran A/C at highway speeds 65+, the gauge would do it's climbing trick again. Believing the problem to be the inferior (to my black hub) performance of the blue hub, I lived with the higher temps and butt pucker on grades in the summer time. I even, this spring, got a Landtank modified blue hub, thinking my tuning of my 1st blue hub might be the issue. I noticed a slight improvement, until it got warmer and I needed A/C. So I b**ched about it in another thread and Spike suggested the TYC from his and other AZ 80 owners experience. At 1st, I resisted, because of my dislike of plastic tanks. Well, I decided that what the hell could I lose, to just give the TYC a try. I was doing a cooling system flush and maintenance anyway - good time to try it. Well I ordered the TYC and installed it, all the while fantasizing that the temp gauge would be lower, maybe back to normal - below halfway, maybe....Well, that's exactly what it reads now. 1-2 needle widths under half, normally and climbs to maybe, 2 widths above half climbing grades with the A/C on. Color me convinced - I can't see going back to copper. Another thing to think about that Tools mentioned, current coolant is designed to benefit aluminum radiators. There is nothing in today's antifreeze that will help a copper system. No manufacturers are putting copper radiators in their rigs any more.

 

[Marco Lau]

If I can add my $.02 to this thread, since I just noticed & read through the last couple of pages. I replaced my '94 OEM copper/plastic radiator back around March of 2011 because the plastic seam had ruptured. Well, I chose the CSF 2517 because it was all metal, thinking, I wouldn't have to see that problem again. I had just replaced my beloved black hub fan clutch because it had seized, with a new blue hub. Engine temps were not an issue until spring rolled around and then with my modified OEM gauge, it would run a needle width over half consistantly unless there was any incline or load involved, then it would run all the way up to the bottom of the red, depending on the duration of the incline. Then starting last summer, since I started running 35s, if ambient temps were 95+, if I ran A/C at highway speeds 65+, the gauge would do it's climbing trick again. Believing the problem to be the inferior (to my black hub) performance of the blue hub, I lived with the higher temps and butt pucker on grades in the summer time. I even, this spring, got a Landtank modified blue hub, thinking my tuning of my 1st blue hub my be the issue. I noticed a slight improvement, until it got warmer and I needed A/C. So I b**ched about it in another thread and Spike suggested the TYC from his and other AZ 80 owners experience. At 1st, I resisted, because of my dislike of plastic tanks. Well, I decided that what the hell could I lose, to just give the TYC a try. I was doing a cooling system flush and maintenance anyway - good time to try it. Well I ordered the TYC and installed it, all the while fantasizing that the temp gauge would be lower, maybe back to normal - below halfway, maybe....Well, that's exactly what it reads now. 1-2 needle widths under half, normally and climbs to maybe, 2 widths above half climbing grades with the A/C on. Color me convinced - I can't see going back to copper. Another thing to think about that Tools mentioned, current coolant is designed to benefit aluminum radiators. There is nothing in today's antifreeze that will help a copper system. No manufacturers are putting copper radiators in their rigs any more.

Tom,
That is good to know. My CSF brass/copper runs OK on highway above 65 with AC on, stays right at 200-205, but with any engine load on uphill for over a duration of time maintaining speed. the temp deteriorates rapidly and will hit 215-220 with AC on, on top of that, the recovery rate for the coolant is not what i expected, and normally takes a good 10 mins or so on downhill for me to nurse the temp back down to normall, which is a good indicator that the radiator is not able to shed the engine temp sufficiently. Unfortunately, there are no good replacement alum. unit for the 3-FE, so i bite the bullet and ordered a Ron Davis custom all alum. radiator....very pricey, but i cannot afford to run another ebay or no name brand in hope that my engine temp will drop back to normal back to stock form. We will see with some real time numbers to report back

 

[Tools R Us]

... Btw, I took a good look at both radiators for the 1fz-fe vs 3fe.. other than the filler neck position on the top tank, everything else look identical. I wonder if it will fit the 3fe...

It has been done, they physically fit, bolt in. The 3FE doesn't use the steam tube, so that would need to be plugged and the lower hose is larger in the 1FZ, would need to be adapted.

 

[80t0ylc]

Tom,
That is good to know. My CSF brass/copper runs OK on highway above 65 with AC on, stays right at 200-205, but with any engine load on uphill for over a duration of time maintaining speed. the temp deteriorates rapidly and will hit 215-220 with AC on, on top of that, the recovery rate for the coolant is not what i expected, and normally takes a good 10 mins or so on downhill for me to nurse the temp back down to normall, which is a good indicator that the radiator is not able to shed the engine temp sufficiently. Unfortunately, there are no good replacement alum. unit for the 3-FE, so i bite the bullet and ordered a Ron Davis custom all alum. radiator....very pricey, but i cannot afford to run another ebay or no name brand in hope that my engine temp will drop back to normal back to stock form. We will see with some real time numbers to report back

If it were me with a 3FE, I'd listen to Tools:

It has been done, they physically fit, bolt in. The 3FE doesn't use the steam tube, so that would need to be plugged and the lower hose is larger in the 1FZ, would need to be adapted.

Sounds like the TYC will physically fit with out a problem. Just need to adapt the lower hose & plug the steam tube. Can't beat the price ,either.

 

[Marco Lau]

i am contemplating....can't go wrong with a $200 price tag...what size diameter lower tube, i know the 3-FE is a 38mm ID or 1.5" lower.

thanks guys

 

[Tools R Us]

i am contemplating....can't go wrong with a $200 price tag...what size diameter lower tube, i know the 3-FE is a 38mm ID or 1.5" lower.

thanks guys

1-5/8"?

Not a big fan of adapting things, but the options for the 3FE are slim, not likely to get better?