Compiling/comparing lift and caster data

[OGBeno]

Got to stop by and say hi to Dave and Patrick from the Delta team in Boise this morning...

Awesome operation and their products are very impressive in person. Got to see some cool machines and some very cool ideas these guys have.

Top notch guys. Thanks for having me Dave and Patrick. Looking forward to a rear bumper in the future.

 

[Delta VS]

Got to stop by and say hi to Dave and Patrick from the Delta team in Boise this morning...

Awesome operation and their products are very impressive in person. Got to see some cool machines and some very cool ideas these guys have.

Top notch guys. Thanks for having me Dave and Patrick. Looking forward to a rear bumper in the future.

View attachment 2402021View attachment 2402022

Thank YOU for taking the time to visit, was great to put a face with the name. Look forward to the next time!

 

[BILT4ME]

The data can be downloaded by anyone and edited/messes with offline (at least that’s how I meant to set it up, not sure if I was successful). I can go in and edit or anybody who is an admin can, but the idea is it doesn’t get edited, just added to. You add data by filling out the google form link it the first post and that automatically enters the data into the spreadsheet. There is no limit to the number of entries you can provide.

When I do my measurements and have the alignment numbers checked, do I do it with which of the following:
1) Unloaded: Remove all non-factory and non-permanently attached equipment from the truck (tools, winch supplies, extra water, extra fuel cans, refrigerator, etc.
2) Commonly loaded: Leave all my daily stuff in the truck such as tools, drawers, winching supplies, jumper cables, etc.
3) Camping Trip Loaded: Includes my RTT, refrigerator, extra fuel, extra water, sleeping bags, cooking supplies, kitchen sink, etc.
4) Full of Fuel
5) However I arrived on fuel level
6) Low on fuel

I have looked for any references to this information before I do all my numbers, and have come up empty. I'm thinking other have asked this question before. When manufacturers set their data it is at "curb weight" which is full of fuel, no driver, no passengers, full of fluids, ready to drive down the road.

I DD my truck (15K-20K miles/ yr) and I vary from nearly empty to carrying 1200 LB of stuff to adding a wheelchair lift and a 400 LB wheelchair on the back. I have fairly extreme levels of loading and I want to set it up "as it should be".

I think my typical day is about 500 LB of tools and "stuff" and a 125LB rack on the hitch.
The extreme would be all my daily stuff plus another 500 LB of people, plus 400 LB wheelchair, plus about another 500 LB of gear.

The truck drives very differently in each of these scenarios. I had my truck aligned in 2014 after a lot of work I did and installed new tires. Unfortunately, the shop's machine would not do printouts for some reason, so I have no data from that point.
I have since added an OME lift (I'll detail that later) and now I'm seeing tire wear and it is very "darty" on the road. Yes, I know why. I am planning on getting an alignment check done, then ordering the appropriate fix for MY truck based on that information whether it is rear panhard bracket, front caster plates or replacement Delta Vs front arms. I want my truck to drive like it used to and I know it is just more $$$ and time to get there. I just want to do it once.

 

[voodu3]

@BILT4ME I went through the same thing trying to get mine sorted to drive like it should. As far as weight in the truck for the alignment I would go with however you have it 90% of the time and get your caster number and height measurements with that as it sits. Then you can get a starting point before you make changes. Measuring the pan hard bracket height was key for me because I was getting a lot more lift out of my springs than spec’d. All of my info is in the spreadsheet from start to current. If you want I’ll be glad to send it to for reference.

 

[Delta VS]

When I do my measurements and have the alignment numbers checked, do I do it with which of the following:
1) Unloaded: Remove all non-factory and non-permanently attached equipment from the truck (tools, winch supplies, extra water, extra fuel cans, refrigerator, etc.
2) Commonly loaded: Leave all my daily stuff in the truck such as tools, drawers, winching supplies, jumper cables, etc.
3) Camping Trip Loaded: Includes my RTT, refrigerator, extra fuel, extra water, sleeping bags, cooking supplies, kitchen sink, etc.
4) Full of Fuel
5) However I arrived on fuel level
6) Low on fuel

I have looked for any references to this information before I do all my numbers, and have come up empty. I'm thinking other have asked this question before. When manufacturers set their data it is at "curb weight" which is full of fuel, no driver, no passengers, full of fluids, ready to drive down the road.

I DD my truck (15K-20K miles/ yr) and I vary from nearly empty to carrying 1200 LB of stuff to adding a wheelchair lift and a 400 LB wheelchair on the back. I have fairly extreme levels of loading and I want to set it up "as it should be".

I think my typical day is about 500 LB of tools and "stuff" and a 125LB rack on the hitch.
The extreme would be all my daily stuff plus another 500 LB of people, plus 400 LB wheelchair, plus about another 500 LB of gear.

The truck drives very differently in each of these scenarios. I had my truck aligned in 2014 after a lot of work I did and installed new tires. Unfortunately, the shop's machine would not do printouts for some reason, so I have no data from that point.
I have since added an OME lift (I'll detail that later) and now I'm seeing tire wear and it is very "darty" on the road. Yes, I know why. I am planning on getting an alignment check done, then ordering the appropriate fix for MY truck based on that information whether it is rear panhard bracket, front caster plates or replacement Delta Vs front arms. I want my truck to drive like it used to and I know it is just more $$$ and time to get there. I just want to do it once.

Short answer: “yes”

Long answer: however you drive the rig most of the time. Do you always have a full tank of gas? Etc. What’s your “average” loadout? If you want it to handle at its max potential with any load, you’re going to need to look at some kind of load sensing airbag setup or something like that, or pick one load that will cover everything for you, most of the time. What you describe is far too much to expect perfect performance from, across the spectrum with one setup. Simple airbags inside the springs might help greatly with a widely variable load like that.

 

[BILT4ME]

Short answer: “yes”

Long answer: however you drive the rig most of the time. Do you always have a full tank of gas? Etc. What’s your “average” loadout? If you want it to handle at its max potential with any load, you’re going to need to look at some kind of load sensing airbag setup or something like that, or pick one load that will cover everything for you, most of the time. What you describe is far too much to expect perfect performance from, across the spectrum with one setup. Simple airbags inside the springs might help greatly with a widely variable load like that.

Thank you. You have answered my question as "What’s your “average” loadout?"

I'll go with that.

And we should probably consider a half tank of gas because these things drink the gas, so we're rarely on full, but usually closer to empty......

And, yes, I already have airbags and I run the OME heavies for springs front and rear. So, when I'm unloaded, there is serious stinkbug.
When "regularly" loaded, it's close to even.
When heavily loaded, the airbags are pumped up and it still sags in the rear, as expected.

I wanted to ask this question not only for me, but for others who don't realize they should think about this because loading of the vehicle affects how it steers not only due to tire flex, but also the caster and how the toe-in "changes" due to the horizontal plane change (I may not be stating that correctly but it makes sense to me.)

 

[dsmud4u]

I have a previous thread documenting my castor issues here:

Not enough caster...ICON stage 3 kit/ 1 year Review

forum.ih8mud.com

However I’ll shorten it here.

Icon stage 3, 3” lift.

The truck has got about 180lbs up front. Out back probably another 650lbs to 750lbs plus a 100lb rack.

After lift and sullied castor corrected bushings from Icon my castor was at 0. After the 4” Delta VS it was 3.2-3.4.

I yielded about 3.5” in the front and have a 30mm spacer out back to compensate. The truck is with in about 1/4 same height all the way around.

I also corrected the length in the rear with some adjustable lower arms from Trail Tailor. The truck still has some front drive-line vibes under very light load to no load beginning at 50mph and progressively gets worst to 75mph.

 

[80t0ylc]

@Delta VS Greetings Dave & Patrick! I've been reading through this thread and the Delta VS Radius Arms thread and after 16 yrs of having my OME 2.5" lift installed with the OME CC bushings (considered sufficient back then), I'm interested in your DVS Radius Arms. I have some questions, though. From the data you've collected it appears the stock panhard bolt height difference is somewhere between .75" and 1.25" front and .75" and 1.00" rear. After measuring mine, front difference is 2.25" and the rear is 2.375". I have no idea what the castor is, but I've noticed since running 35" tires (315/75/16) that it seems to wander on pavement now, which it didn't with, first the 31" and then the 33" tires I ran before. I have not noticed any accelerated tire wear or serious handling problems with the 35's, though. I noticed in reading the threads that a few 2.5" lift owners went with the 4" lift DVS radius arms, instead of the 2", after being recommended by you guys. What would be the reason(s) to do that? My '94 is setup for overlanding and I tow a squaredrop off road trailer. I'm running the OME: 850 front & 863 rear springs and recently installed AirLift air bags in the rear to help with sag from my 24 gallon LRA aux fuel tank and trailer tongue weight. Lots of armor, a drawer kit & fridge, so the 80 weighs in around 6900 lbs fueled up. It's been a work in progress, so all the extras were not added at the same time. (Link for my list of mods and a few pics in my sig.) Do you need the castor setting or is this enough info to recommend which arms to go with? The reason I'm asking is I live in a small rural town in eastern Oregon and alignment shops are over an hour's drive away. Thanks for any guidance you can provide!
Edit: Correct OEM lift to OME lift - damn dislexia

 

[sxp]

@80t0ylc, I have the 4" arms. Dave suggested that I don't go with 4" arms on my 2.5" lift. His reason was that it would be more caster than stock. I did provide him with my caster numbers as a reference though. I still went with 4" arms since I have increased my lift by swapping out my coils to 3" Dobinsons pieces. My plan was to always go with more lift up front.

As for your wandering issues, bigger tires sometimes require more toe to stay straight. This could be why you didn't notice the issue with your smaller tires. Your caster could also be out of wack, but you won't know until you have it checked.

 

[80t0ylc]

@80t0ylc, I have the 4" arms. Dave suggested that I don't go with 4" arms on my 2.5" lift. His reason was that it would be more caster than stock. I did provide him with my caster numbers as a reference though. I still went with 4" arms since I have increased my lift by swapping out my coils to 3" Dobinsons pieces. My plan was to always go with more lift up front.

As for your wandering issues, bigger tires sometimes require more toe to stay straight. This could be why you didn't notice the issue with your smaller tires. Your caster could also be out of wack, but you won't know until you have it checked.

Thanks for your input! It makes sense to get it checked out at an alignment shop to see what I'm dealing with for both castor & toe in.

 

[Delta VS]

@Delta VS Greetings Dave & Patrick! I've been reading through this thread and the Delta VS Radius Arms thread and after 16 yrs of having my OEM 2.5" lift installed with the OME CC bushings (considered sufficient back then), I'm interested in your DVS Radius Arms. I have some questions, though. From the data you've collected it appears the stock panhard bolt height difference is somewhere between .75" and 1.25" front and .75" and 1.00" rear. After measuring mine, front difference is 2.25" and the rear is 2.375". I have no idea what the castor is, but I've noticed since running 35" tires (315/75/16) that it seems to wander on pavement now, which it didn't with, first the 31" and then the 33" tires I ran before. I have not noticed any accelerated tire wear or serious handling problems with the 35's, though. I noticed in reading the threads that a few 2.5" lift owners went with the 4" lift DVS radius arms, instead of the 2", after being recommended by you guys. What would be the reason(s) to do that? My '94 is setup for overlanding and I tow a squaredrop off road trailer. I'm running the OME: 850 front & 863 rear springs and recently installed AirLift air bags in the rear to help with sag from my 24 gallon LRA aux fuel tank and trailer tongue weight. Lots of armor, a drawer kit & fridge, so the 80 weighs in around 6900 lbs fueled up. It's been a work in progress, so all the extras were not added at the same time. (Link for my list of mods and a few pics in my sig.) Do you need the castor setting or is this enough info to recommend which arms to go with? The reason I'm asking is I live in a small rural town in eastern Oregon and alignment shops are over an hour's drive away. Thanks for any guidance you can provide!

TO BE CLEAR: I only recommend staying within factory spec of 2-4* of caster. Many folks choose to go with the arms that give them a little extra caster though, since a little too little gives a typically "squirrelly" drive feel and a little extra caster makes things more stable. There are definitely issues to be had with adding extra caster on certain rigs, where they end up with some driveline vibrations. Not enough data to have a solid idea when that happens unfortunately, typically thought of to happen when you are in the 4"+ of lift range.

This is why actual, uncorrected, caster numbers are so helpful in the decision making process. Every time we get the caster checked on vehicles we are working on, we also take digital angle gauge measurements in a few places. This is building up a table of how those measurements correlate to actual caster numbers. Once we are confident in those numbers (can accurately predict what the caster readings are going to come back with), we will provide a table so folks don't have to go get caster checked.

 

[80t0ylc]

TO BE CLEAR: I only recommend staying within factory spec of 2-4* of caster. Many folks choose to go with the arms that give them a little extra caster though, since a little too little gives a typically "squirrelly" drive feel and a little extra caster makes things more stable. There are definitely issues to be had with adding extra caster on certain rigs, where they end up with some driveline vibrations. Not enough data to have a solid idea when that happens unfortunately, typically thought of to happen when you are in the 4"+ of lift range.

This is why actual, uncorrected, caster numbers are so helpful in the decision making process. Every time we get the caster checked on vehicles we are working on, we also take digital angle gauge measurements in a few places. This is building up a table of how those measurements correlate to actual caster numbers. Once we are confident in those numbers (can accurately predict what the caster readings are going to come back with), we will provide a table so folks don't have to go get caster checked.

Thanks for your reply! So, what I get is that you're shooting for being able to predict caster by the difference in an 80's panhard bolts, but you don't yet have enough data for that to be reliable. I checked out the links provided for the table document and the form to add my rig to that document, before my previous questions, but did not, since I didn't have caster numbers. Are you still accepting new data from this source? If so, I'll add mine after I get the caster numbers.

 

[Delta VS]

Thanks for your reply! So, what I get is that you're shooting for being able to predict caster by the difference in an 80's panhard bolts, but you don't yet have enough data for that to be reliable. I checked out the links provided for the table document and the form to add my rig to that document, before my previous questions, but did not, since I didn't have caster numbers. Are you still accepting new data from this source? If so, I'll add mine after I get the caster numbers.

Oh for sure! That google sheet is and will be open for as long as google exists. My intention is that the data is to be used by anybody who would benefit from it.

 

[80t0ylc]

Oh for sure! That google sheet is and will be open for as long as google exists. My intention is that the data is to be used by anybody who would benefit from it.

Good talking with ya, Dave! Order placed for both 2" radius arms with bushings and hdwe & panhard bracket. As I mentioned in our phone conversation, my visit to Les Schwab showed this was where my '94 is:

Edit: this data is on your document and I'll update after panhard & radius arms are installed.

 

[80t0ylc]

@Delta VS - I messed up bad reading the alignment numbers! Thank you so much for emailing me Dave to let me know! It is amazing what your mind will do when you assume something in advance. I looked at the the data printout that shows in my previous post, and saw the red on both sides in the top blocks and saw "caster" when it plainly says "camber" for the 0.1* and 0.2* numbers. I was expecting caster to be out, so I glossed over it. I'll update the data sheet for my numbers and call you in the a.m. and change my order. I'll start with the panhard bracket and see how it goes.

This is a good example of how the Delta team does honest business and cares about the satisfaction of their customers. The Mud 80 owners are blessed to have them as a resource! I hope someone reading this post that's "on the fence" about placing an order will realize these guys care as much about you as the quality of their products!

 

[GoPats]

Contributing.

 

[uscmas412]

Just had new wild peak AT4s put on in 315/75/R16. Here’s the alignment with OME caster bushings on the OME springs. I’m showing 3” of lift by Deltas preferred method.

I’ll post up after my 4” Delta arms are installed.

 

[uscmas412]

Here's the result with 4" radius arms installed.

 

[florida95fzj]

Lots of red.

OME 2850 and 2863 for a 2" gain. Need to figure out caster correction next. No adjustments were done but they said it settled on the rack, giving me two different results. Not exactly sure what to trust but at least the caster was the same both times.

 

[flnalrt]

Wanted to provide some information from a Dobinson lift. 1996 fzj80 with 1hd-ft engine swap. Dobinson C97-144VT front and C97-145VT rear. MRA shocks. Caster numbers before Delta -3.2 and -2.1 and I believe the truck had OME caster correction bushings. Decided on 5L Delta arms and now have caster numbers of 3.4 and 4.3.