Car not moving - gears not engaging

[AtinLango]

In a google search DTC 38 Toyota. I found http://myfirewood.com/TOYOTA/LAND_CRUISER/rm0020e/rm/rm970e/m_di_0127.pdf But it's A750F 1HD-FTE

Try a search with A442

Yes, i had earlier done some google searches for A442F DTC 38, and they suggest that the code is related to ATF temperature sensor malfunction.

But i also disconnected both batteries for about 30 minutes and reconnected. The DTC returned normal after that. I dont know whether the DTC code 38 will appear again after driving.

Nonetheless, we shall try to check the sensors for any issues.

The driveability of the car was probably worse as of yesterday when i last drove out. It was hardly picking power and just shifting erratically.

Many thanks.

 

[AtinLango]

I drove out about for about 5 kms and back home. Driving is the same - erratic gear shifting and loss of power.

I tried to drive with Transfer Case in L, but the car could hardly move, so I changed back to H.

Just checked and DTC 38 is back. Likely I have ATF temperature sensor issue.

 

[2001LC]

If you can't read A/T fluid temperature, through tech stream. Read it with and Infrared gun, held 3" from pan.

 

[Mike NXP]

These symptoms really sound like a transmission that is low on fluid, but based on your previous information it sounds like the dipstick is the correct part and is at the proper level .

Would a bad temp sensor cause these erratic shifting issues ? I'm not sure, wish I could help more.

Does the fluid still seem clean and new or is it burnt up already ?

 

[AtinLango]

These symptoms really sound like a transmission that is low on fluid, but based on your previous information it sounds like the dipstick is the correct part and is at the proper level .

Transmission low on fluid? Well, we are using the dipstick to confirm fluid level. I know the recommended way for checking ATF level, so there we are okay. However, my confusion is that my transmission is type A442F (according to the label in engine bay). This type of transmission, as I understand from all available literature, uses 15 liters of AFT on dry fill. But for us, we are using 12 liters (even this is nearly too full according to dipstick - at max level when hot).

I have considered before to disregard dipstick reading and add 15 liters of ATF dry fill, but my own fears have defeated me. Note that we have dropped the transmission three times so far in three weeks. Every time, we drain it fully (even torque converter) and refill with new fluid - even though the drained fluid looks as good as new. Each ATF filling costs about USD 150. Fluid type and source was recommended by local Toyota dealer.

Would a bad temp sensor cause these erratic shifting issues ? I'm not sure, wish I could help more.

I have read that bad temp sensor can cause i) erratic gear shifting ii) loss of power - going to limp mode iii) degraded performance of torque converter. These symptoms are very consistent with my problem. It will not cost me much to check the temperature sensor, so that is my next move given that it is related to the DTC code I am receiving.

Does the fluid still seem clean and new or is it burnt up already ?

Fluid is very clean. I have changed fluid three times (once for every transmission drop). Everytime we drop and and reinstall transmission, we would test-drive about 10 miles. Because problem would persist, we would drop transmission again (draining and keeping aside all fluid). Upon reinstall, we would put new fluid.

The only time we drained dirty burnt fluid was the very first when I first got the problem. That time, the drained fluid was nasty. I have also kept it just for memory.

See attached picture of fluid colors (bottom black one was the nasty first drain, top pink color is for subsequent ones that we have been draining and keeping aside. even current fluid in trandmission is as pink and new.)

 

[Mike NXP]

Shoot ,sorry I'm not very experienced here. It sounds like you are doing everything right, and with any luck that DTC pointing to a bad sensor may be the problem . I hope that works for you , report back if you are able to replace the sensor .

 

[AtinLango]

Shoot ,sorry I'm not very experienced here. It sounds like you are doing everything right, and with any luck that DTC pointing to a bad sensor may be the problem . I hope that works for you , report back if you are able to replace the sensor .

Thank you very much.

I am very patient and optimistic that we shall ultimately resolve the problem. I am trying to avoid replacing the whole transmission as is being suggested by some mechanics whom I have approached. Transmission replacement should be the last resort if everthing else has failed.

It takes a lot of patience, and I look forward to the day when I tell the success story.

 

[AtinLango]

Some progress this morning. We want to go one step at a time. Instead of removing the ATF temp sensor, which would require removing the oil pan, we disconnected the switch to the ATF temp sensor, cleaned it and put back. Our aim was to rule out the possibility of any dirt interfering with he contacts. While there, we also did the same for the speed sensor. In fact for the speed sensor, we even removed the sensor itself just to see.

Now two things have happened:

1. the DTC 38 has disappeared. We have tested several times after many drive-outs, and it seems to have really disappeared, at least for now.

2. very surprisingly, the car is driving a lot better that it was yesterday. It can push with good power in gear number 1, though it still has an issue shifting from there.

We are not yet there since gears are still not shifting properly. I have disconnected batteries and will reconnect and drive a bit after some hours to see the state. I want to take it on a fairly longer highway drive for better analysis.

 

[AtinLango]

I got another mechanic try to drive the car. His analysis was that the problem is clutch plates and solenoids.

I told him that we just replaced clutch plates, but he said maybe it was not properly done.

I suggested to him that we first try the simpler option of replacing solenoids, then test-drive the car before dropping the transmission to change clutch plates. He is not buying my idea. He says the bad clutch plates will damage the solenoids again.

What do you think about my suggestion?

Note: This particular mechanic is rather interesting. I understand from the person who referred me to him that he is very knowledgeable. But, I say with due respect, that he is not educated (actually illiterate). This makes me a bit nervous. In fact I cannot communicate with him directly because he does not know English, which is our formal language of instruction in all schools and educational/technical institutions. I only communicate with him through an interpreter - which also makes working with him rather unique. So, some goose bumps on me already. I say all this with a lot of respect for the mechanic. I should not be misunderstood.

One important point: the DTC 38 disappeared at one point but came back. Right now I am getting DTC 38 if I test. Unfortunately, I cannot explain the DTC to these mechanics here. They can not believe me, as they know I am not a mechanic.

 

[AtinLango]

For some reason, I later got a lot of DTCs after doing diagnostics again today. I am suspicious that the new mechanic changed something in the transmission since he went under the car and seemingly made some adjustments.

So I got DTCs 38, 62, 63, 64, 65, 77.

I am aware that 62, 63, 64, 65 are related to solenoid malfunctions. DTC 38, of course has been there before, and I know it is related to ATF temperature sensor malfunction. However I do not know what DTC 77 means.

Anyhow, after driving around a bit and testing again, all the other DTCs disappeared, except DTC 38 which is persistent up to now. I think it is time to squarely face the reality of DTC 38 and try to first sort it out by examining the ATF temperature sensor function. This means checking the wiring to temperature sensor, and if found to be fine, then removing the sensor itself and possibly replacing it. To me, this makes logical sense before proceeding to anything else like the solenoids.

I will provide updates as events unfold.

 

[AtinLango]

I have tried to explain to this new mechanic (through an interpreter) that we are getting DTC 38, which means (at least by our current research) ATF temperature sensor malfunction.

The mechanic has said that my finding does not mean that the problem is with the ATF temperature sensor per se. He says that the problem is the clutch plates and solenoids (based on the experience he got while test-driving the car). That the clutch plates affect the temperature sensor, hence the feeling that there is ATF temperature sensor malfunction, whereas not.

He wants to come and pull down the transmission and replace the clutch plates and solenoids. This is quite scary, so I have asked him to hold on as I think through.

Meanwhile, today marks exactly four weeks since I got into this problem.

 

[Mike NXP]

I have tried to explain to this new mechanic (through an interpreter) that we are getting DTC 38, which means (at least by our current research) ATF temperature sensor malfunction.

The mechanic has said that my finding does not mean that the problem is with the ATF temperature sensor per se. He says that the problem is the clutch plates and solenoids (based on the experience he got while test-driving the car). That the clutch plates affect the temperature sensor, hence the feeling that there is ATF temperature sensor malfunction, whereas not.

He wants to come and pull down the transmission and replace the clutch plates and solenoids. This is quite scary, so I have asked him to hold on as I think through.

Looking back to the beginning of your thread, isn't this how it all started?

You had a transmission failure and replaced clutches but then the issue didn't resolve. Maybe the original repair was not done properly since this new mechanic seems to think that may be the issue.

Your troubleshooting logic seems to make sense. Then again, the new mechanic thoughts on the ATF sensor also seem to make sense. It may be something else causing the fault.

You are in a very challenging position. I would see if the new mechanic could offer some guarantee his fix will work. He seems confident but then again it seems like you already did that repair from the start and it didn't fix it.

 

[AtinLango]

Looking back to the beginning of your thread, isn't this how it all started?

You had a transmission failure and replaced clutches but then the issue didn't resolve. Maybe the original repair was not done properly since this new mechanic seems to think that may be the issue.

Your troubleshooting logic seems to make sense. Then again, the new mechanic thoughts on the ATF sensor also seem to make sense. It may be something else causing the fault.

You are in a very challenging position. I would see if the new mechanic could offer some guarantee his fix will work. He seems confident but then again it seems like you already did that repair from the start and it didn't fix it.

Yes, the car first refused to reverse (but eventually did so with persistence) four weeks ago. While driving after that incident, the car lost power and stopped moving. The problem was identified as transmission.

All clutch plates, filter and some other parts in the transmission were replaced.

Car started moving but has persistently continued to have erratic/late gear shifting and loss of power.

Along the way, valve body was opened and cleaned, but problem is still persisting.

Diagnostics persistently shows DTC 38.

Transmission has been dropped thrice so far.

 

[AtinLango]

So i decided ... this my immediate plan of action:

Somebody us coming right now to help me remove the ATF temp sensor. While there, i should also remove the solenoids.

Any pointers on how to do some simple tests on the sensor and solenoids would be appreciated.

The aim is to replace them, but some prior tests would help.

If this fails, i plan to call the other mechanic next week to remove transmission and try to fix it.

 

[AtinLango]

Just removed the four solenoids and temperature sensor.

Not really sure if the last pic is the temperature sensor, but it attaches to a pipe going to radiator. Someone may advise based on the attached pics.

Any help is appreciated on how to do some simple tests.

 

[AtinLango]

So we have tested using battery power and found all solenoids, except timing solenoid, to be defective.

We are still not sure of the temp sensor.

 

[AtinLango]

Tried looking for replacement solenoids. It was not easy.

Ended up getting a matching whole valve body from Landcruiser 80. I was told it was tested on a car directly and it was ok

After the swap, now Reverse gear has failed completely. Also, gears are not shifting in D. It remains in 1

Thinking of dropping transmission once more and replacing clutch plates again.

 

[AtinLango]

Before we drop the transmission to check/replace clutch pates, I thought of really probing the used valve body that we have just installed since I personally did not test it prior. My mechanic is convinced that it was tested on another car (a Landcruiser 80) before he took it.

So I decided to do diagnostics before going to bed last night. I got DTCs 62, 63, 64, 65, 77. Note that DTC 38, which was persistent before, has not appeared again.

I know DTCs 62, 63, 64, 65 are malfunctions about the four solenoids. I do not know what DTC 77 means.

Anyhow, I thought I should may be first clear those errors, so I disconnected the batteries last night. I have just reconnected. Naturally, the error codes have been cleared.

I will later try a short drive and test DTCs again before we move onto dropping the transmission.

One point to note is that I am now re-using the drained transmission fluid for testing the car since I have already replaced new fluid three times before. I thought I should only buy new fluid again after we have resolved the issue.

 

[AtinLango]

Just driven within compound.

Reverse still not picking any power.

Gears 1 and 2 seem to be picking (engaging) really strong since valve body replacement yesterday.

Not had a chance to drive out of home to test numbers 3 and overdrive, but yesterday after valve body replacement, gears were not shifting. I guess it is still the same.

DTCs have cleared right now, but they will likely come back after driving out of home. Will see.

May i ask: which solenoids should we focus on regarding lack of reverse and shifting?

 

[AtinLango]

So the mechanic decided to change transmission oil again, sayng the one inside was burnt. Even changng to new oil did not change anything. Only that I have now so far spent over USD 600 on oil alone.

After that, we opened the pan and removed the solenoids of the "new" valve body that we just replaced. We found two were bad (one timing and lockup). Before that "new valve body was installed a day before, I had insisted that we test the solenoids together, but my mechanic assured me that they had tested and were all okay. So we missed a great opportunity.

Clearly, both the old and new valve bodies had bad solenoids for all the past five weeks that we have been struggling. And using simple logic, the car must fail under that condition.

Right now, we are pretty sure that two solenoids in the "new" valve body are bad. However, the mechanic also insists that we need to check the clutch plates (which I agree) so that we resolve the problem once and for all. Currently, the transmission is being removed to check clutch plates.

Still far from over, but I believe that this should not have been such a big struggle if only the solenoids were checked the very first time the problem happened five weeks ago. In fact, we even think that simply replacing solenoids at that first time could have saved us all the hassle.