"Clicking" sound when slow turning - bearings?

[bloc]

"a while" as in go on a 400 mile camping trip? are there safeties in place that would prevent the wheel from falling off?

...looks like this might be a good time to upgrade to some beef brakes.

Cruiser outfitters might have some input, including how long these last, but on most cars I’ve had unit bearings fail you just start to get a rumble and possibly a little slack which in extreme cases can lead to a mushy brake pedal. Typically on those you’d have tons of warning though. Thing is, those usually weren’t a click/creak as much as that rumble I mentioned.
I doubt the whole thing is just going to come loose though. Toyota should be designing some kind of safety system into it so a wear&tear failure doesn’t result in catastrophic loss of control.

 

[linuxgod]

I'd be surprised if it's the wheel bearings as others have noted they will growl as they go bad.

Regarding front bearings, here's the Toyota procedure on how to check them:

1. OPEN STABILIZER CONTROL WITH ACCUMULATOR HOUSING SHUTTER VALVE

2. REMOVE FRONT WHEEL

3. DISCONNECT FRONT DISC BRAKE CALIPER ASSEMBLY LH

4. REMOVE FRONT DISC

5. REMOVE FRONT AXLE HUB GREASE CAP LH

6. INSPECT FRONT AXLE HUB BEARING LOOSENESS

(a) Using a dial indicator, measure the looseness near the center of the axle hub. Maximum looseness: 0.05 mm (0.00197 in.) NOTICE: Ensure that the dial indicator is set at a right angle to the measurement surface. If the looseness in more than the maximum, replace the axle hub.

​

7. INSPECT FRONT AXLE HUB RUNOUT

(a) Using a dial indicator, measure the runout on the surface of the axle hub outside the hub bolt. Maximum runout: 0.08 mm (0.00315 in.) NOTICE: Ensure that the dial indicator is set at a right angle to the measurement surface. If the runout in more than the maximum, replace the axle hub.

8. INSTALL FRONT AXLE HUB GREASE CAP LH

9. INSTALL FRONT DISC

10. CONNECT FRONT DISC BRAKE CALIPER ASSEMBLY LH

11. INSTALL FRONT WHEEL

Torque:

131 N·m {1336 kgf·cm, 97ft·lbf}

12. MEASURE VEHICLE HEIGHT

13. CLOSE STABILIZER CONTROL WITH ACCUMULATOR HOUSING SHUTTER VALVE

 

[radman]

Update: the suspension bits were all checked and confirmed tight, so we're down to CV or hub/bearings.

They also lifted the front, hand spun the wheels, and check for play in the cv and bearings. I don't think there was an obvious winner, but their guess was CV.

Now I have to decide if I want to deal with taking off the wheel spacers and swapping on stock wheels (for warranty repair) or just rolling with it for a while.

I may just hold off if either of those repairs will jack with my fresh alignment.

 

[linuxgod]

CV replacement won't screw up the alignment. Not sure about the hub replacement.

Pulling the spacer does affect the alignment, however it's only temporary and you'll go back to the original specs when you put it back on.

Spacers add stress to the bearings, but have no impact on the CV. So you *shouldn't* need to remove the spacers to have the CV replaced under warranty. (Note: that doesn't mean the dealer won't refused because of "aftermarket mods", but they technically shouldn't). That said you might want to remove the spacer anyway because if it turns out to be a bad bearing they are REALLY expensive (compared to say the bearings on a 60 series). IIRC a new set of bearings and hubs (which Toyota recommends doing together) was about $2400 for parts and labor

FWIW along the same lines the sensor lift could be part of the cause of premature CV failure, so you might want to roll into the dealership in low height mode, lest they claim your sensor mod caused the issue. If the whole CV needs to be replaced (not just rebooted) which I assume is the case one it starts clicking they approach about $1k for the whole deal (incl. labor).

IMO if the CV is clicking I'd get it fixed. You can drive it for a while but I'm fairly sure if it goes it'll grenade and/or break the shaft. Either way it'll leave you stranded. If it's covered under warranty, why risk more damage it?

Side question: I can't recall if you mentioned it somewhere but how long have you had the sensor lift?

 

[radman]

Pulling the spacer does affect the alignment,

didn't know about this.. howso?

if it turns out to be a bad bearing they are REALLY expensive

Oem hubs are $170, bearing assembly is $155ish... no idea why labor would be so high


Yea, plan is to take off the wheel spacers, rear swingarms, and arrive in low mode. My advisor is pretty cool, and said they would just take pictures of the affected Parts and submit those for approval.


Camping trip planned for October 10, so may take it in after that.

Side question: I can't recall if you mentioned it somewhere but how long have you had the sensor lift?

Been on the sensor lift for at least 9 months. No idea when the clicking started.

 

[radman]

Been on the sensor lift for at least 9 months. No idea when the clicking started.

Stupid question: how is a sensor lift different than a 2" lift the LC guys would put on?

 

[linuxgod]

didn't know about this.. howso?

Oem hubs are $170, bearing assembly is $155ish... no idea why labor would be so high

Yea, plan is to take off the wheel spacers, rear swingarms, and arrive in low mode. My advisor is pretty cool, and said they would just take pictures of the affected Parts and submit those for approval.

Camping trip planned for October 10, so may take it in after that.

Been on the sensor lift for at least 9 months. No idea when the clicking started.

I'm not an alignment expert but it's my understanding that the tires affect the alignment, which is why you need to get an alignment done when you get new tires (not just because a correct alignment helps them last longer). I would assume since tire diameter will affect alignment, that offset will have an impact as well. That said my spacer comment may be wrong, or they may have an impact but it may be so negligible that it's irrelevant.

Cost wise, I'm not sure. I had an issue where a mechanic reassembled my vehicle CVs but didn't correctly torque the front axle nuts. Driving on it for ~200 miles caused bearing failure and hub wear. Dealer charged $1600 to do the bearings, or $2400 to do front bearings and hubs. Maybe I got fleeced but every other time I've ever been to that dealer they've been honest and reasonably priced. *shrugs*

I'd say you're likely safe to run as is for your trip, so long as you're not doing any hardcore offroading.

FWIW I'm still surprised your caster setting is negative, and I think you should look at getting everything realigned once you're done. You need at least 4-5 degrees more than what you have. If I had to attribute the CV failure to anything it's the lift + being that out-of-spec running at highway speeds. But it could just be bad luck... I once had a bearing go in my '08 Acura MDX which had maybe 50k miles on it... stuff happens

 

[radman]

I'm not an alignment expert but it's my understanding that the tires affect the alignment,

I've always heard that tires have ZERO affect on alignment

I'm still surprised your caster setting is negative,

I asked about that.... I'm at 1.5 and 1.8 degrees, respectively. there's no negative sign like the steer ahead and rear toe numbers.

 

[afgman786]

It's part of the line.. I circled it cause its easier than trying to word it.

 

[TeCKis300]

Sorry to see you having unexpected CV issues. Hope you can get the warranty repair as the CV is not a cheap part. I don't know how much the dealer charges to swap the part, and it does take some specialized tools to press it out, but it's not a terribly hard job. Probably could be done in 1-2 hrs. A pro could easily do it in under 1 hr.

The wheel spacer and tires do not affect alignment. The CV replacement job also shouldn't affect alignment as they will likely only need to disassemble the lower ball joint bracket.

What @linuxgod might be interpreting is that lift does affect alignment, and large diameter tires does impact suspension geometry, such that alignment may want to be tailored for those changes.

 

[radman]

It's part of the line.. I circled it cause its easier than trying to word it.

That's what we all assumed. Look at the "steer ahead" value. It's "-0.01"

 

[afgman786]

That's what we all assumed. Look at the "steer ahead" value. It's "-0.01"

I would assume that is because it is so close to 0 and the line isn't enlarged so you can't tell without them adding the negative to emphasize. Where with the rest you can tell.

 

[bloc]

So I got to thinking about things when messing with my truck earlier (installing kings !!!!!!) and realized steering direction actually could impact a CV issue.

Due to "ackerman" and its tendency to make the inside wheel in a turn steer sharper, the direction of a turn could make a CV click when turning one direction but not the other. Meaning, in a left turn your left tire turns more than your right one, so the CV angles are steeper, possibly pushing it to a click. Thing is.. you've noticed this going straight.

I just thought of something. Try the same turning procedure with your AHC in high mode. This should isolate any changes to CV angle (not bearing) due to ride height sharpening the CV angles but not putting much more force on the bearings, and make the click happen even sooner. If there is no change, I'd look at bearing.

Either way.. socioeconomic status forces some people to drive hondas/toyotas/etc for many tens of thousands of miles with clicking CVs. I wouldn't expect a catastrophic failure any time soon... I mean, maybe if you romp on it in reverse at full steering lock.. but my gut is you are fine for your trip.



The other issue. Imagine a 3-foot thick wheel spacer. In that hypothetical it could put tons of leverage on your wheel bearings, ball joints, and suspension bushings. Basically, bushing deformation will impact your alignment. A 1-inch spacer? Not so much. You are so close to the stock scrub radius, especially because you have larger than stock tires, it shouldn't really mess with your alignment at all. But as others pointed out simply having anything aftermarket can give the dealer an out for approving the work.


Were those spacer lugs loc-tited when you checked torque? Especially with Red?

 

[radman]

Were those spacer lugs loc-tited when you checked torque? Especially with Red?

Yep! Red. Another reason why I'm not looking forward to taking them off. I haven't rabbit holed on it yet, but it was the stuff that spidertrax provided. It's possible that it's red and won't necessarily need heat to remove.
Are you thinking my torque test wasn't accurate because of the locktite?

I tried in low, but don't have any recent recollection of circling in high. Will do that tomorrow


Also, if I verify clicking going straight, that would rule out CV?

 

[bloc]

Yep! Red. Another reason why I'm not looking forward to taking them off. I haven't rabbit holed on it yet, but it was the stuff that spidertrax provided. It's possible that it's red and won't necessarily need heat to remove.
Are you thinking my torque test wasn't accurate because of the locktite?

I tried in low, but don't have any recent recollection of circling in high. Will do that tomorrow


Also, if I verify clicking going straight, that would rule out CV?

Heat should get them right off. But yes it basically makes torque checks of those lugs impossible.

IMO the only way to truly rule out the CV is to completely straighten it while turning, which may require more work than just driving straight. I’d assume low mode would get you close but you’d have to get under there and look.. it may even go too far the other way.

 

[linuxgod]

Heat should get them right off. But yes it basically makes torque checks of those lugs impossible.

IMO the only way to truly rule out the CV is to completely straighten it while turning, which may require more work than just driving straight. I’d assume low mode would get you close but you’d have to get under there and look.. it may even go too far the other way.

Depending on how/how much the ball/cage is worn, the CV might even click when going straight.

 

[bloc]

Depending on how/how much the ball/cage is worn, the CV might even click when going straight.

That still depends on some angular rotation from the vertical position not being in line, or maybe forward or rearward. IF it is possible to have a CV completely straight (not a given on the vehicle, just putting in low mode will impact camber/caster) there is no movement at all within the joint, it acts as a straight shaft. This should stop all clicking unless maybe you put some huge amount of torque on it. But again, I’m not sure that is even possible to test while installed.

 

[radman]

quick update: first, they gave me the "could not duplicate the noise" , so then I sent the video and offered to go up there and duplicate it for them. Then, I I got word that they ordered a "new passenger front axle assembly". I was expecting this to use my extended warranty, but advisor said it's covered under original powertrain warranty. we shall see

 

[CruiserFan88]

Sounds exactly like a bad CV I had on another vehicle. Barely heard moving forward but exacerbated when turning, only one direction. When a front bearing when out on my CJ it would make noise all the time especially when turning but the sound was very different. Way more metal on metal. When I swapped, several balls had deteriorated in the race and gummed it all up. On the CV, the boot was intact and full of grease but the joint/balls had just failed over time. The car had about 120k on it at the time. No indication of failure from outside.

 

[04UZJ100]

quick update: first, they gave me the "could not duplicate the noise" , so then I sent the video and offered to go up there and duplicate it for them. Then, I I got word that they ordered a "new passenger front axle assembly". I was expecting this to use my extended warranty, but advisor said it's covered under original powertrain warranty. we shall see

Does the video show your larger tires???